You might disagree but I think this is great news

Twin Fist

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So why is it not on TV anymore (here in the US, I don't know if it is eles ware) or the Olympics?


PKA went off the air cuz it sucked, and people wouldnt watch it, it started looking like boxing, but the boxers wernt any good

korean kickboxing is boring, dull, and they fall over every 15 seconds, no one wants to watch that
 

ATC

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Well, I used to have to fight quite often when I was growing up in the 80's. Granted that was before people were shooting eachother for no reason. Anyway, I didn't feel it was my place to call him a liar, because I don't know what he has or has not seen.
Yeah, in the 70's and 80's I fought a lot. But now days there is not that much fighting at all. Which is a good thing, but I doubt he has seen any of todays and even in the 80's, tops fighters fighting outside the ring. They would not risk it.
 

ATC

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ESPN still runs K-1 shows.

Don't remember ever seeing Olympic TKD on TV.
ESPN2 and ESPNC run reruns of K - 1. Nothing new.

Nope. No WTF matches at all on US TV. Now in Europe and Asia yes.
 

granfire

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ESPN2 and ESPNC run reruns of K - 1. Nothing new.

Nope. No WTF matches at all on US TV. Now in Europe and Asia yes.

You have better chances of seeing the latest match of 'Magic, the Gathering' on ESPN

(besides, Olympic coverage sux anyhow.)
 

Marginal

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ESPN2 and ESPNC run reruns of K - 1. Nothing new.
Must still have some level of interest then. Running kickboxing down when it actually gets more attention doesn't make TKD look better.
 

ATC

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Must still have some level of interest then. Running kickboxing down when it actually gets more attention doesn't make TKD look better.
Not sure of what you are stating. I just simply agreed that old K-1 matches are sometimes shown on the ESPN2 and ESPNC channles. What does "running kickboxing down" mean?
 

K-man

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It's probably my Irish ancestry, but for the life of me I can't see what all the fuss is about. I reckon Olympic style TKD is right up there with 'Catching the Javelin' and 'Heading the Shot'. Some things should be in the Olympics and some things shouldn't. It is reasonable apparent what the majority this forum think! :asian:
 

d1jinx

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just curious why this thread gets to ramble on so long and not get shut down like the last thread that had a "debate"....

Ooopps, there goes the new guys commenting.... guess its shut down now.
 

d1jinx

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oh... wait.... it's like beetlejuice right....

Kukkiwon, Kukkiwon, Kukkiwon.
 

dancingalone

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Boxing is the most universal sport other than running. Boxing is something that is done all over the world. Every kid across the world has imitated a box of choice and has used his fist at some point to fight the school bully or some other kid for some reason. So this sport does not even have to be taught to be a part of any countries culture. Everyone boxes, or understands what they see when two people box.

Using that logic, walking or running is the most widespread sport. My definition of a sport is an organized activity with a rule set, judges, and competitors and coaches. Boxing fits that definition but it would be very incorrect to say that many people participate in the sport of boxing at all.
 

Gorilla

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I'm certainly not and the thought makes me laugh to be honest.
Trust me, no one in MMA or full contact karate both of which are my styles is in the slightest bit bothered by jealousy. I will say though I admire proper TKD people, good fighting skills, good kick and punches.
Perhaps the Olympic 'stars' could fight...if they revert to TKD instead of dancing. I know a fair few MMA fighters whose standup style is TKD and it's not the dancing type either.
I for one would campaign ferociously to keep my martial arts OUT of the Olympics, my other sport, eventing is in already and we have few problems with it so I'm happy.

I would 'suck' at your sport too, thats because I'm used to full contact (no headguards or body protectors) punching, kicking, sweeps and take downs, with shin blocking and use of elbows and knees. Would your guys 'suck' at my sport too do you think?
As for your challenge, I'll up the ante, any Olympic style TKDer in the UK (or a rich American lol) contact me and I will set up a match for them, same sex, same weight on our next show before Christmas, it's a show for Help For Heroes so it will do some good too. I will match an Olympic type TKDer with either a karate kumite fighter, a MT fighter or an MMAer standing, TKD competitors choice. We have videoing so all can see it.



