An Afternoon of Sword...

[Milt G.]

Hello,

Some years back, during a tournament demonstration, a friend and I had some fun.
Mind you, I am not trying to pass this off as one thing, or another. Just as a "general" Japanese sword demonstration.
Most of the movements come from the Japanese Iaido taught in early 90's Kosho-Ryu Kempo. As with most things, much has changed since then. And a sword "master", I am not.

I hope you enjoy, or that it made you smile. Regardless of the reason.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to watch.
Milt G.

 

[Chris Parker]

I kinda hate to say this, Milt, but as a "general Japanese sword demonstration" it fails rather badly. There is no Japanese swordsmanship that I can see in the entire clip, the cutting mechanics are missing, the movement is missing, the vast majority of what is seen is rather ineffective and pointless, and then there are aspects, or sections, that are one step removed from baton twirling (4:06 onwards, for example).

This is why those in the JSA say to not learn sword from any Karate school, sadly. I will say, though, that it's less to do with your not being a "sword master", and far more to do with flawed methods being taught to you from the looks of things. You look like you could be decent with a sword, if you learned properly, there's a good natural smoothness to a lot of your movement, and the grips not too bad, but you'd need to leave everything you'd learned behind in order to start again.

 

[Sanke]

I'm sorry to say, but I can't say I enjoyed it. Like Mr. Parker said, it's really not swordsmanship at all, let alone Japanese. At best, it's a set of flashy, ineffective moves done with a lack of understanding of how the sword works, and a complete lack of zanshin.
That's kinda what puts me off the most to be honest. Ok, lets say you've cut your opponent and he's not looking so good. So you do your noto as you've done it, pretty much right after the cut. What if he suddenly gets up, your cut hasn't killed him, and he catches you off guard? That mindset of being ready for anything, AFTER you've done your technique is something vital to all JMA's, and it's completely missing here.
If you still want to learn swordsmanship, great, but as Mr. Parker said, start from square one, and forget everything you've shown here, because frankly, it's not worth keeping.
I'm only just starting myself, and I can tell you, the real stuff is much better than all of the pseudo-stuff that's out there. So if you can, find your local Iaido dojo, and start your journey anew, you won't regret it.

 

[Cyriacus]

The Individual Techniques arent *too* bad - If thats how they teach it, well, you dont compare Eskrima to Kali, as if one were the Baseline.

But the Real Issue, is the Way it Flows. Or rather, the Absense of a Continual Flow.
The Techniques are Extremely Singular, and almost Overdependant on Working right away.
With one of the Downward Strikes, for Example; Most Demonstrations ive seen will proceed directly into a Second Strike, due to the Chance of that Strike being Blocked.
The Attack/Defense Work though, leads to my Next Part.
To be Fair, this isnt too bad if youre just looking for the Basic Capability to Wield a Sword.
Or to Wield a Sword against a Single Attacker, Possibly of the same Skill.
But the Absense of Continued Exchange/Motion Limits it.

In other Words, pretty much what everyone else has said.
Except that I think that if you only wanted to have a General Idea of Sword Use, and not actually Wielding a Sword Fully, it isnt too bad.
Its a Question of what you want

Overall, you may well be best off Starting Fresh - Your Current Knowledge mainly needs to be Modified, not Removed altogether.

 

[Chris Parker]

The Individual Techniques arent *too* bad - If thats how they teach it, well, you dont compare Eskrima to Kali, as if one were the Baseline.

But the Real Issue, is the Way it Flows. Or rather, the Absense of a Continual Flow.
The Techniques are Extremely Singular, and almost Overdependant on Working right away.
With one of the Downward Strikes, for Example; Most Demonstrations ive seen will proceed directly into a Second Strike, due to the Chance of that Strike being Blocked.
The Attack/Defense Work though, leads to my Next Part.
To be Fair, this isnt too bad if youre just looking for the Basic Capability to Wield a Sword.
Or to Wield a Sword against a Single Attacker, Possibly of the same Skill.
But the Absense of Continued Exchange/Motion Limits it.

In other Words, pretty much what everyone else has said.
Except that I think that if you only wanted to have a General Idea of Sword Use, and not actually Wielding a Sword Fully, it isnt too bad.
Its a Question of what you want

Overall, you may well be best off Starting Fresh - Your Current Knowledge mainly needs to be Modified, not Removed altogether.

