Anti-grappling

zepedawingchun

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I was watching, today, the Anti-Grappling video on this forum by The Chinaboxer. All I can say is, anti-grappling is nothing new, just a catch word to get people's attention. It's nothing more than just using good ol Wing Chun principles, theories, and concepts to keep the grappler off of you and stop them from being able to shoot in to take you to the ground. However, once down, you need to know how to use the rest of your Wing Chun to get free or win the fight. Nothing wrong with practicing some BJJ to understand how to defeat it with Wing Chun.

Your thoughts?
 

yak sao

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we had a BJJ practitioner in our group for a while a few years ago and he really made you get it right. Against someone who can't really grapple it'e quite a bit easier to use anti grappling against them. Same goes for practicing vs a good kicker or boxer as opposed to someone who just kind of throws it out there.
 

chinaboxer

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i've decided to not use the phrase "anti grappling" anymore, because i think it implies that there is actually a difference from "grappling". and this would just be false, to avoid the takedown is an integral part of grappling arts and not something separate. so now i just use the phrase "avoiding the takedown", since this also includes any grappling art as well.

this subject is a very tough challenge to tackle, but something that i will be focusing on in the near future, since i think it's very important for every martial artist.

i also agree with the OP, that to "avoid the takedown" requires all the concepts and principles of Wing Chun and is not something seperate from the actual method. it's alot to think about and is an entire subject in itself. should be a good topic!
 

mook jong man

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It certainly is a buzzword that is bandied around quite a lot , grappling is just another method of attack.
What I mean is that we don't hear of "Anti-punching" , "Anti-kicking" , "Anti-nipple twisting" , "Anti-insert whatever is the current flavour of the decade".
It's just another way to draw in students and increase revenue.

We must understand that we already practice a form of grappling called Chi Sau , in which anything can and does happen , when the terms of reference are broadened.

The best deterent against grappling is the ability to control the centerline and be able to generate power at extreme close range.

But having said that , the term grappling can encompass many types of attacks , everything from an attempted bear hug , a rugby tackle , or someone shooting down for the legs or ankles.

Anything directed at the upper body or the waist I believe we can pretty much maintain our normal posture to deal with the attack.

One of the important things is not letting them complete the grip , once the arms are around our waist or legs the opponent has a direct link to our stance and balance , and gone is our ability to absorb and redirect force with our arms , and our job has suddenly become a whole lot harder.

As I said upper body to waist directed attack we can rely on stock standard Wing Chun , but when the attack is directed at our lower legs and ankles , then I believe that we do have to change level with the opponent and drop into a lower stance.

Before anyone says "Blasphemer , that is not proper Wing Chun" we already have scope for this drop in stance with the semi-crouch position seen in the Bart Jarm Dao form and with kneeling elbow strikes etc.

There is no sense trying to keep a high stance when somebody is diving parallel to the ground for your boot laces.

I also do not advocate trying to strike with a knee , don't use your legs for anything but footwork , at least until his forward drive has been neutralised and you have him under control.
His objectives are to grab both or one of your legs , so why go giving them to him!

My students and I practice defending low tackles and the like from Chi Sau , I believe it is a great platform for sharpening reflexes to deal with the initial attempted grapple, so that the grip cannot be completed and the attack is neutralised before it has barely started.

Because Chi Sau is conducted at close range , there is barely any warning that a tackle attempt is coming so the student must learn to simultaneously lower the stance , control the opponents arm and use footwork to absorb the forward drive of the partner.

Once the guy has learnt to defend from this range , then you would start having him defend against them from further out of range , mixed in with other attacks ,and different directions.

This is in line with Wing Chun's approach of learning from the most dangerous range first which is close range , then further out at more conventional ranges.
 

geezer

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More good stuff from Mook. Now about the term "anti-grappling". It get's a lot of flack from grapplers, but it is a very accurate description of a mindset of countering grappling attacks with the objective of maintaining your stand-up/punching range... as compared with counter-grappling. It's something punchers have always sought to do and grapplers have tried to nullify. Nothing new in concept. For a 'chunner, it just means trying to make the grappler play your game. And, of course, you better be ready to play his game too, in case you mess up!
 

