Does WSLVT exist?

[KPM]

Guy wrote this on the punching thread:

My system is called VT. It is the system taught by YM. There is no special different thing called WSLVT- there is only VT, and this is what I practice. It is your business if you also practice VT

He seems to be saying the "Ving Tsun" spelling uniquely defines Ip Man's own personal version of Wing Chun and that Wong Shun Leung taught EXACTLY what Ip Man taught. He believes that WSL did not update, personalize or change Ip Man's Wing Chun in any way. Therefore there is no "WSLVT", only Ip Man "VT". So anyone doing Wing Chun differently that what is being done by those taught by WSL is not really doing Ip Man's "VT". If they have changed things in any way, then it is no longer "VT"....which is Guy's way to say Ip Man Wing Chun.

So does WSLVT exist? Did WSL teach EXACTLY what Ip Man was practicing? You be the judge!

First, that classic footage of Ip Man doing the forms:

Wong Shun Leung doing Siu Nim Tao:

Wong Shun Leung doing Chum Kiu:

Wong Shun Leung doing the dummy:

Just a note.....that original footage of Ip Man was put up by Sam Kwok. Kwok has learned from both Ip brothers and I am sure would maintain that HE is doing exactly what Ip Man taught! From what I have seen, he does things quite differently from WSL people!

 

[LFJ]

lol

You just need to drop this. Guy has his opinion. You have yours.

His is based on solid ground like system coherence and functionality and witnessing this passed on intact through several generations.

Yours is based on Appeal to Majority and Wishful Thinking fallacies, and video footage of a sick old man on the brink of death.

Forms are not the system. Until you learn the system in detail, you won't have a clue where Guy is coming from or even understand the videos you're looking at.

Go learn it from someone who knows it well, then come back and pick up this conversation.

 

[SaulGoodman]

You are an arrogant, patronizing individual aren't you? Must be wonderful being able to speak to us ill educated practitioners from such an enlightened position. All you and Guyb seem to do is create ill feeling and conflict on seemingly every thread you participate in. This is supposed to be a "discussion" forum yet you slap people down with provocative statements like "forms are not the system". Are you kidding me? Do you truly believe that? I doubt WSL would have agreed with that. Speaking of which Didn't WSL say (I'm paraphrasing here) "don't be a slave to Wc, make it your own" which makes guyb's views on never deviating from the original teachings null and void imo.

The thing that attracted me to wing chun in the first place is that it's a TRUE art of "self expression" not a "painting by numbers" art where lots of mindless clones are produced on a conveyor belt who never shift paradigms because they would be "violating" the core tenets of the system. Wing chun is a system you then make your own "style" from that systems tools. Moy Yat, Chu Sheung Tin, Augustine Fong, Leung Ting etc are all those individuals PERSONAL EXPRESSIONS of what they learnt from their teachers. WSL is absolutely no different, he learnt the SYSTEM from yip man and taught his own style/expression of that system based on his own preferences/experiences/shortcomings. That's how it SHOULD be, although as a teacher we should tailor what we teach to help each student and not force them to adopt a mindless dogma regardless of whether that individual can perform the art that way or not. This certainly explains why there are so many "strains" of yip man wing chun imo.

 

[guy b.]

Hi KPM

 

[LFJ]

This is supposed to be a "discussion" forum yet you slap people down with provocative statements like "forms are not the system". Are you kidding me? Do you truly believe that?

That's a slap down and provocative? lol

You think if you learn to stand there and do the movements you have learned the system? No, no, no.

Many people have learned the forms, learned to play chi-sau and other drills, yet don't have a clue about free fighting strategy.

They merely have an empty shell of VT training methods and theorize about fighting while playing chi-sau games. That is sadly the general state of Wing Chun today, like it or not.

Speaking of which Didn't WSL say (I'm paraphrasing here) "don't be a slave to Wc, make it your own" which makes guyb's views on never deviating from the original teachings null and void imo.

He said that in a specific context which everyone takes it out of in order to make it mean all interpretations are of equal value and okay. He was not saying that at all.

 

[guy b.]

Careful LFJ, this forum is on a war footing when Saul Goodman gets rolled out

 

[LFJ]

Careful LFJ, this forum is on a war footing when Saul Goodman gets rolled out

I don't understand people who base their standards on footage of YM with one foot in the grave. The how and why has to be learned directly from someone who understands it. And the forms alone tell us nothing about someone's understanding of VT fighting strategy and tactics, which are the ultimate goal of training this fighting system. Without them, you just have empty forms and rudderless drills. Forms are not the system.

Look at YM's feet while doing SNT. By the end of the form his feet are turned out. Is that some secret stance introduced in the latter sections?

And in the first section of CK, with the shifting bong-sau. When doing the right arm, he keeps his elbow high before turning. Then when doing the left arm, he drops the elbow low before shifting to bong. Which is the "right way"? Two different people can point to the same footage and "justify" their way, but doing so is plain stupid.

 

[KPM]

And in the first section of CK, with the shifting bong-sau. When doing the right arm, he keeps his elbow high before turning. Then when doing the left arm, he drops the elbow low before shifting to bong. Which is the "right way"? Two different people can point to the same footage and "justify" their way, but doing so is plain stupid.

And yet.....you guys have maintained that Wong Shun Leung was doing exactly what Ip Man was doing. There is no WSLVT...just VT! And if anyone deviates from what WSL was teaching, then it must not be VT and should be called something else! THAT is just plain stupid as your last post illustrates!

 

[LFJ]

And yet.....you guys have maintained that Wong Shun Leung was doing exactly what Ip Man was doing. There is no WSLVT...just VT! And if anyone deviates from what WSL was teaching, then it must not be VT and should be called something else! THAT is just plain stupid as your last post illustrates!

lol, How do you figure?

