Aikido.. The reality?

[Urban Trekker]

Exactly. His debut fight was horrible. He didn't dominate the trained fighter like he dominated those in his backyard. Not even close. The other guy didn't do too hot either but he didn't get knocked out and he held his own better than others that Kimbo fought before MMA

That was actually his UFC debut. He fought in the EliteXC before that.

Also, plenty of the backyard fighters held their own pretty well against Kimbo and I know of one fight that he lost.

I say that to say this: there are plenty of untrained fighters out there who would do well in MMA. Kimbo Slice was given an opportunity because he went viral on the internet.

 

[MadMartigan]

Kinda feels like more of a semantic argument. In my opinion, what is "training" but doing something over and over until you get really good at it. Going to classes doesn't make you good; repetition with intention does.

By that metric I would contend that Kimbo Was a trained fighter before he started mma. The same applies to other tough guys and frequent street fighters. They've trained for violence by putting themselves through violence. In my circle we call that 'adrenal inoculation'.

I think of the physical skills and the psychological experience as 2 sides of the same coin. Training physical skills without a realistic understanding of how violence feels, will inevitably fail when called upon in real life.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Not even sports, just a-holes who like to bully and attack people. People like that have a mindset where they are aggressive and thus very dangerous, and will seek out people they perceive to be smaller or weaker than themselves. What's worse, these people are used to hitting and getting hit, and are used to adrenaline dumps and various levels of violence that Bob the lawyer who is a black belt and does Aikido twice a week simply isn't used to.

Regardless of the style you do, if you train twice a week are you giving yourself enough time on the floor to deal with a-hole situations ? A-holes that are 'bigger' and 'stronger' picking on 'smaller' and 'weaker' people are a special kind of a-hole. Says a lot more about them than it does about the person they are picking on. Says a lot about 'Bob the Lawyer' if he feels that putting the a-hole down physically is the right call. You would think Bob the Lawyer would be able to sort that out using his lawyerly skills but then again it is best to have more than one method of dealing with an aggressor.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You'd be hard pressed to find a TMA'ist with no real fighting experience who can do the same thing.

Most untrained TMA students come in as untrained with only the interest to learn how to do cool forms or if they are kids to learn how to fight because they get bullied in school. When I started Jow Ga. I knew how to fight, but that wasn't the reason why I joined. My original reason was to learn how to do forms with the weapons, with an interest of eventually learning how to use weapons.

It wasn't until my second Jow Ga school many years later that I wanted to actually learn how to fight with Jow Ga techniques. My first martial arts was karate and we did quite a bit of competitive sparring in that school. Not the point sparring stuff. We did continuous sparring. Most kids will join because of their parents want quick black belts, confidence, or discipline. Very few join because of bullying issues in comparison. So they come in without a fighting back ground and then they train without a fighting focus. It's just the way things are at most TMA schools

 

[Hanzou]

Regardless of the style you do, if you train twice a week are you giving yourself enough time on the floor to deal with a-hole situations ? A-holes that are 'bigger' and 'stronger' picking on 'smaller' and 'weaker' people are a special kind of a-hole. Says a lot more about them than it does about the person they are picking on. Says a lot about 'Bob the Lawyer' if he feels that putting the a-hole down physically is the right call. You would think Bob the Lawyer would be able to sort that out using his lawyerly skills but then again it is best to have more than one method of dealing with an aggressor.

Bob the lawyer might not get the opportunity to use his lawyerly skills, and his Aikido dojo might only offer two classes a week, yet advertise that they will teach him how to defend himself against bigger and larger opponents.

 

[Urban Trekker]

By that metric I would contend that Kimbo Was a trained fighter before he started mma. The same applies to other tough guys and frequent street fighters. They've trained for violence by putting themselves through violence. In my circle we call that 'adrenal inoculation'.

This is "feel good" logic. It helps trained fighters sleep better at night "knowing" that it took a "trained fighter" to beat a trained fighter.

 

[Urban Trekker]

You would think Bob the Lawyer would be able to sort that out using his lawyerly skills but then again it is best to have more than one method of dealing with an aggressor.

If a hoodlum could be reasoned with, he wouldn't be a hoodlum in the first place.

 

[Steve]

I find that the majority of the people who are in the Martial arts dojos aren't trained fighters. They take martial arts for other reasons.

This statement right here encapsulates the fundamental difference between aikido and other grappling arts like Judo or BJJ. I personally think that if you join a martial arts school, you should be learning what they say you're learning. I've never seen the martial arts school advert that says, "We don't teach you to fight, but you'll get some exercise and meet some nice people."

Those who actually train to fight are a small percentage and I would put my money on those guys who actually train to fight to out perform those who don't train.

I think in a good school in a system that is structurally sound, 100% of people who train there are learning to fight. Whether they can manage someone like Kimbo Slice is relative. What's more constructive and reliable is to measure whether folks are learning to fight based on where they started, their rate of progress, and then ultimately what their individual ceiling is.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Picture this: a fight between TMA with no experience versus experienced with no training.

One wouldn't think someone with no experience will well in any situation. This is how I rank skill levels
1. Experience with Training
2. Experience with no training
3. No Experience with Training
4. No Experience with no training.

# 4 is not better than number # 3. #3 is not better than #2. #2 is not better than #1.

To think that someone with no experience can out perform someone with experience isn't something that you should be concerned with.

If you want to compare TMA. then you should compare it with TMA with experience fighting but no training (self taught) vs someone who has experienced with fighting but does not train in a system.

