Anti-grappling.

[ballen0351]

Anyway, I'm kinda glad Hanzou posted the Hayes clip and the follow-up with the other ninja group. It really opened my eyes, and made this thread really lively! Admit it guys, Hanzou is a little edgy, but give him some credit. He makes this place interesting.

Naa but Im not allowed to say what he is on the forum

 

[ballen0351]

:lol:

Yeah, that's about the response I anticipated.

And?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would just like to point out that Hayes is the founder of To Shin Do and has no affiliation with the Bujinkan or any ninjutsu organization for that matter.

Also the person in the second video who was showing what was wrong with what Steven Hayes did is Simon Yeo who is a Bujinkan member (Shihan) and I believe is now a Roger Gracie Brazilian Jiujitsu black belt. (might still be brown)

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

What Geezer said....


It is nice to see the video by Stephen Hayes and critique as to why someone who has grappling skills (predominantly) BJJ doesn't like it. Then to see Simo Yeo's take and then two more clips of a similar yet slightly different move where again grappling exponents explain why they liked it. Tony did a nice breakdown of the one clip and explained that while it looked similar it was very different and because of that very effective! These are things we can all learn from!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The only thing that would be even better is if Mr. Hayes or a To Shin Do instructor was here to explain their thinking on the technique so that we could get some even clearer understanding of why he did it that way. Maybe someone could invite Steven Hayes to come and join the conversation...

 

[Steve]

I agree totally. I've never said otherwise. My issues was someone posting his opinion as FACT that this could never work. That's simply not the case. I wouldn't try this technique because there are far better ways of accomplishing the same goal. The same could be said for many techniques. When I teach handcuffing I show several different ways some I like more then others. Some I teach and have never used in real life I teach it because the training commission says I must. Hayes himself said this wasn't the preferred technique. So even he agrees with you. However thay doesn't mean it can't work. It reminds me of the kids football game where the QB take the ball and slowly walks right past the defense. It was so unorthodox it should never work but it did because the other kids were like huh what's he doing. Sometimes crazy things work. I dressed like a clown once and picked up prostitutes. None of them thought I was a cop because I was dressed as a clown as stupid as it looked it worked.

Again it's not my place to tell him what he should and shouldn't be teaching. His style his rules if I disagree I would not learn his style.

I agree but it doesn't makenit a fact that what he taught can't work

I think we can draw some pretty solid conclusions based upon areas of expertise. It's specious to suggest that our life experiences can't inform our opinions. Us BJJers don't know everything. But if i'm an expert in anything, it's the guard.

 

[ballen0351]

I think we can draw some pretty solid conclusions based upon areas of expertise. It's specious to suggest that our life experiences can't inform our opinions.

Right I have no problem with opinions when presented as such but to claim you opinion in an undeniable fact well Ill disagree

Us BJJers don't know everything.

lol could have fooled me with some of the stuff I read on here

But if i'm an expert in anything, it's the guard.

But are you an expert in To Shin Do? Since thats what he teaching. And can you make a really informed opinion from a 3 min clip. Id say you would have a much better leg to stand on if you say then entire class or then entire lesson including any corrections he was giving to his students during the application process. For example Ive watched a high level Goju teacher give a demo and he held his hand a certain way. Then during the application portion he explained his wrist is messed up and he cant move his hand into the correct position but he corrected us to do the technique the correct way even though he physically cant. So perhaps Hayes explained the technique further in more detail later and its not on the you tube clip. OR perhaps he didnt and your right since I wasnt there I dont know

 

[Hanzou]

But are you an expert in To Shin Do? Since thats what he teaching.

Not really. He's teaching a Toshindo technique against the guard, which is not a Toshindo technique. The problem is that if you understand how the guard works, you realize that Toshindo's solution is faulty and inapplicable for its proposed purpose; To defeat a skilled grappler who has you in a leg hold.

