Are there major flaws in wing chun?

kehcorpz

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I watched a video (unfortunately not in english) where bus rutten talks about
proper stance when punching and so on.
In the video you see a ring fight between a wing chun person and somebody else who looks like he does boxing or mma. The boxer
knocks him out. What struck me is how the wing chun guy moves. It looks odd and inappropriate for such a fight.

Look at it here, it's at 3:23.


To me it looks pretty obvious that with such a stance he can easily be blown away. Is this guy just doing it wrong or is this
how you're supposed to stand in wing chun?!

In the same video there's a wing chun teacher who says that some people claim that the force comes from the ground but that
this is nonsene. This basically means that the stance plays no role and it makes no difference in punching power wether both
feet are parallel or wether you have 1 foot in front and the other one behind the body.
This would be like saying it doesn't matter if a sprinter starts from a starting block or if he starts in a standing position.
I'm really confused by that.
If I went to a teacher who seriously believes that the feet don't matter this would be a red flag.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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When the other guy is using circular footwork, the WC guy should not just turn with him and be forced into defense mode. Instead, the WC guy should cut in front of his opponent, stop his opponent's circular footwork, and take his control back. This strategy is very important in MA. But not too many people train and make it effective.

When your opponent tries to circle around you, he may expect you just to turn with him. If you suddenly move in and cut in front of him, you will make him to feel very uncomfortable. Your WC "forward pressure" spirit should be used right at this moment.

The WC guy B's correct footwork should be as shown in the following picture.

cut_in_circle.jpg
 
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Eric_H

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Personally, I feel there are huge holes in Ip Man derived WC. It's why I ended up switching out of it and why I think you see the guys doing arguably the best with it have had to mix it with other styles.
 

JowGaWolf

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I watched a video (unfortunately not in english) where bus rutten talks about
proper stance when punching and so on.
In the video you see a ring fight between a wing chun person and somebody else who looks like he does boxing or mma. The boxer
knocks him out. What struck me is how the wing chun guy moves. It looks odd and inappropriate for such a fight.

Look at it here, it's at 3:23.


To me it looks pretty obvious that with such a stance he can easily be blown away. Is this guy just doing it wrong or is this
how you're supposed to stand in wing chun?!

In the same video there's a wing chun teacher who says that some people claim that the force comes from the ground but that
this is nonsene. This basically means that the stance plays no role and it makes no difference in punching power wether both
feet are parallel or wether you have 1 foot in front and the other one behind the body.
This would be like saying it doesn't matter if a sprinter starts from a starting block or if he starts in a standing position.
I'm really confused by that.
If I went to a teacher who seriously believes that the feet don't matter this would be a red flag.
Watch better quality videos with better information. The world is full of stupid people so try to avoid them
 

LFJ

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I watched a video (unfortunately not in english) where bus rutten talks about
proper stance when punching and so on.
In the video you see a ring fight between a wing chun person and somebody else who looks like he does boxing or mma. The boxer
knocks him out. What struck me is how the wing chun guy moves. It looks odd and inappropriate for such a fight.

Look at it here, it's at 3:23.


To me it looks pretty obvious that with such a stance he can easily be blown away. Is this guy just doing it wrong or is this
how you're supposed to stand in wing chun?!

In the same video there's a wing chun teacher who says that some people claim that the force comes from the ground but that
this is nonsene. This basically means that the stance plays no role and it makes no difference in punching power wether both
feet are parallel or wether you have 1 foot in front and the other one behind the body.
This would be like saying it doesn't matter if a sprinter starts from a starting block or if he starts in a standing position.
I'm really confused by that.
If I went to a teacher who seriously believes that the feet don't matter this would be a red flag.

Leung Ting = The feet don't matter guy
Wing Tsun = His made up version of the system
LTWT = Leung Ting Wing Tsun
EWTO = European Wing Tsun Organisation

Avoid these like the plague. :vomit::hurting::hungover:
 

wckf92

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Personally, I feel there are huge holes in Ip Man derived WC. It's why I ended up switching out of it and why I think you see the guys doing arguably the best with it have had to mix it with other styles.

I'd be interested to hear your views on this if you care to share?
For context...how long did you train YM WC before moving away from it? And how long have you been training in your current system (HFY correct?)
 

Phobius

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Leung Ting = The feet don't matter guy
Wing Tsun = His made up version of the system
LTWT = Leung Ting Wing Tsun
EWTO = European Wing Tsun Organisation

Avoid these like the plague. :vomit::hurting::hungover:

Full of it again? Ever since the 90's as far as I am aware footwork is key to WT.

Taking things out of context and make a video of it is not a very good base for discussion.

