Aikido.. The reality?

drop bear

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But there are non-fighting aspects of self-defense as well. For example, when someone takes a self-defense class they usually aren't sparring and fighting each other. They may strike a bag and work on escapes but there's no sparring. Self-defense isn't always about fighting. At least for me, the majority of the self-defense that I do doesn't require fighting.

There have been people who don't know how to fight, who have successfully fought off attackers.. In terms of self-defense the attackers are usually trying to do something else other than get in a boxing match with you.

The way I see it is. Fighting is self-defense, but Self-defense isn't only about fighting. Self-defense stategies is not the same as fighting strategies.

This falls down if you have moved from a place we can see to a place we can't see.

So if say self defence school can't fight. But they say they focus on de-escalation, awareness, or whatever.

We still need to verify that works.

Not everything successful in the school occurring somewhere nobody Chan check.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Aikido can be effectively performed even against larger, stronger attackers. At the higher levels of the art, it is equally effective against multiple attackers.
I was find with it right up to this point. This doesn't sit well with me. Lots of things change in terms of larger and stronger attackers. On the most basic levels, the required grip strength needed will increase. Jow Ga is techniques are trained to fight against multiple attackers, but we don't boast about the effectiveness because the more people there are the more opportunity there is for something to go wrong. Watch people play American Football being chased by multiple people who are trying to tackle, highlights the difficulty on the smallest of scales. A multiple, kicks, punches, grabs, and possibly a weapon of some sort and things will quickly become more complicated, one misstep and it could be game over.

Aikido is not a sport or a game. There are no tournaments or competitions. Rather, practice is conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and cooperation. Aikido is distinguished by a highly developed moral code which seeks to protect the assailant while simultaneously neutralizing his will and ability to attack.
This contradicts the first paragraph that you wrote. This is actually a red flag for me. Even if it wasn't an Aikido school. Protecting the assailant is counter productive. Might as well let that person have their way with you.
Aikido is a true budo (pronounced “boo-dough”) or martial way of life, evolved from the historic tradition of Japanese warrior arts into an effective and enlightened form of self-defense.
Historically incorrect. Also contradicts "Samurai Battle tactics" Japanese warriors were some of the most brutal warriors in history and they kept that mindset all the way to WWII.
ultimate goal of Aikido is to resolve conflict safely and effectively without promoting violence to solve problems.
This is the truth about what they teach at that school. Extreme Zen. Contradictions galore. But the truth finally came out at the end.
Aikido is not merely a science of techniques and tactics for self-defense but a discipline for perfecting the spirit"
I'm going to go throw up now. The concept of "Perfecting the spirit" is a flawed concept. The Human spirit was never meant to be perfect and in my own personal experience is that those who claimed "Perfecting the human Spirit" are often the worst of us. Not sure where that school is in Atlanta, but I would avoid it for numerous reason. I'll do a random search on Aikido in Atlanta to see if I get something similar from another school.
 
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JowGaWolf

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This is why I believe not to get punched is the most important MA skill.

In the

- beginner training stage, if your opponent throws 100 punches at you and no punch can land on your body,
- advance training stage, if you don't allow your opponent to throw more than 10 punches,

you should have developed some useful MA skill.

The interested question is

- What kind of training do you need in order to reach to your goal?
Not getting punched in a fight or attack = mission impossible.

It's better to learn how to reduce the damage from the hits and then avoid all of the crucial stuff that will cause the most damage
 

Hanzou

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I was find with it right up to this point. This doesn't sit well with me. Lots of things change in terms of larger and stronger attackers. On the most basic levels, the required grip strength needed will increase. Jow Ga is techniques are trained to fight against multiple attackers, but we don't boast about the effectiveness because the more people there are the more opportunity there is for something to go wrong. Watch people play American Football being chased by multiple people who are trying to tackle, highlights the difficulty on the smallest of scales. A multiple, kicks, punches, grabs, and possibly a weapon of some sort and things will quickly become more complicated, one misstep and it could be game over.


This contradicts the first paragraph that you wrote. This is actually a red flag for me. Even if it wasn't an Aikido school. Protecting the assailant is counter productive. Might as well let that person have their way with you.

Historically incorrect. Also contradicts "Samurai Battle tactics" Japanese warriors were some of the most brutal warriors in history and they kept that mindset all the way to WWII.

This is the truth about what they teach at that school. Extreme Zen. Contradictions galore. But the truth finally came out at the end.

I'm going to go throw up now. The concept of "Perfecting the spirit" is a flawed concept. The Human spirit was never meant to be perfect and in my own personal experience is that those who claimed "Perfecting the human Spirit" are often the worst of us. Not sure where that school is in Atlanta, but I would avoid it for numerous reason. I'll do a random search on Aikido in Atlanta to see if I get something similar from another school.

The links to the schools are in post #799.
 
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JowGaWolf

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So if say self defence school can't fight. But they say they focus on de-escalation, awareness, or whatever.

