Aikido.. The reality?

Hanzou

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Actually the ones I've seen say exactly this by not stating that they teach people how to fight.

This is straight from a TKD school down the the street from me.
"As such, Master (removed name) states that "the primary purpose of tae kwon do is character development, and self-defense is secondary."

If the primary purpose of your TKD is character development then you probably aren't doing too much fighting. This is from their Black Belt Program
"Black Belts demonstrate leadership during class, through community service, and in their commitment to excellence in all areas of their lives."

Notice what they are focusing on.

You'll find a similar focus on a lot of TMA websites.

And this is from 2 Aikido schools in Atlanta;

"Aikido is a Japanese Martial art based on techniques derived from traditional Samurai battle tactics. Developed in the early 20th century by Morihei Ueshiba (known as O’Sensei), Aikido is a purely defensive art. Rather than meeting force with reciprocal force, the practitioner blends with and redirects the power of the attack resulting in the attacker either being thrown or immobilized. Thus, it is the attackers own force and aggression which causes his/her downfall. Because of this principle of “active non-resistance”, Aikido can be effectively performed even against larger, stronger attackers. At the higher levels of the art, it is equally effective against multiple attackers.

Aikido is not a sport or a game
. There are no tournaments or competitions. Rather, practice is conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and cooperation. Aikido is distinguished by a highly developed moral code which seeks to protect the assailant while simultaneously neutralizing his will and ability to attack.

While Aikido is an extremely effective martial art, self-defense is considered the foundation rather than the ultimate goal of our practice.
Aikido is path or “way” which, if practiced diligently, can enhance all aspects of one’s life."

and.....

"Aikido is a true budo (pronounced “boo-dough”) or martial way of life, evolved from the historic tradition of Japanese warrior arts into an effective and enlightened form of self-defense. With Aikido, it is possible to subdue a much larger aggressor using minimal effort, but the ultimate goal of Aikido is to resolve conflict safely and effectively without promoting violence to solve problems. When studied in earnest, Aikido is not merely a science of techniques and tactics for self-defense but a discipline for perfecting the spirit"
 
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Urban Trekker

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Actually the ones I've seen say exactly this by not stating that they teach people how to fight.

This is straight from a TKD school down the the street from me.
"As such, Master (removed name) states that "the primary purpose of tae kwon do is character development, and self-defense is secondary."

If the primary purpose of your TKD is character development then you probably aren't doing too much fighting. This is from their Black Belt Program
"Black Belts demonstrate leadership during class, through community service, and in their commitment to excellence in all areas of their lives."

Notice what they are focusing on.

You'll find a similar focus on a lot of TMA websites.

I'm sure you know this, and I'm sure the dojang owner knows this too: people perceive this as lip service, particularly towards parents looking for a place to enroll their children, and that the dojang is really selling self-defense anyway.
 
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Steve

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Actually the ones I've seen say exactly this by not stating that they teach people how to fight.

This is straight from a TKD school down the the street from me.
"As such, Master (removed name) states that "the primary purpose of tae kwon do is character development, and self-defense is secondary."

If the primary purpose of your TKD is character development then you probably aren't doing too much fighting. This is from their Black Belt Program
"Black Belts demonstrate leadership during class, through community service, and in their commitment to excellence in all areas of their lives."

Notice what they are focusing on.

You'll find a similar focus on a lot of TMA websites.
This isn't the same as what I said. If I take a pottery class that said character development is our primary goal and pottery skill is secondary, I would still expect to learn to throw pottery.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I think in a good school in a system that is structurally sound, 100% of people who train there are learning to fight.
It's really difficult to do this with a TMA schools. The customer base is different. I tried to get the last kung fu school I was in to appeal to more fighters but the customer base is just too different.

People who train Kung Fu = people who want to do forms
People who train MMA = people who don't want to do forms.

Forms are a big part of TMA and it's difficult to get those who like MMA to see that forms are beneficial when trained properly. I don't know too many TMA people who don't like forms.
 

gpseymour

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I've been trying to tell people this for a long time. People seem to forget that Kimbo Slice was an untrained fighter.