What you are trying to do is compare on art to the other. They are apples and oranges. Nobody in sport TKD would ever suggest the the style that they use in the sport would work in another sport. If they trained in Karate, Muy Tai or MMA for the length of time need to become proficient(in that particular sport) they would do just fine. I live in Las Vegas the land of MMA we have had K1 fighter and A UFC fighter both of some fame that cross-train with us from time to time. Neither of them would spar with our guys using sport tkd rules because it is not their sport. They both have respect for TKD. The come for the cardio training and to learn the Back Kick, Axe Kick and the Spin Hook. Why do we always have to play the my art can beat up your art game. It is lame!!! A true world class athlete understands the amount of effort it takes to be the best in the world at anything!!! They may not like the sport for various reasons but they can respect the skill needed to reach a world class level.
 

dancingalone

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Sport TKD is irrelevant as a sport worldwide is what I meant obviously. If I take the time and effort to comment on a thread, it's a topic on which I have some interest. In my case, I dislike the current product. I think it's devoid of martial meaning and brings little credit to TKD as a credible fighting system. I would love to see sport TKD evolve to be something more.

At least you state that this is your opinion.


Silly comment, ATC. This is not a research project or medical experiment. Just about everything posted here is an opinion. Including yours and mine.

Most students that take traditional TKD in our dojang respect the sport after trying it. They all state that it looks easier than it is. They are amaze at how fast the guys are that they go up against. We have quite a few adult black belts that have never done the sport side and have learned TKD else ware. Once they try it they all have a new found respect. This is why I don't get all the disrespect for the sport I hear. This is why I know most doing all the negative talking have never done it. It is what it is.

Not sure what you are looking for. Plenty of people including myself have conceded that sport TKD requires hard work to excel in. We just find other facets about it lacking and in my case it's enough for me to throw out the baby with the bath water until fundamental changes are made.

The same can be said for all martial arts and their sport. Again this is an issue that the individual needs to get over. I could careless if anyone takes TKD seriously or not. Just as long as they don't put their hands on me we will never have to find out how serious it is.

Well, I'd rather see TKD have a better reputation that it currently enjoys, and I do believe sport TKD could be a much better ambassador than it currently is. If you want the sport to stay small and unrespected, that's your deal.

Not sure what you are saying here. So is that a sport that you practice. The two don't translate the same. In TKD we all practice some sort of locks and pins as well. If I come to your class I am sure I can get a lock or pin technique. Now the question is how do you measure my locking and pin abilities? Is there a sport that you do that I can train what I learned to the point of being known as one of the best lockers and pinners? Not sure what you are comparing here.

You challenged people who don't like Olympic type sparring to try it out, saying they would be surprised at how tough it is. My remark was pretty clear. I know it's tough for someone who has never trained for the activity to step in and do well. It's the same situation for someone from a sport background to step into my class and do well. We focus on fighting application and we condition our fists and our legs and our torsos. We teach a full course of locks and pins with kyusho concepts included, all stemming from full kata bunkai study progressing to fully resistant training. I mention this just to show that different people train different things. Just as you believe novices would find Olympic sparring difficult to adapt to, I know fully well that a sport TKDist would find my class tough sledding at first until they successfully shifted to what I emphasize.

Anyways, all I am saying is TKD the sport is what it is, and I only hear other martial artis doing the complaining for some reason. I am 100% sure that I would hear the same if it were any other MA in the Olympics. This is why I say it is jealousy. If it werent TKD then it would something else. So I guess this thread and all the arguments are irrelevant.

I'm sorry if the "irelevant" adjective hurts your feelings. I used it because it's the correct word to express what I feel sport TKD is.