We still need to verify that works.
This should be easy to do. Simply ask students. When was the last time you were in a conflict? Did you use any methods taught at the school? Did it work? Did it help you avoid the physical contact?

If a person has conflicts and is able to avoid the physical fights then, much can be said about his or her non-fighting self defense skill sets.

If the person gets into conflicts that turn into physical fights most of the time then you can feel comfortable that their non-fighting defensive skills are lacking.

If I were to take a self-defense class. I would want to take it from someone who gets into conflicts but is able to avoid the fights.. Then I would take a separate class that focuses on fighting or using a weapon.
 
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JowGaWolf

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The links to the schools are in post #799.
Curiosity has the best of me on this one. Their page probably has a Zen look to it.

Edit. Oh I remember seeing those sites. That's when you guys were neck deep with fighting Aikido lol. I didn't pay much attention to that.

So I looked at another school. This one isn't too far from me I don't think. Depends on traffic I guess. The only thing I can say about this school is that, this does not a look like a real wrist lock. Yoshinkan Aikido


This is the founder below. I didn't see much about what they do on the website they have but none of it was zen.

Straight from their website about page
"Home | Kikentai1

"We may not use the sword as self-defense in present day, but applying samurai sword techniques with aikido and Bo is an extremely efficient form of self-defense." This doesn't seem unrealistic to me. Use the same techniques when using a Bo for self-defense.

If you know how to use a Bo then yes it's going to be a really good self-defense. One would have to to see their training to know more.





 
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Martial D

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Truth:
No one gets into a ring or fighting competition to test out there self defense skills.

When I was teaching sparring classes. It was all about fighting there was no mention talk or discussion about self-defense.

When I was teaching self-defense class. There was very little mention about one's fighting skills. It was more like. If you can talk your way out of fight then do it. If you have a brick that you can use, then use it. If you have a stick that you can use then use it. There was no sparring involved in the way that someone would fight in a sporting competition. There were some outside escape drills, and a lot of awareness drills. Like there would be 7 people. 1 victim and 1 attacker. The other 5 people were just noise, so you never knew who would attack you, unless you could pick up the signs of the attack soon enough.

A lot of what I taught in self-defense were things you weren't going to see in a ring. My sparring was all about learning how to juse Jow Ga fighting techniques. There was no discussion about talking someone down or running away. There was only one focus. Get hit, hit back, and only strike with Jow Ga techniques.

I don't see fighting and self-defense as the same thing. Not even close. If a school says they teach self-defense, I don't automatically include fighting into that category. When I want a school that actually trains to use the techniques, then I want to see a lot of reference to things that a person needs for fighting and less reference about my personal development and my self-confidence.
I hate the term 'self defense' to be honest, it can mean almost anything. But to stay safe there are many layers of preparation , awareness, de-escalation techniques and thinking on your feet that precede anything physical. If your game is on point, you might not ever need to put your hands on anyone.

But it seems like a really bad idea to not have your last line of defense as sharp as the others if you are serious about it.

Also, what is different about punches, kicks, throws and grappling 'in a ring' than anywhere else? I often see you and others try to draw this line like once something happens in a sports setting it is something different and inapplicable to any other setting. It isn't.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Not getting punched in a fight or attack = mission impossible.

It's better to learn how to reduce the damage from the hits and then avoid all of the crucial stuff that will cause the most damage
One has to train how to deal with punches. Some MA styles such as Aikido just don't train enough in this area.

The training is simple. Your opponent tries to knock your head off. You try not to get knocked down. Try for 1 minute per round. Test 15 rounds daily.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Also, what is different about punches, kicks, throws and grappling 'in a ring' than anywhere else? I often see you and others try to draw this line like once something happens in a sports setting it is something different and inapplicable to any other setting. It isn't.
Because if I see a weapon, brick, rock, sand, knife, tire iron, lamp, cord, chair, or anything that I think will give me an advantage then I'm going to take it, and use it against the person who is attacking me. That's the difference. I train Kung Fu but that doesn't mean I'm against using other objects to attack people.

When I was in Australia. I got into a conflict with an adult who was trying to beat up a teenager. I came to the teenagers Aid. The Adult had been running (exercising) and he intentionally bumped into the teenager and tried to pick a fight. I approached the adult and got him to focus on me. During that conflict I had positioned him between me and the street. Why? Because it wasn't beneath me to push him into traffic. And if anyone was going to have the option to do such a thing it will be me. I was not going to give him the option to do the same so I took that option away from him.

While some people will try to show off their kicks and punches. There are people out there like me who wouldn't mind stabbing or shooting you in self-defense. So that's the difference. If you don't think people in the U.S won't blast you with a gun in a fight then think again.

If you don't think people in the Dominican republic won't take a machete to you, then think again. Kick and punch all you want. If you are in a fight that's truly self-defense then you better take the option that gives you best advantage.

MMA fighter who stabbed someone to death after someone broke in his home. He took the option that gave him the best advantage.
 