Unfortunately, Cyriacus, the individual techniques ARE that bad. And this approach gives no idea of sword use, let alone simply a general one, as it contravenes a number of basic concepts of sword use, specifically Japanese.

Hopefully Milt will forgive me embedding the clip here, but it makes it easier to refer to:

I'm going to leave off a fair bit, but the first "questionable" thing is the back of the hand "stroking" of the saya/sageo at 0:40, which serves no real purpose whatsoever. Next is the (third) bow, which is performed kneeling with the sword in the belt... uh, what? Never done, really. That's what the comment on the youtube page about "not even knowing how to bow properly" referred to.

The first "technique" is an upward draw, followed by a downward cut, then chiburi and noto. Right. The initial draw and cut is actually the best part of this sequence, and it's not a cut. The downward cut (Shomen Uchi) is even less of a cut, with no extension, no proper te no uchi, no proper line, a badly directed and controlled "stop" of the cut, and more, all in all not allowing the sword to actually do what a sword does. Milt then immediately moves into his "chiburi", which is possibly the most ineffectual action here, just waving the sword to the side, with nowhere near the action required to start to move anything from the blade itself. The noto is rather dangerous, with Milt shifting his entire body around to try to accommedate the resheathing.

The second technique is even less effectual, essentially shaking and waving the sword around, with no cutting or actual use of the blade whatsoever.

The third one is a little better, at least there is some direction to this one, but the draw is poorly done, and the chiburi and noto suffer from the same issues seen earlier.

I don't know where to start with the fourth, except to say that I'm relieved Milt didn't stab himself....

The fifth one misses the point of the different form of chiburi shown, along with the same poor cutting and use of blade that we've seen so far.

Skipping a few, same issues in them, the Kumitachi (paired) methods are almost universally bad, and would lead to death rather quickly. The best is the wrist lock against the jam of the tsuka, but it's still flawed.

3:52 onwards. If you did that in a sword school, you'd be told to put the sword away and stand in the corner lest you hurt someone, or yourself. No cutting at all, just waving the sword around, and then the figure 8 thing? These are hallmarks of a lack of understanding about a sword, as well as a fair helping of fantasy thrown in.

4:06 onwards. You'd be asked who said you could pick the sword up again, and removed from the room. Incredibly bad usage of a sword, and complete fantasy when it comes to the tactics shown. Nothing to do with swordsmanship at all.

To contrast, and I will clarify by saying that this is exactly the level that Milt says he is not, but it is a good example of the issues mentioned in my appraisal above being corrected in an actual Iai system:

Finally, Cyriacus, you mention that "The Techniques are Extremely Singular, and almost Overdependant on Working right away. With one of the Downward Strikes, for Example; Most Demonstrations ive seen will proceed directly into a Second Strike, due to the Chance of that Strike being Blocked."

You may not have seen much real Iai yourself, then. The idea of such methods are that you have, indeed, killed them already, and the follow up mindset is represented by Zanshin, essentially a displayed awareness following the technique. Again, that is present in the clip I posted, but missing in Milts.

 

[Cyriacus]

Unfortunately, Cyriacus, the individual techniques ARE that bad. And this approach gives no idea of sword use, let alone simply a general one, as it contravenes a number of basic concepts of sword use, specifically Japanese.

*Curiously Reads On*

Hopefully Milt will forgive me embedding the clip here, but it makes it easier to refer to:

I'm going to leave off a fair bit, but the first "questionable" thing is the back of the hand "stroking" of the saya/sageo at 0:40, which serves no real purpose whatsoever. Next is the (third) bow, which is performed kneeling with the sword in the belt... uh, what? Never done, really. That's what the comment on the youtube page about "not even knowing how to bow properly" referred to.

See, now that I know this, that makes sense. I did think it seemed odd to Bow WITH the Sword, after Bowing TO it.

The first "technique" is an upward draw, followed by a downward cut, then chiburi and noto. Right. The initial draw and cut is actually the best part of this sequence, and it's not a cut. The downward cut (Shomen Uchi) is even less of a cut, with no extension, no proper te no uchi, no proper line, a badly directed and controlled "stop" of the cut, and more, all in all not allowing the sword to actually do what a sword does. Milt then immediately moves into his "chiburi", which is possibly the most ineffectual action here, just waving the sword to the side, with nowhere near the action required to start to move anything from the blade itself. The noto is rather dangerous, with Milt shifting his entire body around to try to accommedate the resheathing.