He did not say stance does not matter. Just that power does not come from ground. You have to generate power or your opponent does. The ground only acts as a surface to reflect force if need be.

Granted I do not remember the video it was taken from.

But LFJ, I believe WT as I know it holds more footwork than what I have heard from other lineages. Then again that does not mean anything.

Stop being full of crap.
 

geezer

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If there are reasons to avoid those organizations, it has nothing to do with "feet not mattering". Leung Ting is very demanding when he trains footwork. I know since he was my Sifu for many years.

That silly-looking jumping-punching demo was something I saw LT do here in Arizona too. Back in the 80s. It was his way of refuting the teachings of another well known sifu who claimed that you couldn't hit without rooting into the ground. Sure rooting helps, but LT was showing that a good WC man can release powerful force even in the least advantageous position imaginable -- namely when he is in the air and his feet aren't even touching the ground. And he was right.

Now, you could make a case against LTWT and also the EWTO based on disagreements about lengthy curriculum, costly tuition, or other business practices. There is another forum that is dedicated to that kind of thing. Here we don't do "system bashing" or "fraud-busting". For what it's worth I reported that post (#5). :cool:
 
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kehcorpz

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Can somebody tell me if this arguing about which lineage is best and which lineage sucks is only in wing chun or is it the same problem
in all martial arts?
I find this stuff very discouraging. It's like everybody thinks that his wing chun is best and all others suck.
I also often read stuff like "there are secret techniques which nobody knows or only very few know cause ip man only taught them to select people".
If this is true then why even bother with wing chun?! why try to learn something where important stuff is missing cause the inventor of it wanted to
keep it secret? Seriously, this upsets me.

Maybe it's also true that in wing chun there are only very few styles or teachers which are good and the rest sucks.
But if this is so then why waste time with it? I'd want to learn something which I know is good and which I know works
and not have to worry about wether the stuff which I learn is good or not. :(

To me it seems as if everybody tries to separate himself from the rest.
For example one school which I checked out online also says that they changed stuff from traditional wing chun and that
they improved certain things. Maybe it's true or maybe their stuff sucks as much as the rest and they simply try to make it
appear better by changing a few things but if it really works or not could only be found out by directly testing it to other
martial arts but who actually does this?
Which wing chun instructor invites other martial artist into his school and then they all fight against each other to see
who's best?! Does anyone do this and risk losing his reputation?

I mean as long as they all stay among each other and do their drills every week they can feel like their stuff is totally awesome
but it can as well totally suck. This is like a basketball team which practices every week and they only play against each other
and try to improve their techniques and in reality they have no idea how good other teams are cause they never played against
any of them.
 

JowGaWolf

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Can somebody tell me if this arguing about which lineage is best and which lineage sucks is only in wing chun or is it the same problem in all martial arts?
So far I've only seen this conflict in Wing Chun. People in other martial art systems recognize, accept, and embrace the fact that different lineages may have different perspectives and approaches about their fighting system. Jow Ga from my lineage is slightly different from the Jow Ga in Virginia and it's slightly different from the Jow Ga in Australia. This is only natural as Sifu's will be drawn to different aspects of Kung Fu. Some may like kicks more than another school so their system has more kicks in it. Some may like certain applications within Jow Ga and as a result tend to have forms that have that application in it, but it is all still Jow Ga.

The Wing Chun community at least in Martial Talk seem to have this purist perspective about their art. If things aren't done exactly their way then it's not "real" Wing Chun.

why try to learn something where important stuff is missing cause the inventor of it wanted to
keep it secret?
I don't think the important stuff is necessarily missing it's just that the practitioner has to be willing to understand their system beyond the Purist Mentality. I'm only saying this from the perspective of how Jow Ga is. We have techniques in our form that aren't clear until additional information is giving about the application. I can literally show a technique in one of my forms that is missing the beginning and I think this was done to keep it a secret from outsiders. If the technique is applied as shown in the form then it will never work. If one small adjustment is made then it will work in application. If I explain to you what the application does then you can most likely figure it out if you take the time to do it and actually test it out in an effort to make it work. If you keep an Purist mindset then that technique will always be a "secret." This is where it seems that some Wing Chun students get into trouble. A recent discussion earlier this year about "Force flow" described a concept that other martial arts systems understood, but some Wing Chun practitioners are just now understanding. As a result they thought they discovered something new, but in reality they hadn't.

Sure rooting helps, but LT was showing that a good WC man can release powerful force even in the least advantageous position imaginable -- namely when he is in the air and his feet aren't even touching the ground. And he was right.
As someone who practices techniques of not being on the ground when hitting, I can tell you that it's not about "powerful force" of the punch. If you slow the video down you can see that he jumps into the punch. When you jump forward into a punch you are no longer hitting with the power of the punch. Forward motion when punching = hitting with the mass of your body. This is a concept that seems to be difficult to explain to some Wing Chun practitioners. It's the same concept that Boztepe showed when he shoulder bumped that guy in the video.

