Anti-Grappling Techniques...

Never_A_Reflection

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I'm in full agreement with the general consensus--the only "anti-grappling" is grappling. You don't have to become a world-class BJJ competitor, you just need to learn (and train with resistance fairly regularly) some basic positional and submission escapes, with the intention of getting back to your feet. The difference between a BJJ white belt and a BJJ black belt is vast, but in MMA, I have seen white belts successfully escape from the ground and regain their feet against BJJ black belts, simply through such basic methods. When it comes down to it, that is going to be the best way to escape such a situation. The dirty tricks could help, and if you're about to die then you don't really have much to lose by trying them, but if you are in a bad position and resort to such tactics, you may end up still in a bad position with a now even more angry assailant. I'm no grappling expert, with only about 4 years of Judo training, and I am quite confident in my ability to not only prevent people from doing these things to me (I have rolled with eye gouges, pressure points, throat grabs, groin strikes, and biting allowed on a few occasions), and also in my ability to do them do you much more effectively from a superior position, if you haven't built any basic grappling skills.
 

oftheherd1

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@Kung Fu Wang I am only surprised the head of the university questioned that in the first place. Apparently in China heads of universities are on the path to liberalism as in the USA.

A thought - there have been some comments about how there is no need to train to eye gouge, or other "dirty tricks." In sport sparring, things that kill or maim probably have no place unless they can be completely controlled. A difficult thing to get all practitioners to do.

In a real fight, where you are defending yourself, instead of having been the aggressor, I think an opponent deserves what they get. But while you may not need to know that an eye gouge is very good done with fingers, how will you know when you can get your fingers where you want them? That is what the training in eye gouges should do.
 

stonewall1350

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Honestly? As a grappler, and a decent one, I would say space. But if you aren't willing to grapple to learn how to do defense...you are screwed.

[VIDEO]

You gotta get in the gym and actually learn what to do and how to handle it. 6 months of training with the secret service (the boxer in the video) isn't going to keep a great grappler from taking you down and whipping your ***.

Or like George Zimmerman...a year of poorly done MMA training isn't going to keep a street fighting 17 year old scrawny punk from somehow managing to get full mount and raining blows down on you (per witness statement).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

TMA17

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I'm in full agreement with the general consensus--the only "anti-grappling" is grappling. You don't have to become a world-class BJJ competitor, you just need to learn (and train with resistance fairly regularly) some basic positional and submission escapes, with the intention of getting back to your feet. The difference between a BJJ white belt and a BJJ black belt is vast, but in MMA, I have seen white belts successfully escape from the ground and regain their feet against BJJ black belts, simply through such basic methods. When it comes down to it, that is going to be the best way to escape such a situation. The dirty tricks could help, and if you're about to die then you don't really have much to lose by trying them, but if you are in a bad position and resort to such tactics, you may end up still in a bad position with a now even more angry assailant. I'm no grappling expert, with only about 4 years of Judo training, and I am quite confident in my ability to not only prevent people from doing these things to me (I have rolled with eye gouges, pressure points, throat grabs, groin strikes, and biting allowed on a few occasions), and also in my ability to do them do you much more effectively from a superior position, if you haven't built any basic grappling skills.

Old post here but this is sort of what I am going for. About to sign either with a IKMA school that has an extensive ground system with a focus of getting back up, or learning Gracie BJJ. As much as I've been told to try them out first, they don't give you enough time to really know.

On top of that, some schools like the Gracie BJJ school, lock you into a minimum 6 month contract vs some schools that are month to month. With a family I like the month to month option.

My goal remains the same though in that I must learn a ground system to some degree. Without it you're in trouble.

Two or more of the instructors at the IKMA school are 5th degree black belts in Judo and Combat JJ, which was incorporated into the IKMA curriculum. It makes the IKMA school much more attractive than just learning Gracie BJJ.
 

jobo

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Old post here but this is sort of what I am going for. About to sign either with a IKMA school that has an extensive ground system with a focus of getting back up, or learning Gracie BJJ. As much as I've been told to try them out first, they don't give you enough time to really know.

