Are there major flaws in wing chun?

[Juany118]

Moving forward but evading out along an angle is obviously different from moving forward and cutting in along an angle. The direction of body mass momentum and the resulting position and effect on the opponent aren't the same.

Simply moving out of the opponent's "kill zone" does nothing to stop them from refacing. VT tactics are to cut into the opponent's attacks and cut off their ability to reface while sustaining attack on them. Triangle footwork on the dummy cuts directly in from the flanks, baseline to point, with full body mass behind the attacks.

They are the same, perhaps I am explaining it poorly. Let me try again.

My Sifu teaches us to see ourselves as the "point" simply because every person has to start combat from where they are standing. We are still moving in from the flank, hence my explaining that the dimensions of the triangle, can change as your actions and the actions of the opponent dictate via their synergy. The shape of the triangle itself isn't fixed, it can be quite "skinny" (for lack of a better term) as you move in, now from a flank, that "point" is simply to visualize where your movement from in a dynamic combat situation, nothing more

The purpose you explain and the purpose my Sifu explains are identical in practice. You are still cutting in from the flanks, you still have full body mass behind your attacks. You are not simply dancing around your opponent as you seem to infer. Simply because he teaches we are at the point doesn't change any of these practical principles you also speak of. The only difference is how the two of you visualize the triangle to achieve the same goal.

 

[KPM]

I understood what you are saying fine Juany118. What you are really both saying is that you have a triangle with you at one point, with the opponent at another point, and the third point of the triangle is lateral to both of you. So you are going to step out along one side of the triangle to that lateral point, and then back in along the other side of the triangle into the point where the opponent is standing. So essentially, you were both not quite right, but still saying the same thing!

 

[Juany118]

I understood what you are saying fine Juany118. What you are really both saying is that you have a triangle with you at one point, with the opponent at another point, and the third point of the triangle is lateral to both of you. So you are going to step out along one side of the triangle to that lateral point, and then back in along the other side of the triangle into the point where the opponent is standing. So essentially, you were both not quite right, but still saying the same thing!

Maybe (tired, landscapers just woke me up lol) I am taught I always at the pinnacle of the triangle, the opponent at the foundation but only to start. This is essentially how you visualize opening the encounter.

Since your opponent is not a fixed point, they will always be moving once the fight starts, the triangle's shape will change and their position on the triangles will also change.

Maybe the fight dictates I suddenly need to step across rather than in (say because he made his knee vulnerable and I want to take that out with a kick). I always however am stepping off from a point to visualize it. This photo doesn't quite explain it (a little to basic and static obviously) but I picture me starting at the bottom point of the white triangle, the opponent at the "flat top" of the triangle. The dynamics of the fight then spin out from there, but you are always keeping your centerline to the opponent from the point you are on. Maybe you use a yellow triangle instead of he white next because of what the opponent dictated? So be it, but you are always are on a starting point.

 

[LFJ]

That seems an undue convolution of the theory, but if you say it's the same, alright. After all, no one thinks about moving triangles when fighting.

For me, the Triangle Theory and footwork is as on the dummy. We are moving laterally along the baseline, then cutting in toward the point with the appropriate lead leg once the flank to enter from is determined. Simples.

 

[Juany118]

That seems an undue convolution of the theory, but if you say it's the same, alright. After all, no one thinks about moving triangles when fighting.

For me, the Triangle Theory and footwork is as on the dummy. We are moving laterally along the baseline, then cutting in toward the point with the appropriate lead leg once the flank to enter from is determined. Simples.

The difference may be that my Sifu is teaching things from a "combative" angle. When we do these drills we aren't on the dummy, it's two students facing off, each sees the other in the "opponents" position. For the purposes of the foot work drill (and safety) he limits us to specific maneuvers we apply of course. This creates a different dynamic than using the dummy in the way you describe.

 

[anerlich]

Can somebody tell me if this arguing about which lineage is best and which lineage sucks is only in wing chun or is it the same problem in all martial arts?

Kyokushin Karate went through some rocky times after Mas Oyama's death.

