Zenjael's Self-Defense Methodologies

MJS

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Good God dude, Please learn to use the quote feature. Reading this...well, how can anyone know who the hell you're replying to???



I would venture to say then that the black belt in that school is ritualized. That's fine, to each school's own philosophy.

But with dedication, one should be able to learn the execution of the techniques in the system within a month, tops, if they were truly committed and devoted their time to it. It only takes, from what I was told, around 500 sequences of a technique for it to become muscle memory, and about 2000 for it to become instinctual response memory.

So that we don't memorize useless clutter, our brains have a technique where they effectively edit out repetitousnous. For example, if you touch your nose and foot at the same time, you feel them simultaneously. However, physically the nerves from your foot take longer to arrive, and as such we should feel a delay, even if minor. The reason we don't, is that the brain edits out that gap.

If one cannot learn, say, the first 100 basic techniques in a system in a month, I would advise them to work on their ability to absorb information and how they train. For most forms, and katas, I need to watch it twice and can emulate it in the style. A lot of people who cross-train in styles eventually find themself able to do this.

I see no reason, with an adequate teacher teaching the technique, a student should not be able to execute it correctly after it is explained to them, given that physical limitations are not doing just that. Of course I understand that not everyone has the flexibility to do a vertical side-kick. But if you then migrate to another style which has a verticle-front kick, there is no reason one should not be able to within a week, tops, to execute the vert front kick as well as the side.

The master form in IKC Kenpo contains every move in the entire system. You learned the system, you've learned that style of kenpo. For the employer I work, to teach their curriculum, I had to learn it in a week. I hate the form, but because of it learned the kenpo system. Am I a master? No. Am I ranked in it? No, but I do still possess my third Dan. Have I incorporated every technique into how I fight? No, but few implement, fluidly, with complete control every technique they know how to do, in a fight.

Once you learn the techniques, you have a lifetime to learn how to perfect them. Hopefully one has chosen a teacher who will be there to correct when necessary, but honestly, with proper explanation, once execute properly and physical limitations are overcome, there is no reason it should not be executed everytime thereafter correctly.

LMFAO! And this just goes to show your immaturity in the arts. And you claim 19yrs? Oh my... Well, to be honest, you're wrong, very wrong. Sure, it shouldn't take long for someone to learn something, BUT, to really learn it, is going to take much longer than what you said above. See, this is where your logic/thinking is flawed. This is why people say that you're a jack of all trades, master of none. You jump around from place to place, you think you're learning a ton of stuff, but in reality, you have, but none of it is all that good. Why? Because you're not devoting time. Oh, and on a side note....I really hope that this is just you being clueless and not trolling. We take a strong stance on people who troll the forum.




I don't teach to people who dont want to listen, and I don't learn from teachers who dont desire to teach, but to be correct. I have been accused of a lot of ego-tripping on this board apparently, yet it is ironic that the majority of the people who accuse me of this are lower in rank.

This from a guy who comes off as a know it all, and is receiving damn good advice from people who're older, wiser and have been training much longer...yet you seem to not want to listen.


If you would like to say he ran a Mcdojo, know that he promoted over 200 black belts in his martial arts career. And every single one deserved it, without exception. He had 0 problem failing people for even the smallest reasons. It's why I left an actual Mcdojo school and changed to his. And it saved me as a martial artist.

Quality over quantity. Going on what you've said, yeah, it sounds like a mcdojo.

Why would you retest someone when they have already proven themself? Would you ask your master to retest for his dan, or would you give a martial artist the integrity, and respect they deserve which I am giving to you guys. Which I had thought the norm in martial arts.

LOL..what??? Dude, did you listen to what I said? Here, let me clarify. Because some schools dont feel that a child should wear a full, adult BB, they have a junior BB. Usually in this case, the kid is learning half of what the adults do. The Jr. BB is designed to allow them time to a) mature, b) reach an age in which the adult BB can be given, c) learn the rest of the material. What the **** does any of that have to do with someone already proving themselves or retesting your "master"? Nothing! Testing a 12yr old for an adult BB is a joke, and I highly doubt they'd be able to keep up. Thus the reason for retesting.
 

MJS

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I feel you have read the majority of my posts through a lens which gives a check minus to any remark I say specifically because I am younger. It was funny, but when speaking of this with Master Khan last evening he told me I should have listed I was 40, or no age at all. I think he is right.

Hmm...I take it you did read the forum rules that you agreed to upon joining, right? However, to address this...had you listed no age at all, your account wouldn't have been approved. Had you listed 40, well, chances are, your posting probably would have given away the fact that you werent in fact 40.

