Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news

[puunui]

Postage is included however (postage for the certificate from Korea, the outbound application is generally done online now).

I don't like online for some reason. I like mailing the applications in.

 

[StagTown]

To say Kukkiwon issues Black Belts for children is incorrect.<<<<

well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.

 

[puunui]

And in my experience the people who think it has no credibility did not have the toughness to last in it, or try it in the first place (no jewels). But that's just me.

Personally, I think it is jeolousy. Sour grapes. It's easy to criticize something that you don't have (Kukkiwon certification) and don't understand (sparring with your arms at your sides). I used to fight against the changes that are facing Taekwondo, but now I just go with the flow. There are just too many wildly successful dojang out there, a lot of them run by seniors, friends, and juniors. They can laugh and joke all they want about Taekwondo's "demise", while the financially successful sabum laugh too, all the way to the bank, in their bentley.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Personally, I think it is jeolousy. Sour grapes. It's easy to criticize something that you don't have (Kukkiwon certification) and don't understand (sparring with your arms at your sides). I used to fight against the changes that are facing Taekwondo, but now I just go with the flow. There are just too many wildly successful dojang out there, a lot of them run by seniors, friends, and juniors. They can laugh and joke all they want about Taekwondo's "demise", while the financially successful sabum laugh too, all the way to the bank, in their bentley.

Thats a great philosophy, if all you care about is money. Some of us look beyond the dollars. If I was prepared to compromise my principles and lower my standards my company could double its profit over night. Problem is, I value credibility.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.

That couldnt happen where I train. Thats why I value my cert so dearly.

 

[puunui]

well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.

Your 27 year old son is not a child.

 

[StagTown]

Your 27 year old son is not a child.

but he passed the test as a child:wink2:

 

[puunui]

but he passed the test as a child:wink2:

And now he's an adult.

 

[andyjeffries]

well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.

But if he graded at 16 and was a 1st Dan, then hadn't trained for 15 years you'd have no problem with him being a full dan grade with no further training required?

Either way, it's a test he took a decade and a half ago.

It also depends on your point of view as to what a dan grade means. I used to believe in the mythical black belt where you suddenly knew everything and were capable of teaching others to be great martial artists. Then I became an adult. Then I graded again. And again (etc).

At the end of the day, 1st Dan is the beginner rung on the dan scale. Yes, it's a great achievement. Welcome to the club, etc. However, looking to newly qualified 1st Dans now I'm sure they're better than I was when I passed at 16 years old (I'm not naïve enough to look back with rose tinted glasses and think I was the greatest thing around, although I know I was training a LOT) but they are just 1st dans. I can see now how much farther they have to go (and by the same token by looking at my seniors I can see how much farther I have to go).

There is a reason that Article 8 of the Kukkiwon Promotion Regulations doesn't have a minimum age for 1st Poom and there's a reason that they have poom grades at all. That reason is that children can achieve the level of skill required for the lower dan/poom grades and that adults often over-inflate what they're worth...

Trust in our seniors. Not all the 9th Dans in the world are standards-lowering money-grabbers, some of them are just more advanced than we are and know things we'll know in the future...

 

[terryl965]

I don't have any problem with a 19 or 20 year old Kukkiwon 4th Dan. According to the Kukkiwon, 1st through 5th Dan are Masters, so we could have 15 year olds using that term. ATC's instructor is 24 or 25 and I think a Kukkiwon 5th Dan.

Yes I know ATC instructor and his family as well. Heck my on son Zachary is a thrid at 16 and can test at 19 for his 4th. But he has grown up inside a dojaang and like ATC instructor he is an exceptionto the rules. I do not promote my sons, I have other GM do that. Even with that being said I still do not know if I fully agree but like I said I completely understand. It is a double edge sword with me and I would imagine it is that way with alot of folks. I appreciate all the feedback and personal opinions of everybody but in the end it is about maturity some will have itand continue some will not and figure they know it all and stop training. Those that stay will help grow TKD those that stop will hinder it because those are the onespeople remember.