And let me be clear. I am a yondan in Okinawan Goju-ryu karate, yidan in tae kwon do, and shodan in aikido. I believe karate has already been compromised by the sporting aspects added by the Japanese, but fortunately not yet to the extent seen in sport TKD. I dearly hope to never see either karate or aikido in the Olympics as that would be a disaster for either art, rather than a boon.
 

ATC

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Sport TKD is irrelevant as a sport worldwide is what I meant obviously. If I take the time and effort to comment on a thread, it's a topic on which I have some interest. In my case, I dislike the current product. I think it's devoid of martial meaning and brings little credit to TKD as a credible fighting system. I would love to see sport TKD evolve to be something more.



Silly comment, ATC. This is not a research project or medical experiment. Just about everything posted here is an opinion. Including yours and mine.



Not sure what you are looking for. Plenty of people including myself have conceded that sport TKD requires hard work to excel in. We just find other facets about it lacking and in my case it's enough for me to throw out the baby with the bath water until fundamental changes are made.



Well, I'd rather see TKD have a better reputation that it currently enjoys, and I do believe sport TKD could be a much better ambassador than it currently is. If you want the sport to stay small and unrespected, that's your deal.



You challenged people who don't like Olympic type sparring to try it out, saying they would be surprised at how tough it is. My remark was pretty clear. I know it's tough for someone who has never trained for the activity to step in and do well. It's the same situation for someone from a sport background to step into my class and do well. We focus on fighting application and we condition our fists and our legs and our torsos. We teach a full course of locks and pins with kyusho concepts included, all stemming from full kata bunkai study progressing to fully resistant training. I mention this just to show that different people train different things. Just as you believe novices would find Olympic sparring difficult to adapt to, I know fully well that a sport TKDist would find my class tough sledding at first until they successfully shifted to what I emphasize.



I'm sorry if the "irelevant" adjective hurts your feelings. I used it because it's the correct word to express what I feel sport TKD is.

And let me be clear. I am a yondan in Okinawan Goju-ryu karate, yidan in tae kwon do, and shodan in aikido. I believe karate has already been compromised by the sporting aspects added by the Japanese, but fortunately not yet to the extent seen in sport TKD. I dearly hope to never see either karate or aikido in the Olympics as that would be a disaster for either art, rather than a boon.

If the sport bothers you so much then don't watch it, don't do it, and stop complaining about it. Something so irrelevant sure seems to take up so much of your time. It obviously is not irrelevant or it would not be talked about so much, nor be in the Olympics, nor would it even be considered a sport. Some body thinks it's relevant enough, as over 160 countries do it, and they just extended in the Olympics to 2016. So your silly argument that you are trying to make really holds no water. You obviously think it is relevant enough to warrant your time and efforts to convince someone that it is not. So I really can't take any of you points as serious when you make the statement that you did and then put some much time and effort into talking about something that you think is irrelevant. Most people just ignore the irrelevant.

Pick a better word next time because irrelevant does not fit.
 

terryl965

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My God can we ever get away from the sportside sucking. I mean can't each person just get the hell off of there high horse. I know for me the sport means my sons are doing something they like and it keep them in the Art. I mean come on how many here started off as a child in the arts? I bet if you did going to tournaments was one of the biggest joys you had. Why is it bad for some to love the sport, what does this do to you? I myself cannot stand watching Baseball it is boring as hell maybe because I did not enjoy it as a child.

What my personal goals are does not in anyway effect anybody else. I train because I can maybe not like years ago but still I enjoy it, my Master was a gentle man with a big stick when it came to perfection reminded me of my own father, you see in the Marines only perfection matters, there is no grey it was right or wrong and no mabes. This is the part of TKD that I hold close to my heart and everyone else should too, you see all of us whether we like it or not are in the same ship. So can we leave the soapbox at home and talk about what is important and that is training.
 

ATC

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Using that logic, walking or running is the most widespread sport. My definition of a sport is an organized activity with a rule set, judges, and competitors and coaches. Boxing fits that definition but it would be very incorrect to say that many people participate in the sport of boxing at all.
Wow! Boxing is in every country just as you put it. Everyone in every country knows what boxing is becasue at whatever level, most have done it, even if not in an actual ring.