But I also think I should express who I am, and I have done so. Not once on this board have I claimed to be superior to any other, you claim of egotism is true, but you have completely misread who I am, my intentions, and because of that, what I am trying to communicate. And I take responsibility for that.

Really? Well, I think that a number of folks here, could easily point to numerous posts of yours in which you do claim to be superior. Perhaps you should read what you're typing, before you hit submit.
 

Chris Parker

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First things first, Alex, these questions are still wanting answers... and, believe it or not, this is me throwing you a rope. What you do with it can go a long way to showing what your level of knowledge actually is.

What is your understanding of what a Ryu is?

What are the differences and what are the core tenets that "allow it to still be aligned as karate", according to you?

Kay, so if you can answer those, we might be able to get somewhere. In the meantime, though...

Any technique one creates, is based upon one's learning and experience gained from others.

Wow, that is such a meaningless truism I hardly know how to answer it... but I will say that you seem to have missed entirely the point that was being made.

This is the last part of the post I'm responding to, and this is why; you are putting words in my mouth, which I do not believe. I have never said experience is not important, it is moreso than even training and learning the techniques. Age does not equate to this. I did not say I was 'top dog' in any post. My respect for Master Leahy is as high now as it was when I last saw him 5 years ago. If you do not think I have the ability to recognize ability, or worth in the art of others, than I have no reason to speak with you. Your view of me is such that I cannot see, and you cannot make the blind see.

Hmm, words in your mouth you say? Let's find out...

"I have never said that experience is not important":

Zenjael said:
It is not time, or degree I respect. But ability, and nowhere near as much as one's philosophical insights into the art.
(Difference Between Hitting Too Hard, and Being Too Experienced; page 4, post 49)

Zenjael said:
It is strange how often people use duration of training as a reason of superiority, or reason to critique others as being incorrect. I don't think I've ever pulled as an argument, you should listen to me, because you have been training for less than I have (say 3 or 4 years). Over and over, I must repeat, I do not think duration of training means anything.

I think perhaps the greatest reason I discount age, and experience based on chronology, was when I met a 74 chinese master who while good, would not teach to a japanese or any white person.
(Mixed Martial Arts Sparring; page 2, post 25)

"I did not say I was "top dog" in any post":

No, not with that phrase, that was what I chose to show the attitude you have been displaying, however... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...en-Hitting-Too-Hard-and-Being-Too-Experienced All of it, really, but starting with your description of yourself as the most senior/experienced person there.

But that being said, what you see as blindness for me, I in turn am seeing in you.

Your words are of worth, and quality, but they are missapropriated because you do not understand who I am. That is fine, but it also means that considering you have a view of me, which isn't me, and are entrenched in a mindset of... telling me who I am, I have no reason to give you input anymore. It is apparent in your post you have decided that I know it all, consider myself the best, feel everyone should learn from me, and that experience is nonessential. You seem to be quite happy to conjure your own, and opt it as my epistemology.

The problem is, those aren't my views, and as I cannot seem to convince you of that, I am not going to waste effort attempting to do so. It has not seemed to occur to those on the board, that to go to other people and ask to learn from them, is to first humble oneself and admit one's own ignorance of what they know, and to admit you would like to learn from them. I don't learn so I can be the best, I learn so I can enjoy the art.

Look, the impression I've gotten of you is based on your posts, and I'm not alone in that impression.
 

Gnarlie

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Zenjael, you're a person who purports to be able to learn a martial art to 1st Dan in one year and in your words finds any longer 'absurd'.

You've been presented with matching advice and perceptions from many different martial artists independently, on a forum where some of the most diverse, talented and experienced martial artists on our planet contribute.

Yet somehow you seem to think almost everyone else is wrong and you are right - even in the cases where you have specifically asked for feedback. With that attitude, I would seriously question your ability to actually learn anything effectively, nevermind 1st Dan in a year. How can one learn when one is not prepared to listen and adjust?

If you're anything like your online personality in real life, your teachers must really have a hard time with you. There comes a point with know-all students where you just stop trying with them and let them do their thing, whether it's correct or not. Sad, because they never reach the same level of understanding as everyone else. As a teacher, you can never tell them that you've stopped trying either, because it just won't get through. Maybe that explains a lot.
 

Aiki Lee

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Deeper understanding of martial arts requires adequate time spent as well as adequate instruction from the beginning. You must have both and switching between styles at the rate Zenjael seems to have done makes it obvious that concepts and principles cannot be ingrained to the point where they are natural.
 