 

[MJS]

Admin Note

Folks,

We've already had a few reported posts in this thread. Lets no have anymore please. Discussions like this, are bound to ruffle some feathers, and while everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, lets keep them within the framework on the rules, ok?

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Here are the Kukkiwon promotion fees:

1st Poom/Dan: $70.00
2nd Poom/Dan: $90.00
3rd Poom/Dan: $120.00
4th Poom/Dan: $150.00
5th Dan: $300.00
6th Dan: $350.00
7th Dan: $450.00
8th Dan: Free
9th Dan: Free
10th Dan: Free

How much does your organization charge?

At some point we're going to charge a $50 flat fee regardless of the Dan grade. Of this $50, the cost of printing & shipping will be around $10 (probably a bit less if here in the U.S.), the rest will go to the IKSDA's favorite children's charity which has been through the Elk's Lodge. So far though, no one has been charged for IKSDA certification that is a current member.

Thank you for asking.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

well not directly, but you can have a poom changed to a dan at the appropriate age, my sons 27 and hasnt trained for 15 years! he could apply with cost to be registered as a full dan grade with no further training, personely I dont think thats right.

This is interesting to know. So basically, a Poom can be converted to a Dan at the appropriate age with no test beyond the initial Poom test. It sounds like it is simply an administrative change for an additional fee. So saying this 6 year old isn't a BB is really just semantics. He really is and if he's still in TKD (or even if he isn't) he can simply pay a fee and have the certification converted.

I sounds like this is simply another way for the KKW to make more money off of the same test with very little or no accountability.

 

[Twin Fist]

Personally, I think it is jeolousy..

see? this is just like the snotty chick in high school saying "they hate me cuz i am pretty"

no, they hate her cuz she is a snot......



TKD is becomming a joke, why?

the KKW and the WTF

all the 5 year old bb's, the 10K dollar promotions, the 2 year blackbelts, the totally MADE UP HISTORY that anyone can see through

hell, a good friend of mine has a korean master, and they were told "a gift to the master is highly reccomended, last year all the testers pitched in and got him tickets to visit korea"

thats on top of the testing fee

WTH???.......

the olympics? pffffft, it wasnt even televised, so yeah....wtf tkd yippie!!! its like archery!!!!


hell, even CURLING is televised......tkd? NOPE


i get that people who are invested in a certain system will feel a need to defend that system, but COME ON

 

[Twin Fist]

thats a great philosophy, if all you care about is money. Some of us look beyond the dollars. If i was prepared to compromise my principles and lower my standards my company could double its profit over night. Problem is, i value credibility.

qft

 

[Kong Soo Do]

At 80 million members in 197 nations, Olympic event, it's doing pretty good so far.

As a business it seems to be doing very well. As a martial art to be taken seriously, well, many people seem to be saying differently. There is a valid reason TKD is often equated to 'kiddy karate'. Of those 80 million members, how many are children? How many are still participating in TKD? These are valid questions.

I'd much rather be associated with it that some wacky backyard so called SD program.

Do you have any examples of these wacky backyard SD programs? Just curious why someone teaching from their home would be considered wacky. I seem to remember many Masters teaching from their home. I'm unaware of any requirement to have a commercial school to be considered valid.

And in my experience the people who think it has no credibility did not have the toughness to last in it, or try it in the first place (no jewels). But that's just me.

If a 6 year old can pass the test...how tough can it be? Seriously.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20110607/SPORTS/706079908/1121/SPORTS21

Cole Becker, 6, is believed to be the youngest American to ever receive a Kukkiwon black belt. Earning a taekwondo black belt is a significant achievement for people of any age. For Taigon Taekwondo students, it is a three-day process. The first day is a written examination, the second day a test of strength and physical stamina with a 3-mile run, push-ups and sit-ups; and on the third day the display of taekwondo forms and techniques, including sparring.

Cole Becker had to exhibit the same proficiency as adult students, with two exceptions. Children under 14 break half-inch boards with kicks and chops, while older students break bricks. Also, Cole's written test was actually an oral exam because he is still learning to read and write.