People act as though Sheldon Cooper can get a black belt from some dojo/dojang/kwoon at the strip mall two blocks from his house, then go on to beat up bikers and other hoodlums and ruffians. That's a fantasy.
That's an extreme overstatement of the position most folks take on this.
 

gpseymour

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Not even sports, just a-holes who like to bully and attack people. People like that have a mindset where they are aggressive and thus very dangerous, and will seek out people they perceive to be smaller or weaker than themselves. What's worse, these people are used to hitting and getting hit, and are used to adrenaline dumps and various levels of violence that Bob the lawyer who is a black belt and does Aikido twice a week simply isn't used to.
Most grapplers are likely to be in trouble if they take a solid hit (assuming their experience is only with grappling). Which art someone is training in doesn't change that too much. Possibly those taking harder falls will be less surprised by that first hit, but anyone would do better if they've experienced hits in their training.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I'm sure you know this, and I'm sure the dojang owner knows this too: people perceive this as lip service, particularly towards parents looking for a place to enroll their children, and that the dojang is really selling self-defense anyway.
But there are non-fighting aspects of self-defense as well. For example, when someone takes a self-defense class they usually aren't sparring and fighting each other. They may strike a bag and work on escapes but there's no sparring. Self-defense isn't always about fighting. At least for me, the majority of the self-defense that I do doesn't require fighting.

There have been people who don't know how to fight, who have successfully fought off attackers.. In terms of self-defense the attackers are usually trying to do something else other than get in a boxing match with you.

The way I see it is. Fighting is self-defense, but Self-defense isn't only about fighting. Self-defense stategies is not the same as fighting strategies.
 

gpseymour

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It's really difficult to do this with a TMA schools. The customer base is different. I tried to get the last kung fu school I was in to appeal to more fighters but the customer base is just too different.

People who train Kung Fu = people who want to do forms
People who train MMA = people who don't want to do forms.

Forms are a big part of TMA and it's difficult to get those who like MMA to see that forms are beneficial when trained properly. I don't know too many TMA people who don't like forms.
One of the issues at play is who you want to serve. If you only want to serve those who want to train seriously for fighting, you can focus training in that direction. If you want to serve a different audience, you can't really run classes like you would for folks interested in training seriously for fighting - most folks in other audiences won't be interested in that. Which I think is fine - that's why we have a wide range of programs to choose from in most areas.
 

gpseymour

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But there are non-fighting aspects of self-defense as well. For example, when someone takes a self-defense class they usually aren't sparring and fighting each other. They may strike a bag and work on escapes but there's no sparring. Self-defense isn't always about fighting. At least for me, the majority of the self-defense that I do doesn't require fighting.

There have been people who don't know how to fight, who have successfully fought off attackers.. In terms of self-defense the attackers are usually trying to do something else other than get in a boxing match with you.

The way I see it is. Fighting is self-defense, but Self-defense isn't only about fighting. Self-defense stategies is not the same as fighting strategies.
I think if self-defense is an objective, there should be sparring. I'm not sure how you evaluate the ability to deliver the techniques without that.
 

Martial D

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But there are non-fighting aspects of self-defense as well. For example, when someone takes a self-defense class they usually aren't sparring and fighting each other. They may strike a bag and work on escapes but there's no sparring. Self-defense isn't always about fighting. At least for me, the majority of the self-defense that I do doesn't require fighting.

There have been people who don't know how to fight, who have successfully fought off attackers.. In terms of self-defense the attackers are usually trying to do something else other than get in a boxing match with you.

The way I see it is. Fighting is self-defense, but Self-defense isn't only about fighting. Self-defense stategies is not the same as fighting strategies.
This is partially why self defense courses are mostly useless.

Yes. Self defense isn't always about getting tangled up physically. Yet if that is the scenario you find yourself in, it is unquestionably better to have actual experience against resistance than to be feeling it for the first time when it's too late.
 

Hanzou

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Most grapplers are likely to be in trouble if they take a solid hit (assuming their experience is only with grappling). Which art someone is training in doesn't change that too much. Possibly those taking harder falls will be less surprised by that first hit, but anyone would do better if they've experienced hits in their training.

The advantage that grapplers have is that many fights wind up in a clinch even while blows are being exchanged, which will place them directly in their comfort zone (unless you're dealing with a better grappler). Very rarely can someone circle and strike someone with impunity unless they're an exceptional striker, like a boxer.

In addition, self defense situations where someone is striking you standing up is rarely a problem. If someone is "putting up their dukes" and wants to hit you, you don't need to engage you can simply back up and walk away. You're really only forced to engage when someone has grabbed you and won't let you go. That's when you're forced to fight back in order to escape. Again, that's advantageous for a grappler.
 

Yokozuna514

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I think if self-defense is an objective, there should be sparring. I'm not sure how you evaluate the ability to deliver the techniques without that.
I think it is going to be very difficult to spar safely and repeatedly if SD is the objective. Yes, people need to practice SD skills but against a live opponent that isn't padded to the gills is not going to make for a long session. If they are padded to the gills, it may not give you the proper feedback to help you develop the skill.

IMO, SD courses should be a primer to introduce new people to a world of possibilities in a particular system. They can then practice skills in a safe manner repeatedly and with the understanding that these techniques will need to be modified for SD applications.
 

