Some more thoughts on "anti grappling".

Kung Fu Wang

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More important- to develop your own wing chun game.

If hook punch and uppercut can give your grappler opponent more trouble (in my experience, it does), why do you not want to include those skill set into your toolbox even if it may not belong to your WC system?
 
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K-man

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This exact discussion is happening over in the general MA section in the MMA/TMA topic.

Some people can't wrap their minds over the fact that a grappler is more proficient at an RNC or any choke in general, than a striker knocking someone out with a neck strike.

The simple reality, as you explained above, is that a grappler has actually used that technique for its precise purpose countless times in training. The striker more than likely has never actually used the neck strike on anyone at full force. Thus when the poop hits the fan, the grappler is far more likely to pull off his moves than the striker is.
:BSmeter:
 

Vajramusti

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If hook punch and uppercut can give your grappler opponent more trouble (in my experience, it does), why do you not want to include those skill set into your toolbox even if it may not belong to your WC system?
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?????? Goes by different names and some differences in details- but
the hook and the upper cut is in the wc "too; box!"- in hand forms and the jong!!
 

yak sao

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?????? Goes by different names and some differences in details- but
the hook and the upper cut is in the wc "too; box!"- in hand forms and the jong!!

Ahhh, you beat me to the punch....so to speak
 

Kwan Sau

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If hook punch and uppercut can give your grappler opponent more trouble (in my experience, it does), why do you not want to include those skill set into your toolbox even if it may not belong to your WC system?


They ARE in the WC toolbox
 

Danny T

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?????? Goes by different names and some differences in details- but
the hook and the upper cut is in the wc "too; box!"- in hand forms and the jong!!
Yeap we do. Or at least in the wc we practice in. We have straight punches, overhand punches, uppercut punches, backfist punches. We also use the palm, the fingers, the thumb, the thumb side of the hand, the little finger side of the hand, the wrist, the forearm, the elbow, the upper arm, the shoulder, the head, the body, the hip, the upper leg, the knee, the lower leg, the ankle, the inside of the foot, the outside of the foot, the top of the foot, and the bottom of the foot. And a few others not mentioned. If, if and only if that is the most available and efficient tool to use at the time.
 
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geezer

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They ARE in the WC toolbox

There are a lot of things in the WC toolbox. And some of us readily borrow stuff from other people if it fits well with WC. Here are a few simple examples: If you get thrown, swept or knocked down, how do you get up? The following guy, who by the look of his uniform comes from one of the "WT" groups, shows two approaches. The first (2:04-2:10) is an aggressive, forward moving stand-up leaving the hands free to punch, much as I was first taught by LT, Emin and others. The problem is you don't create distance and you are unstable if your opponent jams you. The second version he shows (2:45-4:00) I find much more practical. It's the simple BJJ "stand-up in base" --although he doesn't say so.


Now here's another guy, an eclectic kenpo/FMA practitioner who has a slightly different twist on the standup in base that actually works pretty well from a striker's perspective. It offers good stability against a jam or charge, but seems to allow a more upright posture and better striking options than the classic BJJ stand-up. Like the WC guy, this guy's objective is to get back into a standing, striking range rather than to pursue the ground fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m09aJY-Uz7g&list=UUAVYkYPeAbXRwX5nxplPsfQ
 
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Danny T

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There are a lot of things in the WC toolbox. And some of us readily borrow stuff from other people if it fits well with WC. Here are a few simple examples: If you get thrown, swept or knocked down, how do you get up? The following guy, who by the look of his uniform comes from one of the "WT" groups, shows two approaches. The first (2:04-2:10) is an aggressive, forward moving stand-up leaving the hands free to punch, much as I was first taught by LT, Emin and others. The problem is you don't create distance and you are unstable if your opponent jams you. The second version he shows (2:45-4:00) I find much more practical. It's the simple BJJ "stand-up in base" --although he doesn't say so.