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JowGaWolf

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But it seems like a really bad idea to not have your last line of defense as sharp as the others if you are serious about it.
By the way I agree with this and I often tell gun owners who depend completely on their guns for protection. There have been cases in the U.S. where people who were carrying guns got robbed of their guns while carrying it. That person could have worked on their awareness better. For me personally I don't get nervous or scared when I see people who carry guns. Seeing a gun simply gives a criminal an accurate understanding of the approach to take if they want to rob the guy with the gun.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I hate the term "self defense" too. You assumes that you are the only good guy, everybody on earth are all bad guys and try to get you. It's a terrible way to live your life this way.
I like it, because if all heck breaks loose. I'm telling the cops that I did what I did out of self defense lol.
 

Buka

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This contradicts the first paragraph that you wrote. This is actually a red flag for me. Even if it wasn't an Aikido school. Protecting the assailant is counter productive. Might as well let that person have their way with you.
I don't mean to cherry pick your post, but there are exceptions to one thing. In police work, at least all the police work I've been involved in, you try your damnedest not to hurt the person you're arresting or trying to separate from others.

Sometimes you might want to smack the crap out of them, but you just can't.
 

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I think it is going to be very difficult to spar safely and repeatedly if SD is the objective. Yes, people need to practice SD skills but against a live opponent that isn't padded to the gills is not going to make for a long session. If they are padded to the gills, it may not give you the proper feedback to help you develop the skill.

IMO, SD courses should be a primer to introduce new people to a world of possibilities in a particular system. They can then practice skills in a safe manner repeatedly and with the understanding that these techniques will need to be modified for SD applications.
Basic fighting skills are a part of the toolkit. You don't have to be practicing breaks to be practicing SD. If you can't control spacing and timing, the techniques will never come into play. So, even if the keystone elements aren't good for sparring, the foundations of control are. If you're not practicing controlling people who are resisting, I doubt whether the techniques will be very useful.
 

gpseymour

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beginner training stage, if your opponent throws 100 punches at you and no punch can land on your body,
IF this happens, they are either not trying to hit you, or are pretty bad at it, or you are much more skilled than them. With similar skill levels, this won't happen.
 

gpseymour

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I hate the term "self defense" too. You assumes that you are the only good guy, everybody on earth are all bad guys and try to get you. It's a terrible way to live your life this way.
I've never heard any SD instructor take this view. Not sure where you get it from that term.
 

Martial D

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Because if I see a weapon, brick, rock, sand, knife, tire iron, lamp, cord, chair, or anything that I think will give me an advantage then I'm going to take it, and use it against the person who is attacking me. That's the difference. I train Kung Fu but that doesn't mean I'm against using other objects to attack people.

When I was in Australia. I got into a conflict with an adult who was trying to beat up a teenager. I came to the teenagers Aid. The Adult had been running (exercising) and he intentionally bumped into the teenager and tried to pick a fight. I approached the adult and got him to focus on me. During that conflict I had positioned him between me and the street. Why? Because it wasn't beneath me to push him into traffic. And if anyone was going to have the option to do such a thing it will be me. I was not going to give him the option to do the same so I took that option away from him.

While some people will try to show off their kicks and punches. There are people out there like me who wouldn't mind stabbing or shooting you in self-defense. So that's the difference. If you don't think people in the U.S won't blast you with a gun in a fight then think again.

If you don't think people in the Dominican republic won't take a machete to you, then think again. Kick and punch all you want. If you are in a fight that's truly self-defense then you better take the option that gives you best advantage.

MMA fighter who stabbed someone to death after someone broke in his home. He took the option that gave him the best advantage.
Sure but that has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.
 

Martial D

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I've never heard any SD instructor take this view. Not sure where you get it from that term.
I get it though. If you are in your 40s or older, you probably remember a time where people weren't so afraid of eachother. Maybe even when people didn't lock their houses or cars. Now everyone sees a stranger as a potential threat instead of a potential friend. It's sad really.
 

Buka

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I get it though. If you are in your 40s or older, you probably remember a time where people weren't so afraid of eachother. Maybe even when people didn't lock their houses or cars. Now everyone sees a stranger as a potential threat instead of a potential friend. It's sad really.
It is sad. Hell, when I was a little kid we never locked the house or car. Can't even imagine that now.
I'd have nightmares.
 

drop bear

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This should be easy to do. Simply ask students. When was the last time you were in a conflict? Did you use any methods taught at the school? Did it work? Did it help you avoid the physical contact?

If a person has conflicts and is able to avoid the physical fights then, much can be said about his or her non-fighting self defense skill sets.

If the person gets into conflicts that turn into physical fights most of the time then you can feel comfortable that their non-fighting defensive skills are lacking.

If I were to take a self-defense class. I would want to take it from someone who gets into conflicts but is able to avoid the fights.. Then I would take a separate class that focuses on fighting or using a weapon.

Ok but you could compare that to a ballet class.
A lot of fights just don't happen. Regardless as to the method we use.
 

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