Oh and Walking and Running are both sports, that are organized activities, with rules, coaches, judges and competitors. Ever heard of track and field.

I am done with this debate.
 
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mango.man

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You challenged people who don't like Olympic type sparring to try it out, saying they would be surprised at how tough it is. My remark was pretty clear. I know it's tough for someone who has never trained for the activity to step in and do well. It's the same situation for someone from a sport background to step into my class and do well. We focus on fighting application and we condition our fists and our legs and our torsos. We teach a full course of locks and pins with kyusho concepts included, all stemming from full kata bunkai study progressing to fully resistant training. I mention this just to show that different people train different things. Just as you believe novices would find Olympic sparring difficult to adapt to, I know fully well that a sport TKDist would find my class tough sledding at first until they successfully shifted to what I emphasize.

I think that MOST sport TKDist started off in "Traditiional" TKD before moving on and focusing on the sport aspects. Therefore I think that most would have an easier time transitioning back to "Traditional" than a "Traditional" only student would have transitioning to Sport.

And yes I put "Traditional" in quotes because really, how much "Tradition" is there in a roughly 54 year old activity?

Opps, is that a whole new can of worms I just opened? Well since this is my thread I guess I have that right.
 

Tez3

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[/b]

What you are trying to do is compare on art to the other. They are apples and oranges. Nobody in sport TKD would ever suggest the the style that they use in the sport would work in another sport. If they trained in Karate, Muy Tai or MMA for the length of time need to become proficient(in that particular sport) they would do just fine. I live in Las Vegas the land of MMA we have had K1 fighter and A UFC fighter both of some fame that cross-train with us from time to time. Neither of them would spar with our guys using sport tkd rules because it is not their sport. They both have respect for TKD. The come for the cardio training and to learn the Back Kick, Axe Kick and the Spin Hook. Why do we always have to play the my art can beat up your art game. It is lame!!! A true world class athlete understands the amount of effort it takes to be the best in the world at anything!!! They may not like the sport for various reasons but they can respect the skill needed to reach a world class level.


I'm not comparing sports at all, what I suggest is that the TKD competitor picks which stylist they want to go against and they fight TKD Olympic rules, so you are a bit wrong there aren't you. I know MMA fighters who can 'fight' to those rules and funnily enough I know a MT fighter that can too so there you go.

Right one last time for those of you who are wrapped up in your defensive bubble.
I am not attacking TKD I'm hacked off with the Olympic stuff. The officials robbed our competitors blind , the whole thing stank like week old fish and the dancing around makes non martial artists laugh. This in turn casts a shadow over other martial arts because these non martial artists think we all do the riverdance thing, well we must, they've seen it on the tele.
Bully for all those that live in Vegas, send us a postcard sometime but don't lecture us.
I would happily leave the whole thing alone but for the simple fact that the Olympic stuff and what went on at Beijing made all the media spotlight us. We got phone calls asking us to comment on what went on at the Olympics and could we explain the 'funny fighting' style from local papers. No amount of us explaining we don't do TKD gets through "but you have a martial arts club".
le advertised our club as we do periodically at about the same time as the Olympics and we got comments from soldiers that I really couldn't post here as they were derogatory, they'd watched the TKD thinking it was fighting and well, it wasn't.
OLympic TKD annoys me because it affects my club, I don't actually care what you do, enjoy any style you like but having the general population think thats what we do isn't on.

ATC, never in any fighting art i have done have 14 year olds been matched against 24 year old, it's just not on to match boys against men however 'equal' in rank they may be.

That's my beef against Olympic TKD, not TKD as such or any other thing anyone wants to do, when anything affects my club I'm not a happy bunny.
 