Wing Chun Practitioners seem to always take the weakest stances for receiving a punch to the chest which makes it look more powerful than what it is. If the guy in the video was in a bow stance, when the other guy was jumping in the air then, he wouldn't have moved back like he did. If the guy hadn't jumped forward then that punch would have been as weak.
 

wckf92

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Can somebody tell me if this arguing about which lineage is best and which lineage sucks is only in wing chun or is it the same problem
in all martial arts?.

If you are interested in learning WC then why care about other MA's infighting and bickering?


"there are secret techniques which nobody knows or only very few know cause ip man only taught them to select people"..

Rumor has it that since its inception, only two people from each generation are taught everything from A to Z.

but if it really works or not could only be found out by directly testing it to other
martial arts but who actually does this?

Correct. Application is the only way to verify the truth. And if you want to train ANY style or system...then YOU MUST DO THIS to answer your own questions about whether the stuff you are learning 'works' or not.
 

KPM

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The Wing Chun community at least in Martial Talk seem to have this purist perspective about their art. If things aren't done exactly their way then it's not "real" Wing Chun.

.

Who here, other than our 2 resident WSLVT "true believers", has displayed that attitude? :cool:
 
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Dylan9d

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Who here, other than our 2 resident WSLVT "true believers", has displayed that attitude? :cool:

It's weird because here in Holland the WSLVT practitioners I have met and trained with were very open-minded and the opposite of those 2 purists you are refering to KPM........weird that within the same branch attitudes can differ so much.


P.S. I'm eating Chinese food while typing this ;)
 
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JowGaWolf

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Who here, other than our 2 resident WSLVT "true believers", has displayed that attitude? :cool:
I've seen more than just the 2 you are referring to. It's just not as bad as those 2 who tend to take up the spotlight lol. Those 2 know how to beat a dead horse.
 
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Dylan9d

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This is the guy I had a couple of sessions with, a very good teacher and a very nice and open minded guy, he practices over 25 years now (the bald guy).

It's just that WC/VT/WT doesn't go that well with my Silat....

 
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Dylan9d

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What Silat do you practice?

Mix, as all Silat styles :)

I studied with the Fam. Ingram, and mainly Jim Ingrams son Raymond, from Amerindo, and I did some Eskrima here in Holland, some private one on one training.

Then went to Krav Maga for a couple of years and started teaching a mix of all that under my own, and current name, Ilmu Buka Beladiri.
 
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Marnetmar

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The biggest flaw in WC is lack of proper sparring against a resisting opponent. Period.

Also frankly looking at that video, the issue to me seems less to do with WC guy's footwork and more to do with how he wasn't even protecting his face, but maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.

Imo the WC "guard" position ought not be used as an on-guard position but only to make a bridge when the opportunity arises.
 
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geezer

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So far I've only seen this conflict in Wing Chun. People in other martial art systems recognize, accept, and embrace the fact that different lineages may have different perspectives and approaches about their fighting system.


Apparently you have moved in some pretty positive and enlightened martial arts circles, because I've seen and experienced the same kind of extreme factionalism you mentioned in many other martial arts besides Wing Chun. For example, back in grad school, a friend of mine from New Orleans was working on his black belt test in Japanese Shotokan under some famous old Japanese sensei named Nakayama or something. To keep up his training while in school here in Arizona, he attended a dojo run by another famous old Japanese sensei named Koyama. When one sensei found out that he was training with the other (I forget which was which --this was back in the 80s) he was asked to leave the dojo! I've seen similar feuds in Kempo, TKD, ...even Tai Chi and Aikido for goodness sake. :(

So it really depends on the people involved. We've got a lot of good people on this forum. We shouldn't let a few contentious individuals ruin this forum. Just ignore them and keep contributing in a positive way. :)

Wing Chun Practitioners seem to always take the weakest stances for receiving a punch to the chest which makes it look more powerful than what it is. If the guy in the video was in a bow stance, when the other guy was jumping in the air then, he wouldn't have moved back like he did. If the guy hadn't jumped forward then that punch would have been as weak.

No argument really. What you see is, after all, a demo! It's a showy attempt designed to illustrate a concept through exaggeration, not to teach a specific technique. ;)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Most people may only pay attention on the WC inward stance YJKYM. Actually, whether your toes should point inward or outward depend on your opponent's foot sweep (or low roundhouse kick) direction. If your opponent sweep (or low roundhouse kick) your foot

- between your legs, you should point your toes inward.
- outside of your legs, you should point your toes outward.
 

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