Gnarlie

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Deeper understanding of martial arts requires adequate time spent as well as adequate instruction from the beginning. You must have both and switching between styles at the rate Zenjael seems to have done makes it obvious that concepts and principles cannot be ingrained to the point where they are natural.

I think your point about principles is spot on. The concepts and principles that underly technique have taken (and are still taking) me a long time to realise, and are taking an even longer time to become ingrained. Until the principle becomes ingrained one is just waving limbs around in a series of techniques learned parrot fashion. I've had a few encounters with multi-discipline-dabblers in my time, and when you talk about common principles they get this weird sort of glassy look, like you're speaking Klingon.
 

Josh Oakley

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I would venture to say then that the black belt in that school is ritualized. That's fine, to each school's own philosophy.

Ok....

But with dedication, one should be able to learn the execution of the techniques in the system within a month, tops, if they were truly committed and devoted their time to it. It only takes, from what I was told, around 500 sequences of a technique for it to become muscle memory, and about 2000 for it to become instinctual response memory.

A couple of points here you might want to work on. First, knowing how to do the moves of a technique is not the same as having learned the technique. There is a lot more involved than that

Second, the number of repetions you were told is not entirely (or even remotely) accurate. I would avoid using what you were told as a statement of fact. You would do yourself and your students a major favor if you researched the topics of learning and neuroanatomy, muscle memory, and retention of information more thoroughly. Since you are in college, I am sure you are familiar with the concept of triangulation of research.

And since you are in college, you have access to scholarly libraries dealing with this very topic.

So that we don't memorize useless clutter, our brains have a technique where they effectively edit out repetitousnous. For example, if you touch your nose and foot at the same time, you feel them simultaneously. However, physically the nerves from your foot take longer to arrive, and as such we should feel a delay, even if minor. The reason we don't, is that the brain edits out that gap.

Not true. We do, in fact, memorize useless clutter. We also memorize valuable information, but we do indeed memorize useless clutter as well. And it has its chica structure. Pick up a book called "brain rules". It will give you a decent starting point for your research.

If one cannot learn, say, the first 100 basic techniques in a system in a month, I would advise them to work on their ability to absorb information and how they train. For most forms, and katas, I need to watch it twice and can emulate it in the style. A lot of people who cross-train in styles eventually find themself able to do this.

There is a vast difference between being able to emulate a style and actually knowing it.

Furthermore, being able to perform 100 techniques in a month's work of training wouldn't mean you have fully learned them, let alone understood them. Let's say you trained 16 hours a day for a month. We will assume it is a 30 day month. That would give you 4.8 hours of training time per technique. AT MOST, you would be able to perform the technique.

But retention is out the window. Even if you break that 4.8 hours up so that you revisit the technique throughout the month, retention is still out the window. Myelin just doesn't grow that fast.

Now you claim you train 6-8 hours a day. That gives you a maximum of 2.4 hours per technique. Let's say you break up that 2.4 hours per day into all 30 days.

That is 4.8 MINUTES per technique per day. Even then, that is assuming you devote 8 hours a day, for thirty days, with no breaks, no stopping to go to the bathroom, no food, no water, no warming up, no stretching, no socializing, no nothing.

And let's break it down further. During those 4.8 minutes, you would perform the technique and reset before reiterating, let's GENEROUSLY say that you can pull off 1 repetition in 2 seconds and reset in 1. If you only do solo training. That would give you 96 repetitions per technique per day, for a maximum of 288 repetitions per technique.

Now all those numbers are taking out a LOT OF FACTORS. but even with that insanely high amount of training, you would only be able to perform each technique, to the air, without any understanding of what you are doing.

That would be some MASSIVE CRAZY cardio though. If you didn't have a heart attack, you would be in MASSIVELY good shape. Well, kinda.

You would also have burned through a TON of calories and water.

Let's be real. You don't train like that.

If we add in a partner, let's assume 2 seconds for the technique and 1 seconds for reset and changeover. I am still being really generous here. You two would still have to be superhuman to pull this off 8 hours a day at that speed for 30 days.

Under these insanely high assumptions you are at 48 repetitions per technique per day, for a max of 1440 repetitions per technique. Not enough to meet the cutoff for even your incredibly low standards of creating an "instinctual response memory" (whatever THAT is...)


But let's be real again, you don't train that way either. Nor does your partner.

What I am trying to show you, without making fun of you, just using basic facts, is your argument is impossible. Even if this was how you actual trained, it wouldn't accomplish the goal you set out for. And even you can't train that hard because... Well.. nobody can. You wouldn't have the energy to study. Or teach. Or even really go to school. Your muscles wouldn't have much in the way of recovery time, and you would experience a degradation of performance to the point where you would likely injure yourself, and instead of learning good form, you would likely have developed some bad habits out of the process.