Twin Fist

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now, here is an idea, make it a 3 pronged event.

fighting-hands count, and if you fall over, you dont score
kata-traditional kata only
breaking-either creative or power

combined score wins the medal

that THAT I would watch
 

ATC

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I'm not comparing sports at all, what I suggest is that the TKD competitor picks which stylist they want to go against and they fight TKD Olympic rules, so you are a bit wrong there aren't you. I know MMA fighters who can 'fight' to those rules and funnily enough I know a MT fighter that can too so there you go.

Right one last time for those of you who are wrapped up in your defensive bubble.
I am not attacking TKD I'm hacked off with the Olympic stuff. The officials robbed our competitors blind , the whole thing stank like week old fish and the dancing around makes non martial artists laugh. This in turn casts a shadow over other martial arts because these non martial artists think we all do the riverdance thing, well we must, they've seen it on the tele.
Bully for all those that live in Vegas, send us a postcard sometime but don't lecture us.
I would happily leave the whole thing alone but for the simple fact that the Olympic stuff and what went on at Beijing made all the media spotlight us. We got phone calls asking us to comment on what went on at the Olympics and could we explain the 'funny fighting' style from local papers. No amount of us explaining we don't do TKD gets through "but you have a martial arts club".
le advertised our club as we do periodically at about the same time as the Olympics and we got comments from soldiers that I really couldn't post here as they were derogatory, they'd watched the TKD thinking it was fighting and well, it wasn't.
OLympic TKD annoys me because it affects my club, I don't actually care what you do, enjoy any style you like but having the general population think thats what we do isn't on.

ATC, never in any fighting art i have done have 14 year olds been matched against 24 year old, it's just not on to match boys against men however 'equal' in rank they may be.

That's my beef against Olympic TKD, not TKD as such or any other thing anyone wants to do, when anything affects my club I'm not a happy bunny.
Hi Tez3 hope that you realize that I did not direct anything personal towards you. Had to get that out of the way first.

As for you reason of not liking Olympic TKD, every sport had bad judging from time to time. We have all seen some boxer, MMA fighter and so on get robbed really bad when left up to the judges. It is just the nature of things.

As for 14 vs. 24+ it happens. It is your choice though. Jrs are 14-17 but they can compete as a Sr. if they want. Like I said Charlotte Craig fought as Sr. at 15 I think, and she made it to the Olympics at 17. It is not uncommon. My son is 10 and he competes against 14-15 year olds all the time. In our dojang we have on other 10 year olds that can compete with him so he has to fight teenagers. Funny seeing this 4 8 kids owning kids 5 or taller.

As for non MA people equating what they see on the TV to what you do, is also par for the course. Not much we as a whole can do but educate. I am sure when people see Karate point sparring they say the same thing. Only MMA gets respected becasue it is what it is. MMA is the rawest form of combat outside of real combat. So if you are not doing that then you are not doing anything most think.

Any traditional MA will be looked at as funny by most not just TKD if left to the sport or competitions of each said sport. Now there are some arts that do full contact that are enough for most to look like combat. K-1, Muay Tai and others in a similar vein, but even those have lost viewer ship.

There is really nothing out there anymore that shows the grace and beauty of each arts core anymore. Only TKD still has something that showcases its arts foundation. Could it be better? Of course it could. Will it better? I can only hope so. Boxing is vastly different than when it was started. MMA is not the same as the first UFC matches when it first started. Everything takes time to evolve and you have to go through the pains of that growth and evolution. Nothing just starts or begins at the evolved stated, nothing.

I understand you pains but help make it better some how. Help educate the public as to what it is that are watching.

I for one like watching each arts sport at its pure form. It all there was is MMA to watch would be boring to me. MMA is great but I do like seeing beautiful properly thrown kick that have to be set up to land also. I like seeing a well timed and executed reverse punch also. A good foot stomp then back fist is beautiful to watch as well. None of this will be seen in you classic MMA match. It just can't be done as the fear of going to the ground won't allow any of this.

To be honest, the sport TKD is what is keeping all traditional arts alive. Or will all just need to be in an MMA and wrestling gym, maybe that what it will be soon, MMA only.
 
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