Where I live, there are several splinter organisations, I have friends in two of them. One claims that the 6th dan who heads the other organisation is a fraud. The other claims that the 9th dan who heads that org (and has been running Kyokushin here since the 1960s) and a counterpart in Japan each agreed to promote the other from 8th to 9th dan, and that both are basically ancient cripples who can't train. Both organisations have excellent karateka within them.

TKD here went through some weird times about 20 years ago too.

Arts that compete tend to have less overt shenanigans going on, though in MMA here a number of the principals have enormous problems coexisting in the same room. And TKD and Koykushin compete. However, their claims tend not to become too grandiose as regular competition tends to show quite uneqivocally whose stuff works and whose doesn't work as well. People tend to get to know each other and make friends across organisational boundaries, which also calms it all down.

Wing Chun has lineage disputes going back to the 1960s that most would be aware of, but the bickering only really started its exponential increase with the advent of internet forums.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Hey Andrew! Welcome to the forum!

 

[anerlich]

Thanks! Glad to be here? Too soon to tell

 

[Nobody Important]

I watched a video (unfortunately not in english) where bus rutten talks about
proper stance when punching and so on.
In the video you see a ring fight between a wing chun person and somebody else who looks like he does boxing or mma. The boxer
knocks him out. What struck me is how the wing chun guy moves. It looks odd and inappropriate for such a fight.

Look at it here, it's at 3:23.

To me it looks pretty obvious that with such a stance he can easily be blown away. Is this guy just doing it wrong or is this
how you're supposed to stand in wing chun?!

In the same video there's a wing chun teacher who says that some people claim that the force comes from the ground but that
this is nonsene. This basically means that the stance plays no role and it makes no difference in punching power wether both
feet are parallel or wether you have 1 foot in front and the other one behind the body.
This would be like saying it doesn't matter if a sprinter starts from a starting block or if he starts in a standing position.
I'm really confused by that.
If I went to a teacher who seriously believes that the feet don't matter this would be a red flag.

Wing Chun guy's stance was back weighted and hands in a low Man Sau expecting to handle & receive the incoming force. That was a bad decision. The other guy was using more of a 50/50 weight distribution & forward pressure. He basically steam rolled the Wing Chun fellow. Poor choice of stance. Seems to me that the Wing Chun guy went in with a defensive mind set and was expecting to play Chi Sau once he received force. That's a big problem in the Wing Chun community. Chi Sau does not translate to boxing, especially from a distance. Until this is realized more Wing Chun people will continue to get knocked out due to defensive mind set and reliance on Chi Sau to handle opponent.

 

[geezer]

That was just another pathetic case of a guy with no ring experience trying to be Donnie Yen in the IP Man Movie. Wing Chun is Chinese Boxing for god's sake. That's why I respect what guys like Alan Orr are trying to do. His guys may not always show as much WC as I would like to see, but they know how to make things work in real competition.

BTW ....WC/WT/VT was never meant to be passive and defensive. This clip was a satirical parody of Leung Ting, Keith Kernspecht, and the EWTO. I have no contact with the EWTO, but Leung Ting always taught that the best defense was offense, and that in fighting you keep it simple and aggressively take the fight to the opponent. Sure didn't see that here.

 

[Eric_H]

Maybe (tired, landscapers just woke me up lol) I am taught I always at the pinnacle of the triangle, the opponent at the foundation but only to start. This is essentially how you visualize opening the encounter.

Since your opponent is not a fixed point, they will always be moving once the fight starts, the triangle's shape will change and their position on the triangles will also change.

Maybe the fight dictates I suddenly need to step across rather than in (say because he made his knee vulnerable and I want to take that out with a kick). I always however am stepping off from a point to visualize it. This photo doesn't quite explain it (a little to basic and static obviously) but I picture me starting at the bottom point of the white triangle, the opponent at the "flat top" of the triangle. The dynamics of the fight then spin out from there, but you are always keeping your centerline to the opponent from the point you are on. Maybe you use a yellow triangle instead of he white next because of what the opponent dictated? So be it, but you are always are on a starting point.

If I follow your image: when in doubt... use the triforce?