Now here's another guy, an eclectic kenpo/FMA practitioner who has a slightly different twist on the standup in base that actually works pretty well from a striker's perspective. It offers good stability against a jam or charge, but seems to allow a more upright posture and better striking options than the classic BJJ stand-up. Like the WC guy, this guy's objective is to get back into a standing, striking range rather than to pursue the ground fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m09aJY-Uz7g&list=UUAVYkYPeAbXRwX5nxplPsfQ

Geezer; learned these same variations and some others from silat and kali from years ago. First introduced to the silat variations back in the 70's. All are good and when understanding the principles of jamming and creating space from these positions I believe you will find many systems utilize these actions in some form.
 
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geezer

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Geezer; learned these same variations and some others from silat and kali from years ago. First introduced to the silat variations back in the 70's. All are good and when understanding the principles of jamming and creating space from these positions I believe you will find many systems utilize these actions in some form.

Absolutely. I pick up a lot of stuff in the FMA group I study with. It's an eclectic group that includes people from a lot of MA styles ranging from young guys who compete to old geezers like me. It's also a great because I am just a student there. No need to play "sifu" and always be right. Wearing that instructor hat too much can make it hard to learn new stuff. Ya know, I think I might start a thread about that.
 

ShotoNoob

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Anyone who is interested in "anti-grappling" should watch the fights of Chuck Liddell. He was a master of using his wrestling skills to negate his opponent's takedowns so that he could finish fights with his striking.
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Liddell used the classic wrestler sprawl, TMU. Nothing anti-grappling helped Machida @ UFC Fight Night 70 against Romero. Romero grabbed Machida 3rd round & literally manhandled Machida to the mat. Hellbows followed sending Machida to dreamland. It was ugly.....
 

Steve

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Liddell used the classic wrestler sprawl, TMU. Nothing anti-grappling helped Machida @ UFC Fight Night 70 against Romero. Romero grabbed Machida 3rd round & literally manhandled Machida to the mat. Hellbows followed sending Machida to dreamland. It was ugly.....
By manhandling, of course you mean a perfectly timed and executed ankle pick followed by technical striking on the ground.

If you like high level striking and grappling, and appreciate technique, it was beautiful.
 

Vajramusti

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If hook punch and uppercut can give your grappler opponent more trouble (in my experience, it does), why do you not want to include those skill set into your toolbox even if it may not belong to your WC system?
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My wing chun has a hook punch formula in the mok jong and biu gee- it is not froma western boxing stance.
 

ShotoNoob

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By manhandling, of course you mean a perfectly timed and executed ankle pick followed by technical striking on the ground.

If you like high level striking and grappling, and appreciate technique, it was beautiful.
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Steve, I am a noob when it comes the grappling science you have here @ MT. Machida's TD defense had been reputed to be excellent. I think, however, that assessment was colored by the quality of his earlier-on opponents....
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Romero, in my eyes (not your eyes) used physical aggression & strength to power Machida off his feet & onto the ground bodily. A judo exhibition it was not.... Kinda a hug & plow to the ground....
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Ending goes to my limited response (re-grappling) that as a traditional karateka, I never want to go to the ground with a bigger, stronger, heavy guy on top of me.... And whatever Machida's anti-grappling / grappling skill owing to his reputed sumo, bjj, whatever; Romero nullified Machida by that Round #3 TD very quickly.
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Steve, maybe The Machida / Romero fight would make a good direction for this thread, since we had a fully resisting opponent (Machida) along with two separate grappling styles (Machida-BJJ reportedly / Romero Olympic Wrestling reportedly). WHAT COULD MACHIDA, WHAT COULD HAVE THE DEFENDER AGAINST ROMERO DONE DIFFERENTLY...? Your thoughts....
 

Jake104

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When did this little gem of a thread pop up? Where have I been? Looks like I have ten pages to read . Hopefully there are a lot of pictures!
 
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