When I saw that, I interprited it as a kind of "Lodging" Cut, as oppose to a Maneuver unto itself. In that case, the Incomplete Action could indeed be quite Dangerous.

The second technique is even less effectual, essentially shaking and waving the sword around, with no cutting or actual use of the blade whatsoever.

It could be an interesting way of Feinting, I suppose. But who knows

The third one is a little better, at least there is some direction to this one, but the draw is poorly done, and the chiburi and noto suffer from the same issues seen earlier.

*No Comment - Approves*

I don't know where to start with the fourth, except to say that I'm relieved Milt didn't stab himself....

*Actually Smiles upon Rewatching.*

The fifth one misses the point of the different form of chiburi shown, along with the same poor cutting and use of blade that we've seen so far.

I think missing the point of the Form is the biggest Issue. Thats somewhat Disrespectful to the form itself (On the part of whoever altered it)

Skipping a few, same issues in them, the Kumitachi (paired) methods are almost universally bad, and would lead to death rather quickly. The best is the wrist lock against the jam of the tsuka, but it's still flawed.

Well, they were somewhat better than the first things though.

3:52 onwards. If you did that in a sword school, you'd be told to put the sword away and stand in the corner lest you hurt someone, or yourself. No cutting at all, just waving the sword around, and then the figure 8 thing? These are hallmarks of a lack of understanding about a sword, as well as a fair helping of fantasy thrown in.

It did seem very Television'y. I just assumed it was fancy Deflecting. *Banks Knowledge*

4:06 onwards. You'd be asked who said you could pick the sword up again, and removed from the room. Incredibly bad usage of a sword, and complete fantasy when it comes to the tactics shown. Nothing to do with swordsmanship at all.

Presumably, the Sympathetic Guy who wanted to let you redeem yourself did.

To contrast, and I will clarify by saying that this is exactly the level that Milt says he is not, but it is a good example of the issues mentioned in my appraisal above being corrected in an actual Iai system:

Finally, Cyriacus, you mention that "The Techniques are Extremely Singular, and almost Overdependant on Working right away. With one of the Downward Strikes, for Example; Most Demonstrations ive seen will proceed directly into a Second Strike, due to the Chance of that Strike being Blocked."

You may not have seen much real Iai yourself, then. The idea of such methods are that you have, indeed, killed them already, and the follow up mindset is represented by Zanshin, essentially a displayed awareness following the technique. Again, that is present in the clip I posted, but missing in Milts.

Ive seen them - Albeit before I started Researching Sword Arts too heavily. So some Misconception may have formed, naturally.

Obliged, Good Sir.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello...
Wow...! While I was sure that the demonstration was far from perfect, I did not know it was that bad overall...
Was there anything that was real positive? You must have liked my uniform, right? I had much more hair then, too... How about the fact that I DID NOT cut myself, or my partner?
Back to the drawing board, I guess.

Thanks for the input. Well, at least that was quite a few years ago. Much has happened in the last 12 years.
Milt G.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hello...
Wow...! While I was sure that the demonstration was far from perfect, I did not know it was that bad overall...
Was there anything that was real positive? You must have liked my uniform, right? I had much more hair then, too... How about the fact that I DID NOT cut myself, or my partner?
Back to the drawing board, I guess.

Thanks for the input. Well, at least that was quite a few years ago. Much has happened in the last 12 years.
Milt G.

Your Facial Structure and Hair actually looked quite Cool in the Uniform
And the Sword looked about right.

 

[Milt G.]

Your Facial Structure and Hair actually looked quite Cool in the Uniform
And the Sword looked about right.

Thank you! It took all morning to get my hair to do that.
Milt G.

 

[billc]

Milt G. I'm curious, where did you get these kata from. I'm a former Kosho student myself, and I was wondering, did you get these Kata from Bruce Juchnick or one of his guys or through the westmont line and Roland Roemer? I was around when they all first met Michael Sullivan who had practiced Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu in Japan for a couple of years, and I know one of Bruce's guys, Dale something or other, was also training in Kobudo and learning MJER through that teacher. After leaving Kosho, I eventually had the opportunity to train in Mugai Ryu Iaido and I have to say these guys are being pretty polite about their comments on the kata. The JSA types are very protective of their arts, and I have to say you should stay in touch with them, they can show you some really interesting sword arts from Japan.