And can you make a really informed opinion from a 3 min clip. Id say you would have a much better leg to stand on if you say then entire class or then entire lesson including any corrections he was giving to his students during the application process. For example Ive watched a high level Goju teacher give a demo and he held his hand a certain way. Then during the application portion he explained his wrist is messed up and he cant move his hand into the correct position but he corrected us to do the technique the correct way even though he physically cant. So perhaps Hayes explained the technique further in more detail later and its not on the you tube clip. OR perhaps he didnt and your right since I wasnt there I dont know

Considering that his students began doing the technique exactly as he performed it, your theory here is absolute nonsense.

 

[drop bear]

Right I have no problem with opinions when presented as such but to claim you opinion in an undeniable fact well Ill disagree

lol could have fooled me with some of the stuff I read on here


But are you an expert in To Shin Do? Since thats what he teaching. And can you make a really informed opinion from a 3 min clip. Id say you would have a much better leg to stand on if you say then entire class or then entire lesson including any corrections he was giving to his students during the application process. For example Ive watched a high level Goju teacher give a demo and he held his hand a certain way. Then during the application portion he explained his wrist is messed up and he cant move his hand into the correct position but he corrected us to do the technique the correct way even though he physically cant. So perhaps Hayes explained the technique further in more detail later and its not on the you tube clip. OR perhaps he didnt and your right since I wasnt there I dont know

So that guard pass is a to shin do thing. And not that Stephen just can't grapple. The style is at fault.

We can't make an assessment on what we haven't seen. Only what we have. And three minutes is plenty.

 

[ballen0351]

Not really. He's teaching a Toshindo technique against the guard, which is not a Toshindo technique.

How do you know what is and isn't a To shin do technique? He's the founder and he's teaching it so..... If he claimed it was something else I missed it in the clip.

The problem is that if you understand how the guard works, you realize that Toshindo's solution is faulty and inapplicable for its proposed purpose; To defeat a skilled grappler who has you in a leg hold.

I'm not sure why you keep assuming he's going to use it against a skilled grappler. As you said it won't work on a skilled grappler but a not so skilled one like maybe someone that learned grappling on the internet for 25 bucks a month by watching videos.

Considering that his students began doing the technique exactly as he performed it, your theory here is absolute nonsense.

No what's nonsense is you think you know what happened in the rest of the class since all you saw was a 3 min clip. But whatever man you believe what you want I don't care since I don't train To shin do and don't know Mr Hayes and really don't care what you think or believe.

 

[ballen0351]

So that guard pass is a to shin do thing. And not that Stephen just can't grapple. The style is at fault.

We can't make an assessment on what we haven't seen. Only what we have. And three minutes is plenty.

I have no idea what kind of thing it is since I don't train in To shin do. Three min is plenty bit not the whole story. But again I'll leave you boys be.

 

[Steve]

Right I have no problem with opinions when presented as such but to claim you opinion in an undeniable fact well Ill disagree

Were this only true. As I said before, the technique shown is questionable. That is a fact.

lol could have fooled me with some of the stuff I read on here

You see what you want to see, and everything else is invisible to you.

But are you an expert in To Shin Do? Since thats what he teaching.

No

And can you make a really informed opinion from a 3 min clip.

In this case, yes.

Id say you would have a much better leg to stand on if you say then entire class or then entire lesson including any corrections he was giving to his students during the application process.

In your opinion. Right? You're just sharing your opinion here, and as you acknowledge knowing nothing about grappling, your opinion on this topic is uninformed by your own admission. So, the real question here is why you're refusing to listen to people who actually have an opinion on the topic that is informed. Why are you more willing to write stories about unlikely scenarios in which Hayes has a hidden disability than accept other peoples' expert opinions? Seems suspicious to me.

 

[Hanzou]

How do you know what is and isn't a To shin do technique? He's the founder and he's teaching it so..... If he claimed it was something else I missed it in the clip.

To-Shin Do | Ground Fighting I
To-Shin Do | Ground Fighting II
To-Shin Do | 30 Essential Ground Skills

If you notice, the only time Guard is employed in Toshindo is to train how to escape it. In Bjj, the Guard is an essential position that contains submissions, transitions, sweeps, control, etc. Bjj teaches you not only how to escape the Guard, but also use it in self defense. Unless I'm missing something here, Toshindo doesn't teach you any of that. They simply teach you how to escape the position. Essentially, Toshindo treats the Guard the way Bjj exponents treat the headlock.