On top of that, some schools like the Gracie BJJ school, lock you into a minimum 6 month contract vs some schools that are month to month. With a family I like the month to month option.

My goal remains the same though in that I must learn a ground system to some degree. Without it you're in trouble.

Two or more of the instructors at the IKMA school are 5th degree black belts in Judo and Combat JJ, which was incorporated into the IKMA curriculum. It makes the IKMA school much more attractive than just learning Gracie BJJ.
Is this the common ma paronia ? In what way are you in " trouble" if you don't learn a ground system ?
 

Hanzou

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Old post here but this is sort of what I am going for. About to sign either with a IKMA school that has an extensive ground system with a focus of getting back up, or learning Gracie BJJ. As much as I've been told to try them out first, they don't give you enough time to really know.

On top of that, some schools like the Gracie BJJ school, lock you into a minimum 6 month contract vs some schools that are month to month. With a family I like the month to month option.

My goal remains the same though in that I must learn a ground system to some degree. Without it you're in trouble.

Two or more of the instructors at the IKMA school are 5th degree black belts in Judo and Combat JJ, which was incorporated into the IKMA curriculum. It makes the IKMA school much more attractive than just learning Gracie BJJ.

Uh, I'm not aware of any Gracie-affiliated schools that would lock you into a 6-month contract. What schools are you looking at specifically?

Also any notion of "combat JJ" should be a red flag. What does that even mean?

Run, dont walk to your nearest Bjj school. If that is not available, find a legit Judo school that only teaches Judo. Dont waste your time with nonsense.
 
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Kababayan

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Judo is awesome but can come with a higher risk of concussions. BJJ is great but some schools strictly focus on tournament training. That's the issue that I'm currently having at my BJJ school (I've written about that before.) Not all BJJ schools teach students how to deal with stand-up attacks. I'm a big believer in practical grappling for self defense (get off the ground quickly) but Krav doesn't always offer a multitude of grappling techniques. I guess what I'm saying is that cross-training with someone who is skilled at applying techniques in a multitude of scenarios would be the way Iwould go. One of my Krav instructors is a Gracie guy, so the grappling he teaches is quality, while at the same time taught through a filter of the Krav philosophies. My vote would be to train with the Krav guy who has a background in grappling. That way you are getting what you are looking for; a solid ground game taught with the self defense philosophy that you are interested in learning.
 

FriedRice

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- When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.

My leg muscles will be flexed and it shouldn't hurt that much from the bite. I will try to claw your eyeballs out as my legs continue into the triangle. What am I wearing? Shorts or jeans? Try biting through jeans....it hurts your teeth more than doing any damage. My nuts are underneath my penis. You might strike the top of my penis shaft and that doesn't really hurt. I have more chances of hurting my nuts with my own thighs crushing them then you would, punching at them.

- Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek. When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.

I would release grip to gouge your eyes with both hands while driving forward with legs. Once my thumbs are on each eye socket, I drive them in and downward into your eyeballs as I hoist/post up. The cheek bite shouldn't even be that big of a deal other than not pretty for a few months.

Here's a kid getting bit by someone crazy guy who seems well versed at fighting dirty + biting.....so he ain't like the average SD guy who never really bit someone nor fought for their life before. This guy's clearly a felon with multiple convictions + lots of fights. But look at the bite marks afterward, not even that bad and no blood at all. Watch the biting at 10:30 mark.


- Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.

In side control, my knee is driven into your side with constant pressure. That nut grabbing hand is necessary for you to shrimp out. The moment it goes for my nutsack, you've lost significant defense.... I switch hips and start kneeing you in the head/face while pulling your head into each knee to give them extra spice....like the Muay Thai skip knees but on the ground.

