Sparring in Sword Arts

Charles Mahan

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MODERATOR NOTE:

THESE POSTS HAVE BEEN SPLIT OFF FROM ANOTHER THREAD SO THAT THE TOPIC OF SPARRING CAN CONTINUE. ALL MODERATOR WARNINGS ARE STILL ARE IN EFFECT.

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Well... Chanbara doesn't use swords, and never has at a prior point in it's history. It uses padded weapons which don't perform much like the real thing, and from what little I've seen, doesn't really use them in a realistic way. To top it off it's named after the Japanese term for "cinematic" sword play. Not exactly a point in it's favor.

Don't get me wrong. It looks like a load of fun and fantastic exercise. But it bears little to no resemblance to the JSA world.

If you disagree with my assertion, think about it a bit, come back and lay out your case for why I am wrong. So far your justification of labeling it as a sword art revolves around it using a "representation of a sword" and it's being "combative". That's not a terribly strong arguement. The "representation of a sword" is not a terribly good substitute in terms of shape, weight, balance, performance, menace, and other general handling characteristics. Combative is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. You do hit people, but not with the intent to cause them harm. It's a point tagging system.
 

Andrew Green

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Now how would that make it different from modern Fencing or even Kendo? Both use non-lethal versions of the weapons to make it safe to spar with.
 
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Charles Mahan

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Well. That's true, and if you surf the forums you'll find a lot of debate on whether or not sport fencing and Kendo qualify as true sword arts as well. I won't make the case in either way for them, but I will point out one key difference between fencing and kendo. Both systems have evolved from real sword fighting schools. There is a historical basis for both.

What are the historic roots for Chanbara? What ryu-ha provided the basis for it's techniques? What experienced swordsman were key to it's formation? Kendo and Fencing can be tracked back to particular schools of swordsmanship. Depending on exactly how you define Kendo, it goes back more than 200 years.
 

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Charles Mahan said:
Well... Chanbara doesn't use swords, and never has at a prior point in it's history. It uses padded weapons which don't perform much like the real thing, and from what little I've seen, doesn't really use them in a realistic way. To top it off it's named after the Japanese term for "cinematic" sword play. Not exactly a point in it's favor.

Don't get me wrong. It looks like a load of fun and fantastic exercise. But it bears little to no resemblance to the JSA world.

If you disagree with my assertion, think about it a bit, come back and lay out your case for why I am wrong. So far your justification of labeling it as a sword art revolves around it using a "representation of a sword" and it's being "combative". That's not a terribly strong argument. The "representation of a sword" is not a terribly good substitute in terms of shape, weight, balance, performance, menace, and other general handling characteristics. Combative is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. You do hit people, but not with the intent to cause them harm. It's a point tagging system.

Well, let me say first, I wasn't trying to justify it as a sword art. I was inquiring into the reasoning behind you not including it as a JSA. Like I said before, I"ve used the equipment, which is well worth the price, but have no exposure to actual Chanbara.

But, it seems to me, many of your arguments against it being a sword art would also apply to Kendo. Now, I'm not suggesting that Kendo isn't a sword art, however there are many similarities between it and Chanbara. The shinai isn't a very accurate representation of a real sword, and it is a point tagging system as well.

It just seems to me that Chanbara could be a good training tool for people who can't or don't want to spend the money on expensive Kendo armour. And the gentleman who heads it here in the U.S. seems to know his stuff when it comes to Iaido. But I could be very wrong about that, as I only have a passing knowledge of that art. But he does seem to stress good basic kihon in what I've seen of him.

Please don't take this post in the wrong way, I have nothing but respect for the JSA's and really would like to learn more about them.

JeffJ
 

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Charles Mahan said:
Well. That's true, and if you surf the forums you'll find a lot of debate on whether or not sport fencing and Kendo qualify as true sword arts as well. I won't make the case in either way for them, but I will point out one key difference between fencing and kendo. Both systems have evolved from real sword fighting schools. There is a historical basis for both.

What are the historic roots for Chanbara? What ryu-ha provided the basis for it's techniques? What experienced swordsman were key to it's formation? Kendo and Fencing can be tracked back to particular schools of swordsmanship. Depending on exactly how you define Kendo, it goes back more than 200 years.

It comes from Toyama-Iai-Batto-Do.
 
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Charles Mahan

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Can I get one of the Toyama Ryu guys to comment on this?