In this case I'm going to say the TMA guy is going to have a better skill set than the guy just swinging hard shots. with no training. People who self train in a TMA with fight experience can still get some good kicks in. They will spend time kicking a bag with low kicks or throwing jabs, which gives them a better chance than someone who just gets in a fight and windmills everyone.

There's a lot of people out there who have experience fighting but it doesn't mean that it's quality experience.

 

[Urban Trekker]

This statement right here encapsulates the fundamental difference between aikido and other grappling arts like Judo or BJJ. I personally think that if you join a martial arts school, you should be learning what they say you're learning. I've never seen the martial arts school advert that says, "We don't teach you to fight, but you'll get some exercise and meet some nice people."

Cardio kickboxing does that. If aikido went that route, it would be far less controversial.

 

[MadMartigan]

So you said,

You know what I equate that to? A guy with a college degree and no experience versus a guy with experience and no college degree applying for the same job. Who's gonna be able to do the job better?

Then I said,

what is "training" but doing something over and over until you get really good at it.

By that metric I would contend that Kimbo Was a trained fighter before he started mma. The same applies to other tough guys and frequent street fighters. They've trained for violence by putting themselves through violence. In my circle we call that 'adrenal inoculation'.

But somehow we were disagreeing?

This is "feel good" logic. It helps trained fighters sleep better at night "knowing" that it took a "trained fighter" to beat a trained fighter.

Starting to think perhaps the arguement was more important than the topic.

 

[Steve]

Regardless of the style you do, if you train twice a week are you giving yourself enough time on the floor to deal with a-hole situations ?

Hard to say, but getting back to the topic of this thread, I think the question is valid, but style has a lot to do with it. The style in which you train will most certainly play a major role in what your answer to the question will be.

 

[Steve]

Cardio kickboxing does that. If aikido went that route, it would be far less controversial.

Well, I don't think cardio kickboxing is even marketed as a martial art. That said, I do think if you train diligently in cardio kickboxing, you will be better prepared to defend yourself than someone who trains in some actual martial arts. Not because you have any practical fighting skill, but because you'll be physically fit.

 

[Urban Trekker]

So you said,


Then I said,

But somehow we were disagreeing?

It looks like we disagree on whether or not experience and training are mutually exclusive terms.

 

[Steve]

You know what I equate that to? A guy with a college degree and no experience versus a guy with experience and no college degree applying for the same job. Who's gonna be able to do the job better?

Out of the gate? Depends on the job. Ideally, you're going to end up with an employee who has both, and so you're better off hiring a guy who exhibits other traits and an aptitude for the trade.

 

[Steve]

Kinda feels like more of a semantic argument. In my opinion, what is "training" but doing something over and over until you get really good at it. Going to classes doesn't make you good; repetition with intention does

Repetition with intention only gets you so far... and I'd say on the spectrum of skill level, not much further than just going through the motions.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Well, I don't think cardio kickboxing is even marketed as a martial art. That said, I do think if you train diligently in cardio kickboxing, you will be better prepared to defend yourself than someone who trains in some actual martial arts. Not because you have any practical fighting skill, but because you'll be physically fit.

Something that immediately comes to mind: for the average mark, their inability to defend themselves comes from lacking the confidence to throw a punch or a kick and not knowing their own potential. Much like TMA, cardio kickboxing could have the effect of reversing that. It won't get you into the cage, but there's probably some value there.

 

[MadMartigan]

It looks like we disagree on whether or not experience and training are mutually exclusive terms.

Hmm. Not sure exactly where you stand there.. so I can just clarify my position.

1. Experience with Training
2. Experience with no training
3. No Experience with Training
4. No Experience with no training.

I agree with this ranking completely. The semantic difference is just that I view experience in and of itself can be a form of training. Just as proper training should do it's best to simulate experience.

The same as your example of experience vs college education. If I had to choose which side of the coin, I'd bet on the experienced fighter. I think we would all agree that the best fighter is the guy with both.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Hard to say, but getting back to the topic of this thread, I think the question is valid, but style has a lot to do with it. The style in which you train will most certainly play a major role in what your answer to the question will be.

Yes, the style will play a role in how you respond but it isn't like a playing a trump card. You still have to put in the work to become proficient and you still need to test yourself regularly to ensure that the things you are practicing will actually work when you need them.

Well, I don't think cardio kickboxing is even marketed as a martial art. That said, I do think if you train diligently in cardio kickboxing, you will be better prepared to defend yourself than someone who trains in some actual martial arts. Not because you have any practical fighting skill, but because you'll be physically fit.

I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that people doing cardio kickboxing will fare better than someone that trains in a MA but I will agree that they would possibly do better if it was a bad MA school.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I personally think that if you join a martial arts school, you should be learning what they say you're learning. I've never seen the martial arts school advert that says, "We don't teach you to fight, but you'll get some exercise and meet some nice people."

Actually the ones I've seen say exactly this by not stating that they teach people how to fight.

This is straight from a TKD school down the the street from me.
"As such, Master (removed name) states that "the primary purpose of tae kwon do is character development, and self-defense is secondary."

If the primary purpose of your TKD is character development then you probably aren't doing too much fighting. This is from their Black Belt Program
"Black Belts demonstrate leadership during class, through community service, and in their commitment to excellence in all areas of their lives."

Notice what they are focusing on.

You'll find a similar focus on a lot of TMA websites.