- If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)

Again, the nutsacks are under the penis and you're just striking the area above the penis shaft. I've been sidekick their plenty of times w/o a cup on. Seems like you don't train BJJ, because when you roll a lot, you'd notice that most of the Brazilians don't wear cups and they have huge penises, hahaa.....but you never notice it/feel it because it's not in a position to flap around, and the nuts are hiding under it, like it's a cylindrical shield. How do you think BJJ'ers don't crush our nutsacks every time we roll, especially with our own thighs? And there's rolling every class. The nuts seems to have a mind of their own and fluidly seek the safest spot at all times. Lots of BJJ dudes don't wear cups, which I think is gross, but it's true.
 
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FriedRice

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Most of these anti-grappling schemes have been answered and refuted by Royce Gracie in the early UFC's where you can do all of these moves w/o being disqualified and win the whole thing...minus fines of $1,000/each infraction.....but if you win the UFC's $60,000 prize at the end and lost...say $10k in fines; that's still like 4-10X more than what a prize fighting, Martial Artists makes in a year back then and even now.....where many prize fighting MA'ists fight for a plastic trophy usually. Yet Gracie wiped the floor with everyone, using old school BJJ. BJJ has since evolved like crazy and the levels of MMA fighters are just leaps & bounds superior now, over the old G's, 25-30 years ago of Royce's days.
 

TMA17

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I wish catch can wrestling or just wrestling in general was more available. Wrestlers dictate where the fight goes. I'm 42 now with a family and the reason I haven't committed to anything other than the last MMA school I attended is because I want to stick with something this time. I've bounced around too long and I'm not doing anything which is part of the problem.

IKMA emphasizes not going to the ground and their ground game is taught by instructors that have advanced BBs in JJ/Judo.
 

DanT

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Hello everyone,
This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here. So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened? Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.

I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have. I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated. Here is what I have collected so far. Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.) The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students.

- When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up.

- Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek. When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up.

- Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.

- If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)

Any more added to the list is greatly appreciated. Helpful responses only please. Thank you,

Kab
By using these techniques, you may create a flinch response, but you need to be proficient with what to do AFTER they flinch, apart from trying to scoot away and stand up, you're in big trouble. I'm not a BJJ black belt, but I do know some submission wrestling and Shaolin Grappling. What will happen is, you'll grab his groin, he'll flinch, then strangle you. You need to know how to follow up without delay after. I think the most important element is knowing how to reverse and escape the basic positions (mount, side control, back control, etc). The best way is go to a BJJ or MMA school and learn some grappling, or continue to practice the techniques the escapes that you learned with the added element of these strikes.
 
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Kababayan

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I forgot that I was the one who initially posted this topic over a year ago. I began training in BJJ shortly after posting the question. Because of the recent responses to my initial question, I would like to post some of my observations after a year of training in BJJ. These are, respectfully, my own observations based on my experience so they do not reflect the experiences at all BJJ schools. I have posted some of these before on other thread replies, so I apologize if some of this is repetitive. I'll bullet point my observations to keep my thoughts straight:

- Some background of the dojo where I train: The BJJ dojo is a respected BJJ school that teaches through the filter of tournament success. It is a Gracie/Machado-style focused school and the instructor is a respected BJJ tournament judge and heavy in the tournament scene. The instructor talks about using BJJ in self defense, but the techniques are primarily designed for tournament submission. I would rather train with instructors who are primarily focused on self defense, but the people at the dojo are really good people, and sometimes it's difficult to find people that you feel comfortable training with.

- Most of the BJJ training begins while sitting down. The act of "going through the entire self defense scenario" isn't taught at all. Meaning, defenses against punches are rarely taught...if at all. When it is taught, it's isn't taught enough to make students feel aware of what to do if a person is coming at with a desire to attack. My own thoughts is that most of the students are not trained to be prepared to deal with the entirety of a self-defense situation from beginning to end

- I think that the higher ranks in BJJ, just like most martial arts, would feel more comfortable dealing with "dirty tactics" because of the years of training and bumps and bruises. The higher-ranks, I'm sure, would react by responding with what they are taught in training. In BJJ that would probably include getting tighter and going for a quick submission. For other arts that may include striking, pushing, biting back, eye gouse, running, etc. I say that because I don't think that there is one specific way that all grapplers would deal with dirty tactics, especially if those defenses aren't regularly trained.