Cole scored very well on all his tests, including his written (oral) exam. One requirement was that he had to know Korean numbers 1 to 100 as well as many other Korean words.

The best thing about taekwondo, Cole Becker said, "is that I get to be in the same class as my brother." That would be 8-year-old Seth, also a black belt.

I don't agree with 6 or 8 year olds earning a first poom (I think 10 would be "early"), but hey, it's not my decision and the Kukkiwon obviously doesn't mind...

Begin the ranting now...

All of you who criticize KKW/WTF TKD schools for three and four year old black belts, take note of this: the youngest in the US is six, not three or four.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As a business it seems to be doing very well. As a martial art to be taken seriously, well, many people seem to be saying differently. There is a valid reason TKD is often equated to 'kiddy karate'. Of those 80 million members, how many are children? How many are still participating in TKD? These are valid questions.

My only thing with putting BB's on little kids is that, in the US at least, the perception of a black belt equates to super-fighter in many people's minds. The kiddies are supposed to get a pum belt (black/red).

But that aside, I simply accept the fact that the MA demographic has shifted in the US from what it was twenty years ago. I'd rather see six year olds excited about their first pum than an X-box live achievement.

Do you have any examples of these wacky backyard SD programs? Just curious why someone teaching from their home would be considered wacky. I seem to remember many Masters teaching from their home. I'm unaware of any requirement to have a commercial school to be considered valid.

Hey, thats me!! I still run classes in the garage and back yard and I'm pretty whacky!

If a 6 year old can pass the test...how tough can it be? Seriously.

Probably as tough as it is for anyone else. You have eight taegeuk pumse to remember and correctly perform, all of the same strikes and blocks and sparring against opponents in their own age and weight category. The biggest difference that I see in childrens tests is with breaking; I frequently see thinner and/or fewer boards used.

Is it the equivalent to an adult test? Probably not. But the rank is not equivalent either. Anyway, I have more respect for a gung ho child than I do for an adult who mails it in, something that I have seen many times over the years.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Is it the equivalent to an adult test? Probably not. But the rank is not equivalent either.

Daniel

Probably as tough as it is for anyone else. You have eight taegeuk pumse to remember and correctly perform, all of the same strikes and blocks and sparring against opponents in their own age and weight category. The biggest difference that I see in childrens tests is with breaking; I frequently see thinner and/or fewer boards used.

But Daniel, let's take a close look at this for a moment please. Is it equivalent to an adult test? According to the article, the only difference was the written test was given orally since he can't write yet. And I think it said the boards were a little thinner. But everything else was the same. So it wasn't really that far removed from an adult test.

Now the cert. This boy can have his cert converted over to an 'adult' BB with no additional training and an additional fee. So this test WAS his BB test. Let's all be honest about this for a moment. For a few bucks more at age 15 or so the cert may be revised, but he's already done what he was required to do. This Poom to Dan conversion is another avenue of making money off the same test. That is all it is so let's be honest about it in this discussion.

The kid took a BB test, he passed a BB test, he wears a BB....he's now a KKW TKD BB the same as any KKW TKD BB on this board. He's now in your ranks. The fact that he (or his dad) will have to pay more bucks in ten years to get it 'converted' is a money making tactic on behalf of the KKW.

 

[andyjeffries]

This Poom to Dan conversion is another avenue of making money off the same test. That is all it is so let's be honest about it in this discussion. The fact that he (or his dad) will have to pay more bucks in ten years to get it 'converted' is a money making tactic on behalf of the KKW.

You're serious?

You're considering the token amount for converting a poom->dan certificate (likely to be the same as a re-issue fee $10) a "money making tactic". They aren't saying it's required, then aren't enforcing it. They're saying "if you like, you can change the certificate when you turn 15/16, just send us a minimal amount to cover the new paper, our time in printing/sending it and postage from Korea". If you're happy keeping a poom certificate until your next promotion, don't bother...

Besides, come on, we're talking about an optional $10 charge - this is hardly the Kukkiwon strongarming people to make huge sums from converting poom to dan.

If people choose not to pay to change the certificate, they don't need to. Just apply for the next higher dan on their next promotion.