The master form in IKC Kenpo contains every move in the entire system. You learned the system, you've learned that style of kenpo. For the employer I work, to teach their curriculum, I had to learn it in a week. I hate the form, but because of it learned the kenpo system. Am I a master? No. Am I ranked in it? No, but I do still possess my third Dan. Have I incorporated every technique into how I fight? No, but few implement, fluidly, with complete control every technique they know how to do, in a fight.

Did you mean IKCA Kenpo?

I am going to hold my tongue for now on the rest of that and sincerely hope you read that a few times and see what issues people might have with that.

Once you learn the techniques, you have a lifetime to learn how to perfect them.

I think you may want to more fully examine what the word "learn" denotes.

Hopefully one has chosen a teacher who will be there to correct when necessary, but honestly, with proper explanation, once execute properly and physical limitations are overcome, there is no reason it should not be executed everytime thereafter correctly.

Other than that you're human, you mean. I really hope you don't hold your students to this standard.


The only thing I have stated to be an expert in is how to wield a knife.

Frankly, you would do well to avoid stating that.
 
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Zenjael

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[h=1]Kid, you're full of it. Yes, there are bad places in Northern Virginia. There are bad people in Northern Virginia. They'd eat you alive. Nothing I've seen from you suggests you'd even slow 'em down. And, by the way, the "bad underground" of Northern VA isn't all that bad compared to even Anacostia.[/h]

You are absolutely correct in this; this area is not as nice as it oft appears. However, that being said, it is also a wonderful area with a rich people. I have had the misfortune, coming from the middle class, to even find involvement in aspects of the underground, in the past.

It is easy to, and many are sucked in. One martial school I practiced in had the unfortunate involvement with MS13, which had used the school to learn fighting technique. At one point as many as 8 of the youths from the Burke area both held Dan rankings and were involved with gang activity at this school. There were many students there as well, and the master both a very good person, and gifted teacher. The problem was not in his teachings, but in being located in an area prone toward such problems such as gang activity, and by no means is it the worst out there, either.

There is a point where a teacher can only do so much to curb their students, when unaware of their activities, even if other students are aware. Integrity is something easy to example, but harder to teach when crime is prevalent in an area.

I happy to see another familiar with aspects of this area, but I hope you do not find that all there is here. We're a wonderful forest-folk, I feel.
 

jks9199

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The master form in IKC Kenpo contains every move in the entire system. You learned the system, you've learned that style of kenpo. For the employer I work, to teach their curriculum, I had to learn it in a week. I hate the form, but because of it learned the kenpo system. Am I a master? No. Am I ranked in it? No, but I do still possess my third Dan. Have I incorporated every technique into how I fight? No, but few implement, fluidly, with complete control every technique they know how to do, in a fight.

Let me see if I'm reading this right... You're teaching a style of kenpo based on ONE WEEK training ONE form? You have NO rank in kenpo... but are teaching it, based on your 3rd dan in some sort of TKD? Does that feel just a bit dishonest to you?

There are forms I've spent years working on and studying that I don't teach... I did just "learn" a form in a day. Meaning I learned the sequence and movements well enough to start working on it. I wouldn't teach it to anyone anytime soon.
 
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Zenjael

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Let me see if I'm reading this right... You're teaching a style of kenpo based on ONE WEEK training ONE form?

Unfortunately. I teach what I can, in the timeframe given. I stick to basics, mainly teaching front punch, back punch, front kick, and how to knee and use their elbows. Front-stance, back-stance, fighting-stance, and ready stance in a neutral position with arms placed near navel. I have them cross with fists, and then place. I expect them to someday pick the art up again someday else. I intend that they be prepared as best as possible for that, based on my own experiences learning as a child, and being bullied and experiencing beatings from my father. Basic self-defense is all I can off in addition to the form. It is difficult, especially as I've found retention to be based on how fun the program is perceived to be, and I am both a harsh, and kind instructor. I am very strict in numbers, but with the individual soft and understanding. I have found this to work best when working with adults, but to be terrible with children, so it has been an interesting experience in reviewing how to work with them in such difficult timeframes.

but are teaching it, based on your 3rd dan in some sort of TKD? Does that feel just a bit dishonest to you?

The organization began with teaching Tang Soo Do, but has opted to teach Kempo as the other of the two main people teaching the martial arts in Kaizen hails from that background. Originally, they taught Tang Soo Do before switching, but it frankly is irrelevant as I joined after they had switched.

Does that feel just a bit dishonest to you?