 

[Milt G.]

Milt G. I'm curious, where did you get these kata from. I'm a former Kosho student myself, and I was wondering, did you get these Kata from Bruce Juchnick or one of his guys or through the westmont line and Roland Roemer? I was around when they all first met Michael Sullivan who had practiced Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu in Japan for a couple of years, and I know one of Bruce's guys, Dale something or other, was also training in Kobudo and learning MJER through that teacher. After leaving Kosho, I eventually had the opportunity to train in Mugai Ryu Iaido and I have to say these guys are being pretty polite about their comments on the kata. The JSA types are very protective of their arts, and I have to say you should stay in touch with them, they can show you some really interesting sword arts from Japan.

Hello,
I learned much of what I know from the Juchnik lineage of Kosho-Ryu. Very early 1990's.
It is an old demo. Just wanted some feedback from my earlier Iaido days. I do not have much time for it these days, sadly. Too many other things to practice as well. I am more known for my Kenpo. That and Iaido tends to not "gel" very well.

Glad they were polite... Is there any other way to be? No matter what gets posted, there is always something negative to say, it seems. The positive is what is usually lacking in forums, in general.
Back to the drawing board.
Thanks for your reply.
Milt G.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hello...
Wow...! While I was sure that the demonstration was far from perfect, I did not know it was that bad overall...
Was there anything that was real positive? You must have liked my uniform, right? I had much more hair then, too... How about the fact that I DID NOT cut myself, or my partner?
Back to the drawing board, I guess.

Thanks for the input. Well, at least that was quite a few years ago. Much has happened in the last 12 years.
Milt G.

Hi Milt,

Yeah, sorry about any offence there, but what I see is what I see....

In terms of your uniform, I'm impressed that you were wearing hakama (it's considered rather disrespectful to demonstrate sword without them, something others can forget from time to time... those more, uh, traditional among us do notice these things!). I can't see how you have them tied in this clip, so I'm not sure how well they're being worn, but nothing leaps out as bad there (although you may consider wearing darker gi pants underneath next time, the flashes of white are fine if you're wearing a white uwagi as well, but with the black it's not a good look).

I will pick up on one thing, though, you say that a positive might be that you "did not cut yourself or your partner"? Do I take that to mean that you were using a live sword (shinken)? If you were, that would honestly be another point against the demo, I'm sorry to say. If not, all good.

 

[pgsmith]

Since you've already been well beaten for your video, I shall restrain myself.
I know of a talented gentleman in Portland that runs a Mugai ryu study group. If you ever decide to do another 'iaido' demonstration, I can hunt down his contact information for you. I'm sure he'd be happy to help you out.

 

[Sukerkin]

Chris didn't mean anything nasty by his critique, Milt, fear not on that regard.

Something to bear in mind is that those of us whose sole martial arts study is that of the sword tend to be hyper-alert to the smallest of variations from how a kata should be. We tend to be 'worse' when it is kata from our own styles but it is a level of analysis that spreads to all things where wielding a sword is part of the process . We also tend to feel that to learn the way of the sword is a life-long process of improvement, during which we seek to diligently remove imperfections from our physical and mental actions.

This is often referred to as "polishing the mirror" and by it's very nature means that we never see anything as perfect. Holding that in mind, there is also another commonly voiced philosophy that says that if your sensei stops correcting you, then you have either achieved perfection or he's given up on you ever getting it right :lol:. As students, so ingrained does this search for improvement become that we continually assess and correct each other as well. So we become very used to others offering what might seem to be very sharp or cutting assessments of our sword-work {yeah, sword based pun attack! }; this can mean that we sometimes forget that not all who learn something about using a sword do so in such a strictured environment.

So, in a round-about way, I am trying to say that taking such criticism to heart, in the sense of 'learning' rather than 'being hurt by', is one of the important traits in a swordsman :bows:.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It never is pleasant to receive a critical review. However, if we learn from it then we can hopefully grow!

 

[Milt G.]

Since you've already been well beaten for your video, I shall restrain myself.
I know of a talented gentleman in Portland that runs a Mugai ryu study group. If you ever decide to do another 'iaido' demonstration, I can hunt down his contact information for you. I'm sure he'd be happy to help you out.