For WSL to have been teaching the system as taught to him by YM, you want him to do the forms like a sick old man on the brink of death who's left arm doesn't agree with his right arm?

 

[Phobius]

lol, How do you figure?

For WSL to have been teaching the system as taught to him by YM, you want him to do the forms like a sick old man on the brink of death who's left arm doesn't agree with his right arm?

I think he is simply stating what is your point of view, rest of this community seems to share a view that YM taught many people the system and they all teach that same system to others. That there is no pure version of it, simply different lineages due to different interpretations.

You are the one saying WSL is teaching the only true WC/VT and that all else made changes themselves.

Sad to say but you have no proof other than a quote where WSL said he teaches what he was taught by YM. A quote that does not mean he teaches a system identical to what YM was doing, but rather that he is trying to get everyone to learn exactly what he learnt from YM.

To assume what others learned is bad because of it is arrogant and ignorant. WSL had his interests, his personality and his way of fighting. He was already a fighter before studying for YM and as such had a different base compared to many of YM's other students. Perhaps WSL was not taught a more pure version because a pure version would not serve WSL very well in terms of the questions he asked to YM. If someone else had other questions they got other answers compared to WSL, but they also had different scenarios for which they were learning WC.

So saying WSL said he teaches only what YM taught him does not mean that it is pure WC/VT. Nor does it mean anyone else has a pure version either, perhaps YM was just trying to make fighters of them all. Everyone had their area of focus because there were areas they needed to improve. Doubt WSL had to learn things closely related to boxing for instance.

Take what works, throw away the rest. Does not mean the rest is crap, it just means it is useless to you, do not assume you are similar to someone else.

 

[KPM]

lol, How do you figure?

For WSL to have been teaching the system as taught to him by YM, you want him to do the forms like a sick old man on the brink of death who's left arm doesn't agree with his right arm?

So you are admitting the very real and common sense idea that Ip Man probably taught things differently and did things differently at various stages of his Wing Chun career?

 

[LFJ]

So you are admitting the very real and common sense idea that Ip Man probably taught things differently and did things differently at various stages of his Wing Chun career?

No! How the hell do you figure that?!

I'm saying you are basing form standards on the performance of a sick, old man who was, with all due respect, practically dead and couldn't even hold a stance.

 

[LFJ]

You are the one saying WSL is teaching the only true WC/VT and that all else made changes themselves.

To make changes suggests they had the system to begin with. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that YM taught very few people the system, especially the free fighting strategy and tactics.

Sad to say but you have no proof other than a quote where WSL said he teaches what he was taught by YM.

I don't believe it just because he said so. I'm quite confident it is true based on the incredible system coherence and functionality of it compared to the useless mess most others teach.

To assume what others learned is bad because of it is arrogant and ignorant.

Most Wing Chun in the world is bad because the system is broken and it doesn't work.

 

[KPM]

No! How the hell do you figure that?!

I'm saying you are basing form standards on the performance of a sick, old man who was, with all due respect, practically dead and couldn't even hold a stance.

And yet.....Leung Ting studied with Ip Man at the end of Ip Man's career but before he was sickly and near death. Leung Ting learned a back-weighted stance from Ip Man, which actually matches what we see in those videos. Sam Kwok uses a back-weighted stance that also matches pretty closely to what we see in those videos. Both Kwok and Ting can come closer to saying they do exactly what Ip Man did than Wong Shun Leung....given the evidence we have to go by. I'm not saying they do, I'm just saying it is stupid to say that YOUR version of Ip Man's Wing Chun is the only TRUE version....and that the system doesn't allow for variations as Saul pointed out. WSLVT exists, just as LTWT exists. To say you are doing exactly what Ip Man taught and that anyone that sees things a little differently from you must not be doing Ip Man's "VT" is stupid. And you and Guy still wonder why every thread you participate in degenerates into an argument? Its because you are convinced that you are right and therefore everyone else that is different from you must be wrong!

 

[guy b.]

There is no WSLVT...just VT!

Correct, you are getting there

 

[Phobius]

Correct, you are getting there

Now you are just trolling. Not something that is expected from an adult.

 

[Transk53]

So where EWTO come in then, if there is only VT?

 

[LFJ]

And yet.....Leung Ting studied with Ip Man at the end of Ip Man's career but before he was sickly and near death. Leung Ting learned a back-weighted stance from Ip Man, which actually matches what we see in those videos. Sam Kwok uses a back-weighted stance that also matches pretty closely to what we see in those videos.

Do they do a YJKYM with the toes pointed out too? Do their left arms disagree with their right arms?

Both Kwok and Ting can come closer to saying they do exactly what Ip Man did than Wong Shun Leung....given the evidence we have to go by.

lol

If they do a form exactly like a guy on his last breaths, good for them. They watched the video and mimicked it. They don't have the same understanding of VT as a fighting system. It's not even a debate.

If you think the crap in this video is what YM decided to teach at the end of his career, and you would take this guy's advice on fighting seriously... I have no more words.

 

[LFJ]

This is the Eight Spazzing Knife form YM decided to teach at the end of his career too?

 

[KPM]

^^^^ You don't read very closely do you LFJ? What I actually said was:

"Both Kwok and Ting can come closer to saying they do exactly what Ip Man did than Wong Shun Leung....given the evidence we have to go by. I'm not saying they do, I'm just saying it is stupid to say that YOUR version of Ip Man's Wing Chun is the only TRUE version."

So to spell it out in plain English for you....I do not think that Leung Ting or Sam Kwok are doing exactly what Ip Man was doing any more than I believe that Wong Shun Leung was doing exactly what Ip Man was doing. That should be pretty clear. So your last 2 posts were just trolling.