However, their form is being instructed to them by a 6th Dan, and through the 4th Dan owner of the organization to me. The individual teaching it also helped to create the form itself and respective style, so it is legitimate Kempo. However, living in Virginia I have not had the opportunity to attend the training session where refines the level, I have only had the time to learn it training under the owner and head master of Kaizen.

I teach what I know, and I focus on practical self-defense, especially for children. I instructed one student once who clearly had an abusive father, though there was not enough evidence publicly to pursue, as I did at his age, and I was happy to hear that in an altercation the 9 year old was able to get help when he was assaulted by the father. It is a private matter, but one never knows what the people they teach are going through, so I try to keep it simple, and able for everyone to do, even children. Age might be a deterrent to someone who wants to take advantage of you to the point of taking your life. I'd be crushed if I found any student of mine, be they 4 or 40, was killed because they were errantly taught.

The form itself is less a kata and more 55 sequences of self defenses. Think 55 one-steps, in a specific order, under 2 minutes.

There are forms I've spent years working on and studying that I don't teach... I did just "learn" a form in a day. Meaning I learned the sequence and movements well enough to start working on it. I wouldn't teach it to anyone anytime soon.

No one masters a form in a day, but one can learn a form in whatever amount of time is necessary to learn it. The question is if you execute it properly. You can read, and read, and read pages about martial arts- you may know the technique, that does not mean one can do it. Many enthusiasts know all their arts' techniques but not how to execute them.

I once learned 3 forms in one day from ITF Tae Kwon Do. It took me 3 years to understand them enough to completely explain them to my Master (how each move operated, and why it was done) the philosophy the form represented, and how to do it backwards and with my eyes closed. That is not even mastery, because I had not learned how to do it in sync with others, both forward and backward.
 

jks9199

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I once learned 3 forms in one day from ITF Tae Kwon Do. It took me 3 years to understand them enough to completely explain them to my Master (how each move operated, and why it was done) the philosophy the form represented, and how to do it backwards and with my eyes closed. That is not even mastery, because I had not learned how to do it in sync with others, both forward and backward.

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Years-Kata-Bill-Burgar/dp/0954446607
 

ballen0351

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So im confused. What training in kenpo do you have to be qualified to teach it. As i read it you studied 1 form for.a.week and now are able to teach it? Maybe im reading it wrong but that what it looks like.
 

frank raud

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So im confused. What training in kenpo do you have to be qualified to teach it. As i read it you studied 1 form for.a.week and now are able to teach it? Maybe im reading it wrong but that what it looks like.
But he quit teaching at another school because it was a Mcdojo.
 
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Zenjael

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So im confused. What training in kenpo do you have to be qualified to teach it. As i read it you studied 1 form for.a.week and now are able to teach it? Maybe im reading it wrong but that what it looks like.

The Japanese Kempo training I received was only for six months, and so I do not consider it long enough to say I have learned the system. However, I have been instructed in American Kempo through Kaizen adding onto the Japanese Kempo. Through Master Viran I was able to again practice Kempo and improve. I teach what I know and only that, I list Kempo as a I style mainly I have trained in.

To be frank, there is much in the system I am currently working on so that I may teach it better. The certificates I issue when testing others, for example, still state Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do for Kaizen. I have found it easier to teacher the master form using Tang Soo Do until I have better grasped all the Kempo techniques (They have a tendency to look more Shotokan-esque, than what I have been being shown). I should receive certification for Kempo by the end of this year.

But he quit teaching at another school because it was a Mcdojo.

Three schools, and turned down positions as well. You'd be amazed how many schools in this area try to scam you. I had hoped Maryland schools would be different, but I have been mistaken before, and on occasion still am. I am hoping this will change, and am working within the school for it.
 

shesulsa

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You just plain should not be training people and certainly not RANKING people in a system/style for which you hold no rank. Period.

Please, please tell me we are reading what you wrote incorrectly and that you are NOT ranking people in kempo or styles for which you hold no rank.
 

clfsean

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No... he's teaching what he "learned" in a week to people. He trying to base of existing experience like he did the multitude of TKD versions.

Much more than that I can't say politely so I'm shutting up now. Just confirms even more about him to me...
 

ballen0351

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Now im more confused. Your grading people in kenpo but giving them certificates from a totally different style? Why would you take a job teaching something you say yourself that you are not qualified to teach?
 

Bill Mattocks

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Now im more confused. Your grading people in kenpo but giving them certificates from a totally different style? Why would you take a job teaching something you say yourself that you are not qualified to teach?


[video=youtube_share;w9DQnT1Awig]http://youtu.be/w9DQnT1Awig[/video]
 
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