Steve

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It's really difficult to do this with a TMA schools. The customer base is different. I tried to get the last kung fu school I was in to appeal to more fighters but the customer base is just too different.

People who train Kung Fu = people who want to do forms
People who train MMA = people who don't want to do forms.

Forms are a big part of TMA and it's difficult to get those who like MMA to see that forms are beneficial when trained properly. I don't know too many TMA people who don't like forms.
Just don't claim to be teaching self defense, then. It's not a big deal. My point isn't to judge one thing over another. There's value in whatever floats one's boat. The point is, if you're running a business, it's easy to just be clear about the actual service you're providing.

And conversely, if you are alleging to sell a product, it's on you to ensure you're providing that product, whether that product is in the form of goods or a service.

Regarding forms, I don't think it's that simple. Forms/kata is really just an example of how folks feel like victims of a bait and switch. "I thought I was learning self defense, but what I was really learning is forms." Forms are a shorthand for a training model that doesn't teach what it purports to teach.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Truth:
No one gets into a ring or fighting competition to test out there self defense skills.

When I was teaching sparring classes. It was all about fighting there was no mention talk or discussion about self-defense.

When I was teaching self-defense class. There was very little mention about one's fighting skills. It was more like. If you can talk your way out of fight then do it. If you have a brick that you can use, then use it. If you have a stick that you can use then use it. There was no sparring involved in the way that someone would fight in a sporting competition. There were some outside escape drills, and a lot of awareness drills. Like there would be 7 people. 1 victim and 1 attacker. The other 5 people were just noise, so you never knew who would attack you, unless you could pick up the signs of the attack soon enough.

A lot of what I taught in self-defense were things you weren't going to see in a ring. My sparring was all about learning how to juse Jow Ga fighting techniques. There was no discussion about talking someone down or running away. There was only one focus. Get hit, hit back, and only strike with Jow Ga techniques.

I don't see fighting and self-defense as the same thing. Not even close. If a school says they teach self-defense, I don't automatically include fighting into that category. When I want a school that actually trains to use the techniques, then I want to see a lot of reference to things that a person needs for fighting and less reference about my personal development and my self-confidence.
 
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JowGaWolf

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The point is, if you're running a business, it's easy to just be clear about the actual service you're providing.
I agree with this. I do think that some TMA schools aren't clear on what they mean when they say self-defense. There's a lot of aspects to self-defense and I think that should be clear. Even when I teach self-defense classes. I'm very clear on what aspects of self-defense will be covered. I think TMA schools should be equally clear on what aspects of TMA are they covering. Are they talking about fighting back an attacker? or are they talking about getting into the ring or both?

Not everyone knows what self-defense is about. Some confuse it with only being about fighting and I've had to correct students about that as well. Because some where trying to do kung fu when they should have been trying to create distance between them and there attacker. Then doing stupid stuff like backing themselves against he wall to prevent imaginary attackers from jumping on their backs..

But yeah sparring was always about fighting and learning how to fight with what we were training. I think too many TMA schools have a negative view of fighting and that's just not the reality of fighting. I think controlled fighting is actually healthy in numerous ways. But I'm probably alone on that .
 

Buka

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Out of the gate? Depends on the job. Ideally, you're going to end up with an employee who has both, and so you're better off hiring a guy who exhibits other traits and an aptitude for the trade.
I'll never forget what the VP of a rather large corporation told me at a social setting after a few drinks. He shared "I'll hire the kid with the degree over a kid with experience because I know if he was patient enough to go through all the BS of college, he'll be patient enough to go through all the BS my company is going to put him through."

I still laugh when I think about it. But it was a fair point.
 

Steve

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Most grapplers are likely to be in trouble if they take a solid hit (assuming their experience is only with grappling). Which art someone is training in doesn't change that too much. Possibly those taking harder falls will be less surprised by that first hit, but anyone would do better if they've experienced hits in their training.
I am so confused right now. Are you actually saying that people without experience are likely to be in trouble? Come on, man.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Most grapplers are likely to be in trouble if they take a solid hit.
This is why I believe not to get punched is the most important MA skill.

In the

- beginner training stage, if your opponent throws 100 punches at you and no punch can land on your body,
- advance training stage, if you don't allow your opponent to throw more than 10 punches,

you should have developed some useful MA skill.

The interested question is

- What kind of training do you need in order to reach to your goal?
 

Steve

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I'll never forget what the VP of a rather large corporation told me at a social setting after a few drinks. He shared "I'll hire the kid with the degree over a kid with experience because I know if he was patient enough to go through all the BS of college, he'll be patient enough to go through all the BS my company is going to put him through."

I still laugh when I think about it. But it was a fair point.
Funny story, but there's some truth to it. If someone is optimistic, coachable, and has aptitude, you can teach them to do just about anything.
 
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