A quick search of E-budo turned up this thread which questions the link between Toyama Ryu and Chanbara.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32783&highlight=Chanbara

To quote Dave Drawdy, a prominent figure in the Toyama Ryu/Nakamura Ryu world in the US, from that thread
"is there some sort of connection between Toyama Ryu Iaido and Chanbara?" short answer - no. Although one figure big in chanbara also claims rank in Toyama.
"traditional Toyama Ryu Iaido?" - unlikely. I don't know this group, but if their rank is through the Sports Chanbara people, safe to say they are not affiliated with Nakamura Ryu or Toyama Ryu, which are both still around, active and headquartered in Japan. And which, BTW, are very generous in allowing groups to train and be affiliated, so that is no excuse. There are currently only four dojo groups in the US that are actively affiliated with the Nakamura home dojo, as far as I know. Several more under a Toyama line. A bunch of those guys will be in California next week for the West Coast tai kai. Lots of people have 'spun off' of the Toyama and Nakamura styles and developed their own variations or systems (and books, and videos, etc., etc.), for a variety of reasons. With very few exceptions, none of those guys made it to the level of a teaching license before breaking off and making up, um I mean forming their own style. Logic would seem to indicate that if they didn't have a teaching license, they didn't know the system.
But, hey, I could be wrong.
 

pgsmith

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It comes from Toyama-Iai-Batto-Do.
No, it doesn't. It has absolutely nothing to do with Toyama ryu. It was invented in the early 70's by Tetsundo Tanabe to specifically be a sport allowing children to play at swords without getting hurt ... http://www.internationalsportschanbara.net/founder.html

The only person that has ever tried to associate it with Toyama ryu is Master Dana Abbot, and I won't go into him on here. I have played Sports Chanbara, and it's a lot of fun. It bears no resemblance to actual swordwork as far as technique goes, but it's a lot of fun.
 

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pgsmith said:
No, it doesn't. It has absolutely nothing to do with Toyama ryu. It was invented in the early 70's by Tetsundo Tanabe to specifically be a sport allowing children to play at swords without getting hurt ... http://www.internationalsportschanbara.net/founder.html

The only person that has ever tried to associate it with Toyama ryu is Master Dana Abbot, and I won't go into him on here. I have played Sports Chanbara, and it's a lot of fun. It bears no resemblance to actual swordwork as far as technique goes, but it's a lot of fun.

Could you possible PM me with info about Abbot? And maybe some links to and/or about Toyama-Ryu?

Thanks,

JeffJ
 
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Charles Mahan

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Here's another thread which contains a lot of discussion of the nature of Chanbara. It leans pretty heavily in the direction of sport not budo, although there are some VERY vocal defenders. Still a thorough open minded read of the thread makes it pretty clear which side of the debate came out on top.
 

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I might have a slightly different take then most people here because I am not a traditionalist and to me it is a waste of time trying to define what a "sword art" is and what would fit the bill.

I will say that I did Chanbara while I was doing Iado (many moons ago) at a traditional Japanese school where many of the Chanbara players there had won competition in Japan.

I found that it was a great complement to learning the sword. It teaches you valuable distance and timing skills that carry over to other aspects of your training. The key is to use it as a training tool and try to keep your movements as close to realistic as you can (as if you had a real blade) and don't get into quirky speculative techniques that only allow you to get "point." Unless your actually going to compete in tournaments, there is no need for that stuff.

I would say Chanbara is to sword fighting as point fighting is to real fighting. There are many dynamics that are going to be different, but that doesn't mean that valuable skills can't be learned from it.

The problem that we run into with our sword training is that we aren't truely able to spar live with live blades. So, we have to fill in the blanks somewhere. Chanbara and Kendo (and fencing too, but that is more western style swords) are good compliments. But there is always a trade off of one reality to another. You do your traditional sword exercises with a real sword, and you get the balance and feel of a real blade but you don't get the feel of a live opponent. You do Chanbara, you lose the feel of the real sword but gain the interaction with the live opponent. You do Kendo, and you have a sword with a little bit more of a realistic feel (but still not the same), but you have to deal with armor that might be limiting.

This is all relative, however, as most of us won't be carrying a sword in the streets looking for a duel.