- I have found that the element of surprise can be a huge advantage over an opponent, no matter the martial art. I've told this story before, but I was training with a BJJ Back Belt from standing position. He went to take me down and I accidentally jabbed him in the face (my instant reaction). He buckled to his knees and I apologized profusely. He was expecting me to sprawl, because that was the filter in which he was trained. The surprise of my jab would have given me time to run away.

- My accidental attempts at "dirty tactics" while grappling: I think a lot of how a grappler will deal with dirty tactics can be based on his or her individual personality. I was rolling with a Blue Belt and I accidentally elbowed his groin while I was in his guard. He released me and curled up. I was rolling with a Brown Belt and he immediately got me in a triangle choke...I could not have tried to bite him if I had even thought about it. He was too fast. I was rolling with another Blue belt and my accidental headbutt to his jaw caused him to release. There are fellow BJJ students that I know that I could rip at their ears and they would let go out of sheer surprise at what I've done, and there would be BJJ students who would get very angry and break my arm in an armbar. I guess my point is, I have found that there isn't one universal answer as to how grapplers will deal with dirty tactics, but that it is based more on the individual make-up of a person. A lot of it is theoretical until it happens to that individual student.

- Ultimately, in my "a little over" one year, I have observed that there is a strong correlation with the amount of experience a BJJ student has and how they deal with dirty tactics. The higher ranks deal with them better than students year 1-3. I guess it would be like that in any art. A lot of it has to do with the personality make-up of the student, but I would imagine that the same could be said for the aggressiveness as to which the dirty tactic is applied.

Again, this is just from my own perspective.
 

Tony Dismukes

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- Most of the BJJ training begins while sitting down. The act of "going through the entire self defense scenario" isn't taught at all. Meaning, defenses against punches are rarely taught...if at all. When it is taught, it's isn't taught enough to make students feel aware of what to do if a person is coming at with a desire to attack. My own thoughts is that most of the students are not trained to be prepared to deal with the entirety of a self-defense situation from beginning to end
Speaking as someone who trains BJJ primarily as a martial art, rather than as a sport, it makes me sad that so many schools have gone down this route. I'd rather teach my students to be able to handle a self-defense situation first, then let them explore the complexities of tournament competition later. Too many schools seem to take the opposite approach.
 

Hanzou

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I forgot that I was the one who initially posted this topic over a year ago. I began training in BJJ shortly after posting the question. Because of the recent responses to my initial question, I would like to post some of my observations after a year of training in BJJ. These are, respectfully, my own observations based on my experience so they do not reflect the experiences at all BJJ schools. I have posted some of these before on other thread replies, so I apologize if some of this is repetitive. I'll bullet point my observations to keep my thoughts straight:

- Some background of the dojo where I train: The BJJ dojo is a respected BJJ school that teaches through the filter of tournament success. It is a Gracie/Machado-style focused school and the instructor is a respected BJJ tournament judge and heavy in the tournament scene. The instructor talks about using BJJ in self defense, but the techniques are primarily designed for tournament submission. I would rather train with instructors who are primarily focused on self defense, but the people at the dojo are really good people, and sometimes it's difficult to find people that you feel comfortable training with.

- Most of the BJJ training begins while sitting down. The act of "going through the entire self defense scenario" isn't taught at all. Meaning, defenses against punches are rarely taught...if at all. When it is taught, it's isn't taught enough to make students feel aware of what to do if a person is coming at with a desire to attack. My own thoughts is that most of the students are not trained to be prepared to deal with the entirety of a self-defense situation from beginning to end

- I think that the higher ranks in BJJ, just like most martial arts, would feel more comfortable dealing with "dirty tactics" because of the years of training and bumps and bruises. The higher-ranks, I'm sure, would react by responding with what they are taught in training. In BJJ that would probably include getting tighter and going for a quick submission. For other arts that may include striking, pushing, biting back, eye gouse, running, etc. I say that because I don't think that there is one specific way that all grapplers would deal with dirty tactics, especially if those defenses aren't regularly trained.