I'm not sure why you keep assuming he's going to use it against a skilled grappler. As you said it won't work on a skilled grappler but a not so skilled one like maybe someone that learned grappling on the internet for 25 bucks a month by watching videos.

So essentially you're saying that if a Toshindo person winds up in the Guard of a Bjj blue belt and above or an experienced MMA fighter they're doomed?

No what's nonsense is you think you know what happened in the rest of the class since all you saw was a 3 min clip. But whatever man you believe what you want I don't care since I don't train To shin do and don't know Mr Hayes and really don't care what you think or believe.

Well I know that Hayes doesn't have a wrist injury or some disability. If he did, I highly doubt they would include that footage in a training video series that they're charging $300 for. :uhoh:

 

[drop bear]

I have no idea what kind of thing it is since I don't train in To shin do. Three min is plenty bit not the whole story. But again I'll leave you boys be.

OK if at some stage it turns out that he was distracted by the students,has some debilitating injury,is doing some completely different move to a guard pass,qualified all of those moves later on,was showing how to fight a guy who is only trained on you tube and that there may be somone out there that I could actually catch with that move.

I will reconsider my opinion.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Bottom line is I agree its not the best move. I wouldnt try it. BUT I also not willing to write it off as total crap either off a 3 min youtube clip.

I would assume that the 3 min video is a summary of the technique and the process of its development and a display of the finished product.

 

[ballen0351]

Were this only true. As I said before, the technique shown is questionable. That is a fact. You see what you want to see, and everything else is invisible to you. NoIn this case, yes.In your opinion. Right? You're just sharing your opinion here, and as you acknowledge knowing nothing about grappling, your opinion on this topic is uninformed by your own admission. So, the real question here is why you're refusing to listen to people who actually have an opinion on the topic that is informed. Why are you more willing to write stories about unlikely scenarios in which Hayes has a hidden disability than accept other peoples' expert opinions? Seems suspicious to me.

I've listened to your opinion and agreed with it on its face it's not the best idea to try. But your opinion is just that. My opinion is I can't make a complete judgement on something from a 3 min clip on YouTube. If that's it and there is nothing more then so be it. But as I said in my experience sometimes things are not as they appear like an injury or or disability which are not "unlikely" since I've seen it happen. I also don't know anyone here to consider them an "expert" are you an expert? Perhaps you are but I don't know you well enough to make that call. I certainly don't know other "experts" posting here. So I'm sorry I don't bow down and accept what is being put out here as fact by strangers on the internet. Others have made the EXPERT claim recently like the expert woman's MMA fighter from across the pond that was just called out and hasn't been back since.

 

[ballen0351]

To-Shin Do | Ground Fighting I
To-Shin Do | Ground Fighting II
To-Shin Do | 30 Essential Ground Skills

If you notice, the only time Guard is employed in Toshindo is to train how to escape it. In Bjj, the Guard is an essential position that contains submissions, transitions, sweeps, control, etc. Bjj teaches you not only how to escape the Guard, but also use it in self defense. Unless I'm missing something here, Toshindo doesn't teach you any of that. They simply teach you how to escape the position. Essentially, Toshindo treats the Guard the way Bjj exponents treat the headlock.

And? I'm not sure what you are getting at? I never said BJJ guys were not good at the guard I didn't know that was the question. And since To shin do isn't a grappling art I'm not shocked they are less invested in ground game.

So essentially you're saying that if a Toshindo person winds up in the Guard of a Bjj blue belt and above or an experienced MMA fighter they're doomed?

I'd imagine if alot of styles ended up in the guard of an experienced BJJ or MMA fighter they would be in trouble. That's not their strong suit. That's why I train to not end up in the guard. That's also why even in the clip he said the technique wasn't the first choice perhaps they have other ways to pass the guard. I know a few ways none are like what Hayes shows but as I said My plan is to not end up there in the first place. That's probably a to shin do guys plan as well but since I don't train In it I really Don't know

Well I know that Hayes doesn't have a wrist injury or some disability. If he did, I highly doubt they would include that footage in a training video series that they're charging $300 for. :uhoh:

Well I've seen other videos of highly respected Karate guys that have injuries that still put out tapes and books and fly all over the world doing seminars with bad body parts so......