But I think that you can build good attributive skills while having a lot of fun with sword training. So, I say play Chanbara as well; it'll help you build some attributes and its a good darned time. :)

Paul
 

Chris deMonch

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From what I've seen of chambara it looks like a fun thing to do every now and again, but I don't really see how it's necessary at all in actual sword training. But then, I also do not believe that sparring in a weapons format is necessary either. In the koryu, timing, distancing, and all that good stuff are built up through use of partnered drills (kenjutsu/kumitachi/kumi-iai/whatever). Such things when done properly are done at full speed with full intensity, and in a given set techniques can be switched up to keep people on their toes.
While I think sparring is fun to do every now and again, all too often I see it go on way too long after one or the other would be dead or boil down to slap fights with bokuto. Kenjutsu drills are the way the samurai trained their techniques back then and kenjutsu drills are the way the koryu schools pass this stuff on now. Within that context I don't really see boffers as necessary.
 

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Weren't most all *real life* duels between rival samurai VERY short? As in someone was dead within a couple moves.

Chanbara looks like a lot of fun, but it is nowhere near fighting with *real* katana. Nor does it properly simulate how samurai used to duel.
 

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I'm certainely not a samurai expert, but where they not battlefield soldiers for the most part, usually fighting off horseback? Not folks that went around dueling one on one?

No matter.

Sparring in weapons is IMO, absolutely neccessary to get effective. Same as in empty hand fighting. Every Boxer, Wrestler, Submission grappler, kickboxer, No rules fighter, etc. Everyone of them that is any good spars, it is definately neccessary.

Is sparring "real"? No, of course not, but neither is anything else done in training, can't toss it all out. There are things that can only be learnt by having someone try and hit you while you try and hit them, and for those things you need to spar.

Can it get silly and counterproductive? Yes, see point fighting in open tournaments for a common example. But it doesn't have to just because some folks want a safe, easy, no one can possibly get hurt version.

Will it continue long after both should be dead? Yes, of course. Wouldn't do much good to show up, spar for 30 secs then go home cause you are "dead" would it?
 
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Charles Mahan

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Andrew what's your background in the sword arts? It's relevant to the discussion since you are using that background to contradict another poster who has stated that free sparring is absolutely not part of the traditional transmission of koryu sword arts.

For the most part swords were not battlefield weapons at all. Taking a katana onto a Japanese battlefield is a lot like taking a 9mm pistol onto a modern battlefield. If you're down to your pistol, something's gone horribly wrong with the battle. It's a sidearm not a primary weapon.

BTW, for those participating who are not JSA sword form regulars, the falacy of the necessity of free sparring has been discussed over and over and over again. Threads can be easily found on most of the big forums by searching for the term "sparring" or perhaps "free sparring". I would suggest http://www.e-budo.com and http://www.swordforum.com as good places to do a search.
 

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Andrew Green said:
More other weapons then swords. But I do have limited experience in Kendo and Western Fencing.

You do know that Kendo is considered to be more of a sport than a sword art, right?
 

Andrew Green

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Yup, and a far to restrictive one for my tastes, I kept wanting to take a swing at peoples legs...

You also say that like "sport" is a derrogatory term. I would say it is not, in fact without training that has a competitive element it's less of a functional art.
 
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Charles Mahan

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No offense Andrew, but I am tempted to dismiss your assertions out of hand because you seem to have no real experience in the sword arts to speak of, yet you are speaking very authoritatively on the topic.

I strongly recommend you go looking for those sparring threads I mentioned. There are an awful lot of arguements laid out on both sides already in endless detail.

BTW, here's another thread on chanbara
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26181&highlight=sparring
 

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Andrew Green said:
Yup, and a far to restrictive one for my tastes, I kept wanting to take a swing at peoples legs...

You also say that like "sport" is a derrogatory term. I would say it is not, in fact without training that has a competitive element it's less of a functional art.

Didn't mean to use "sport" as a derogatory term; just to show the difference between Kendo and an actual JSA. Same difference between fencing and rapier fighting in a Western martial art.

Kendo and fencing are great for building reflexes and improving reaction time to attacks. But the movements in Kendo are very different from kenjutsu in a koryu.
 

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Charles Mahan said:
No offense Andrew, but I am tempted to dismiss your assertions out of hand because you seem to have no real experience in the sword arts to speak of, yet you are speaking very authoritatively on the topic.

Fair enough, but mind if I ask you what experience you have just grabbing some sticks / fake swords and banging on each other? aka: sparring

You are speaking from your perspective, which is fine. What I disagree with is writting something off because it does not fit with your own definition of what "good training" is. In my mind effectiveness requires sparring. Whether it is no weapons, sticks, knives, swords or any other weapon you can come up with.

So, what experience do you have in "my ways" that allow you to dismiss them so easily?
 

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