- I have found that the element of surprise can be a huge advantage over an opponent, no matter the martial art. I've told this story before, but I was training with a BJJ Back Belt from standing position. He went to take me down and I accidentally jabbed him in the face (my instant reaction). He buckled to his knees and I apologized profusely. He was expecting me to sprawl, because that was the filter in which he was trained. The surprise of my jab would have given me time to run away.

- My accidental attempts at "dirty tactics" while grappling: I think a lot of how a grappler will deal with dirty tactics can be based on his or her individual personality. I was rolling with a Blue Belt and I accidentally elbowed his groin while I was in his guard. He released me and curled up. I was rolling with a Brown Belt and he immediately got me in a triangle choke...I could not have tried to bite him if I had even thought about it. He was too fast. I was rolling with another Blue belt and my accidental headbutt to his jaw caused him to release. There are fellow BJJ students that I know that I could rip at their ears and they would let go out of sheer surprise at what I've done, and there would be BJJ students who would get very angry and break my arm in an armbar. I guess my point is, I have found that there isn't one universal answer as to how grapplers will deal with dirty tactics, but that it is based more on the individual make-up of a person. A lot of it is theoretical until it happens to that individual student.

- Ultimately, in my "a little over" one year, I have observed that there is a strong correlation with the amount of experience a BJJ student has and how they deal with dirty tactics. The higher ranks deal with them better than students year 1-3. I guess it would be like that in any art. A lot of it has to do with the personality make-up of the student, but I would imagine that the same could be said for the aggressiveness as to which the dirty tactic is applied.

Again, this is just from my own perspective.

One of the great divides in modern Bjj is sport versus self defense. I feel fortunate that I was mostly trained in Relson Gracie JJ which is heavily SD focused, but I can understand that some schools are trying to stay afloat and are really pushing competition while trying to pass it off as self defense. People LOVE to compete.

The good news is that even sport-based Bjj has some great benefits if you're trying to defend yourself. If you feel that your Bjj has holes in it, I would cross-train to try to fill those holes up.

But yeah, its going to be interesting to see where Bjj goes as the old guard retires and dies off.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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- Most of the BJJ training begins while sitting down.
Is there any stand up wrestling in your BJJ school? Does your school train how to

- get back up?


- take advantage on your leg holding from stand up game?


Some ground game and stand up game are connected.

 
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TMA17

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Thanks for sharing your experience. I signed up today with a place that teaches Catch Can Wrestling with a guy that studied under Erik Paulson. This place is no contract and offers a Saturday class. I want to see what it’s like. If I don’t like it I’ll check out IKMA.
 

drop bear

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Speaking as someone who trains BJJ primarily as a martial art, rather than as a sport, it makes me sad that so many schools have gone down this route. I'd rather teach my students to be able to handle a self-defense situation first, then let them explore the complexities of tournament competition later. Too many schools seem to take the opposite approach.

Yeah but your average guy probably does more competitions than has street fights.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Yeah but your average guy probably does more competitions than has street fights.
Combat is your goal. Sport is your path. As long as in sport, you have not ignore your opponent's punch/kick, you will be OK. But if you don't have alert about kick/punch in your sport, it's not good.

Even if your opponent is not punching you, you still need to guide his arm away from your entering path (just assume he is punching you).
 

Dirty Dog

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Yeah but your average guy probably does more competitions than has street fights.

One hopes... and in general probably true.
However, there are certainly exceptions. I have not competed in a few years, and I have not competed regularly in a couple decades. But I still get in fights far too often, thanks to certain people in the ER.
 

Steve

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One hopes... and in general probably true.
However, there are certainly exceptions. I have not competed in a few years, and I have not competed regularly in a couple decades. But I still get in fights far too often, thanks to certain people in the ER.
Are those fights or is that self defense? Just trying to be precise.
 
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