 

[Eric_H]

Thanks! Glad to be here? Too soon to tell

Hendrik has already flamed out here, and you were smart enough to miss it. If that doesn't bring a smile to your face, I'm not sure we can help you

 

[sgraves]

there are holes in every martial art but with wing chun people fell to realize that speed in wing chun is a very big part of what needed that is a major factor of it

 

[geezer]

there are holes in every martial art but with wing chun people fell to realize that speed in wing chun is a very big part of what needed that is a major factor of it

Wing Chun is well known for fast hands.

Personally I think speed is often overemphasized. Some of my kung-fu brothers have very fast hands, but I am more impressed when someone disrupts your stance, takes over centerline and then punches you so ....slowly ... that you see it coming but you are so jacked up that you can't stop it.

 

[sgraves]

Wing Chun is well known for fast hands.

Personally I think speed is often overemphasized. Some of my kung-fu brothers have very fast hands, but I am more impressed when someone disrupts your stance, takes over centerline and then punches you so ....slowly ... that you see it coming but you are so jacked up that you can't stop it.

it is but that comes from practice but people think thatto just into wing chun and then everything works instead seeing you have to really develop hand speed for the art and really work on things like any martial art

 

[geezer]

....and really work on things like any martial art[/QUOTE]

Yep.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wing Chun is well known for fast hands.

Personally I think speed is often overemphasized.

Agree! Besides the WC system, the preying mantis system and the Zimen system are also famous in "speed".

One day a 8 steps preying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang was sitting on his chair and watched his students in training in a Taipei park in Taiwan.

- A Zimen guy bowed to him,
- stepped in,
- attacked his fingers at Wei's chest,
- stepped back,
- bowed again, and
- left.

The preying mantis system has very fast hand, but the Zimen system is even more famous by it's fast hand. When you train your Zimen system "通三关(Tong San Guan) - break through 3 joints", you need to swing your arms around your body so fast that you can't even see your own hands.

After I have cross trained the Zimen system. One day I challenged a TKD guy for sparring. I used the Zimen "乱抽麻(Luan Chou Ma) - pull threads out of a fabric" and attacked his chest with my fingers before he could block it. He looked at me and asked me what I was doing that for.

In the real world, it's not like if you can touch your opponent's body first, you win and he loses. Unless you can hold a knife and use speed to stab it into your opponent's chest, or attack your fingers at your opponent's eye balls with speed, speed without power is useless.

 

[sgraves]

Wing Chun is well known for fast hands.

Personally I think speed is often overemphasized. Some of my kung-fu brothers have very fast hands, but I am more impressed when someone disrupts your stance, takes over centerline and then punches you so ....slowly ... that you see it coming but you are so jacked up that you can't stop it.

yea i does suck ive had my grandmaster do that to me

 

[Juany118]

That was just another pathetic case of a guy with no ring experience trying to be Donnie Yen in the IP Man Movie. Wing Chun is Chinese Boxing for god's sake. That's why I respect what guys like Alan Orr are trying to do. His guys may not always show as much WC as I would like to see, but they know how to make things work in real competition.

BTW ....WC/WT/VT was never meant to be passive and defensive. This clip was a satirical parody of Leung Ting, Keith Kernspecht, and the EWTO. I have no contact with the EWTO, but Leung Ting always taught that the best defense was offense, and that in fighting you keep it simple and aggressively take the fight to the opponent. Sure didn't see that here.

Yeah I think that is simply proof of what I have heard before, though I can't remember the one who coined the saying, "WC is becoming a Chi Sau culture, fighting is not Chi Sau."

 

[Juany118]

Wing Chun is well known for fast hands.

Personally I think speed is often overemphasized. Some of my kung-fu brothers have very fast hands, but I am more impressed when someone disrupts your stance, takes over centerline and then punches you so ....slowly ... that you see it coming but you are so jacked up that you can't stop it.

Yeah I think people sometimes get a little over blown because the confabulate actual hand speed with the fact the stance naturally put you closer to the target, and the punch are straight, result in a fast strike regardless of hand speed.