WC_lun

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Anti-grappling is a buzz word, just because grappling has beome one :)

My Wing Chun instructor is also a 5th degree black belt in juijistsu. One of my kung fu brothers owns his own juijitsu/judo school. I can say with no reservations that Wing Chun works as an "anti-grappling" system very well. As mentioned earlier, there is a world of difference between a trained grappler and a non-trained grappler. To stop trained grapplers you had better understand structure, space, and the ability to flow, because they will.
 

yak sao

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More good stuff from Mook. Now about the term "anti-grappling". It get's a lot of flack from grapplers, but it is a very accurate description of a mindset of countering grappling attacks with the objective of maintaining your stand-up/punching range... as compared with counter-grappling. It's something punchers have always sought to do and grapplers have tried to nullify. Nothing new in concept. For a 'chunner, it just means trying to make the grappler play your game. And, of course, you better be ready to play his game too, in case you mess up!

When I trained under Emin, we used the term Anti grappling. We also used the terms anti kicking and anti boxing. As geezer stated, it was put that way to remind us not to box a boxer or wrestle a wrestler, but to fight them using WT concepts.
 

cwk

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I don't usually use wing chun to counter someone trying to grapple me. Instead I rely on throws, takedowns and locks I learned doing northern kung fu and Judo, for me, they just works better. Saying that though, the skills developed in chi sao really come in handy to gain a superior hand position. Not saying that wing chun can't be used to counter grappling, just saying what I prefer.
On the subject of these counter grappling videos-
Most of them are very bad, both in theory and in the way the technique is shown. For example, most of the videos show the "grappler" diving in for the shoot from way out of range. In reality, they will set up the take down with strikes, usually to the head to get you to raise your guard and at the same time close the gap.
The counter strikes shown are usually stupid too, like Mook said, trying to knee someone who wants your leg is not a good idea. Usually people will take a knee to the head and just keep going, grabbing your leg and then dumping you on your head.
 

cwk

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Just to be clear, I'm referring to anti-grappling videos in general not any in particular.
I haven't seen Jin's video so I can't comment on it.
 

Domino

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Mook Jong on it as per usual :) ...
This is something Carlson Gracie and my sigung spoke about that interested me.
Anti grappling or 'dont take me to the floor' sound just the same when someone slams your head into the concrete. Personally use wing chun techniques shown to me by sigung but must be quick but work quite well against BJJ fighters.
 

Bill Mattocks

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From a general SD perspective, I believe that MMA has introduced the concept of 'ground and pound' to non-MA people to the extent that your typical street-brawler, who once would have preferred to stand and punch it out and for whom both kicking and grappling would seem to be a little bit sissified and to be avoided are now absolutely willing to give it a try. So it would make sense to have avoidance of takedowns and defense while on the ground as part of one's arsenal, regardless of the terms used to describe it. Just my 2 cents.
 

Ironcrane

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I would have to concur with CWK. I believe the key to stop grappling takedowns is to understand how they actually work - the part that is missing from almost all of the anti-grappling techniques I've seen. They seem to fail to understand that a proper takedown is an actual technique, guided by stragety, and tatics. Not just simply diving at you from several feet away.
 

chain punch

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And if you watch elite MMA, how many can really stop a takedown and they know it is coming? BJ, Lil Nog, GSP. These 3 do it well consistently and how long have they trained anti-grappling? What we need to appreciate is how knackering it is to stop someone trying to drag you to the floor. Recently we practiced this with gis on over our clothes to simulate coats. It messes your technique up quickly. It also taught me that someone holding you very tight with one hand cant punch hard with the other and vice versa.

Seriously, if you want to learn to defend takedowns, studying grappling.
 
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