 

[Hanzou]

And? I'm not sure what you are getting at?

That your arguement about the Guard being part of the Toshindo system is false.

I never said BJJ guys were not good at the guard I didn't know that was the question.

I was showing you the difference between a system that uses Guard purely for learning to escape/avoid it, versus a system that uses Guard as an essential fighting position.

And since To shin do isn't a grappling art I'm not shocked they are less invested in ground game.

Actually it is a grappling art, since it has throws, holds, and ground fighting. The ground fighting was kind of amusing, but that's besides the point.

I'd imagine if alot of styles ended up in the guard of an experienced BJJ or MMA fighter they would be in trouble. That's not their strong suit. That's why I train to not end up in the guard. That's also why even in the clip he said the technique wasn't the first choice perhaps they have other ways to pass the guard. I know a few ways none are like what Hayes shows but as I said My plan is to not end up there in the first place. That's probably a to shin do guys plan as well but since I don't train In it I really Don't know

Clearly its not, since they devote an entire section of their groundfighting system to escaping and countering the Guard. It's pretty clear that their intention is to teach you how to escape the Guard of a skilled practitioner. The fact that they fail at it isn't really the point.

Well I've seen other videos of highly respected Karate guys that have injuries that still put out tapes and books and fly all over the world doing seminars with bad body parts so......

Yeah, but that isn't the case here, since Hayes clearly wasn't injured.

 

[ballen0351]

That your arguement about the Guard being part of the Toshindo system is false.



I was showing you the difference between a system that uses Guard purely for learning to escape/avoid it, versus a system that uses Guard as an essential fighting position.

You must have misunderstood Ive never said the guard was part of the Toshindo system. I have no idea what is in their system since before this thread I never even knew it existed. I said I assume what hayes is teaching the escape is part of his system since he invented the system

Actually it is a grappling art, since it has throws, holds, and ground fighting. The ground fighting was kind of amusing, but that's besides the point.

If you say so. I have all of that in Goju but I dont consider it a grappling art its an art that has grappling in it.

Clearly its not, since they devote an entire section of their groundfighting system to escaping and countering the Guard. It's pretty clear that their intention is to teach you how to escape the Guard of a skilled practitioner. The fact that they fail at it isn't really the point.

Again if you say so. I dont know anthing about Toshindo other then a 3 min youtube clip so If you know more about the goals of To shin do very well then.

Yeah, but that isn't the case here, since Hayes clearly wasn't injured.

I didnt say he was I said sometimes things are not what they appear.

 

[Steve]

I've listened to your opinion and agreed with it on its face it's not the best idea to try. But your opinion is just that. My opinion is I can't make a complete judgement on something from a 3 min clip on YouTube. If that's it and there is nothing more then so be it. But as I said in my experience sometimes things are not as they appear like an injury or or disability which are not "unlikely" since I've seen it happen. I also don't know anyone here to consider them an "expert" are you an expert? Perhaps you are but I don't know you well enough to make that call. I certainly don't know other "experts" posting here. So I'm sorry I don't bow down and accept what is being put out here as fact by strangers on the internet. Others have made the EXPERT claim recently like the expert woman's MMA fighter from across the pond that was just called out and hasn't been back since.

Accusing me of fraud? Come on, ballen. That's low.

But I'm not the only one drawing the same conclusion. I know you like to poke at certain people on the boards, myself included. But consider that when you imply that I'm a fraud and suggest that my "EXPERT claim" is equivalent to DonnaTKD's, you're also lumping in Brian VanCise, Tony Dismukes, Drop Bear, Hanzou, Punisher and the other people who share the same "expert" opinions based upon their similar, actual experience. Whether you think I'm actually a competent purple belt in BJJ or not, I still wonder why you refuse to accept the considered opinions of people who are more credible and well respected in this particular area. It doesn't make sense to me, particularly when you're more than happy to accept without question the opinions of people who admit to being as unfamiliar with the situations in question as you are.