Hello,
Thanks for the info., and your restraint.
I appreciate it.
Milt G.

 

[Milt G.]

Chris didn't mean anything nasty by his critique, Milt, fear not on that regard.

Something to bear in mind is that those of us whose sole martial arts study is that of the sword tend to be hyper-alert to the smallest of variations from how a kata should be. We tend to be 'worse' when it is kata from our own styles but it is a level of analysis that spreads to all things where wielding a sword is part of the process . We also tend to feel that to learn the way of the sword is a life-long process of improvement, during which we seek to diligently remove imperfections from our physical and mental actions.

This is often referred to as "polishing the mirror" and by it's very nature means that we never see anything as perfect. Holding that in mind, there is also another commonly voiced philosophy that says that if your sensei stops correcting you, then you have either achieved perfection or he's given up on you ever getting it right :lol:. As students, so ingrained does this search for improvement become that we continually assess and correct each other as well. So we become very used to others offering what might seem to be very sharp or cutting assessments of our sword-work {yeah, sword based pun attack! }; this can mean that we sometimes forget that not all who learn something about using a sword do so in such a strictured environment.

So, in a round-about way, I am trying to say that taking such criticism to heart, in the sense of 'learning' rather than 'being hurt by', is one of the important traits in a swordsman :bows:.

Hello...
Thanks for your reply. I am not being "hurt" by the criticism. I appreciate the candid comments.
The vid. was done in 1999, by the way.

Although I was at a beginners level of understanding in the clip, and stated such, I do not think it was entirely poor.
Even now that I know more about the sword.
I will say that the sword is not my "speciality", and I am just a dabbler at best. There is just too much to practice and only so many hours in the day. Sad, but true. I do not practice, or teach martial arts for a living.

I do know that by "putting it out there" I was inviting feedback.
I have been receiving what I have invited. No harm and no foul.

Thanks, again, for your comments and taking the time to watch.
Milt G.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Milt,

As I said, I don't think you were let down by your personal inherent ability, or your dedication, but more by the education you were receiving. As such, in terms of there not being enough hours in the day, that's not really the issue. For example, I don't teach full time either, I work about a 45-50 hour week (often longer, actually), and train in a sword system on Monday nights (with occasional Iai added in), teach on Tuesday and Thursday nights, train in another sword system on Wednesday nights, with that soon to be expanded to Saturday nights as well, and then there's the social life to consider as well. My point is that, in the case of, say, the Iai, that's half an hour once a fortnight, so time isn't as important as correct education.

 

[Milt G.]

Hi Milt,

As I said, I don't think you were let down by your personal inherent ability, or your dedication, but more by the education you were receiving. As such, in terms of there not being enough hours in the day, that's not really the issue. For example, I don't teach full time either, I work about a 45-50 hour week (often longer, actually), and train in a sword system on Monday nights (with occasional Iai added in), teach on Tuesday and Thursday nights, train in another sword system on Wednesday nights, with that soon to be expanded to Saturday nights as well, and then there's the social life to consider as well. My point is that, in the case of, say, the Iai, that's half an hour once a fortnight, so time isn't as important as correct education.

Hello,
Regardless of the quality of instruction I was receiving, I was not able to give my Iaido the attention it deserves.
And it is impossible to make everyone happy.
Thanks for your input.
Milt G.

 

[lklawson]

The JSA types are very protective of their arts

It is true that JSA practitioners have a reputation for exaggerated nit-pickiness (stereotyped and deserved or not). However, I have found this to be true of a certain fraction of ANY sword art's adherents.

The surest way to receive a crap-load of criticism (sometimes helpful, sometimes not) is to post a youtube of yourself doing Messer, Longsword, Rapier, Saber, or whatever over on the western sword arts section of SFI. While I don't hang there much any longer, I can recall just about one such thread that only got a little criticism and that was by noted Highland Broadsword instructor Chris Thompson.

For that matter, posting video of any martial arts, armed or not, tends to invite criticism (sometime snarky, sometimes constructive). It's just human nature. That said, the response for sword arts often seems heightened in comparison with non-sword arts.

The criticisms thus far in this thread have had minimal snarkiness, which, I think, speaks well of the community here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk