WSL book

geezer

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My personal "live" training dao is a steel-aluminum mixed alloy that allows for a sturdy blade that doesn't bend or shard, but it's a lot better than springsteel or straight up aluminum (which won't survive much blade-on-blade sparring contact because it's too malleable, even wood is safer imho).

The two on the cover of Judkins are legitimate 19th century hudiedao used during the Opium Wars and the Red Turban Revolt, and other fun times.

I'll have to dig into the metallurgy to see what these might have been made of, but it probably wasn't steel. Probably mostly iron. China is the oldest civilization to cast it.
Honestly, Oily, I believe you need to re-examine your basic knowledge of knife and sword-smithing. Perhaps Kirk can weigh in here?

First of all I doubt that you have any kind of dao or other blade made of an aluminum-steel alloy. The melting points and other properties of those two metals are so different that they are never alloyed together in blades!

Secondly, The long, slender 19th Century hu die dao pictured would certainly have been made of steel. Cast iron was not used for blades and would have been unsuitable compared with steel or layered iron and steel laminates. So steel was used for dao going all the way back to the Warring States period some four centuries BCE.
 
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wckf92

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Dang...I miss the good ol days of this forum when OP's were allowed to delete their threads if they got de-railed or other shenanigans were steering it off course haha. I would have deleted this a LONG time ago.
 

Oily Dragon

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I'm going to make an effort to chime in as a neutral 3rd party here. I have only a small amount of WC background and no particular concerns with anyone's lineage, but I do have a copy of Judkin's book and pretty good reading comprehension.





Despite your contrasting claims about the "obvious" meaning of jlq's original post, it's actually quite ambiguous. The subject in the sentence "This book is actually not actually a serious scholarly work..." could easily be read as referring either to Judkins book or to "Foshan Martial Arts Culture". A little bit of initial editing could have clarified that. However, jlq has repeatedly clarified his intent in subsequent posts. I've reviewed all of his posts on the subject and can't find any other comment he has made which could be interpreted as suggesting that Judkin's book is not scholarly. To the contrary, I've found comments by him stating that Judkin is an excellent scholar.

Part of maintaining this forum as a place for friendly martial arts discussion involves giving each other the benefit of the doubt and not attempting to mind read and assume someone else's intent without evidence. You have a perfect right to believe that jlq is for some reason lying about the intent behind his original ambiguous paragraph. However making that accusation publicly without evidence is neither helpful to the discussion nor within the bounds of civility.

What might be productive is engaging with his claim as clarified - that "Foshan Martial Arts Culture" is one of Judkin's primary sources and is not itself a scholarly work.



Okay, so here we have an objectively testable claim, i.e. in the section of Judkin's book which focuses on the development of Wing Chun in mainland China he draws primarily from two sources: Leung's Roots and Branches and Ma's Foshan Martial Arts Culture.

To clarify this claim, I should point out that Judkin's book contains five chapters and an epilogue. The first three chapters are primarily concerned with the general history of the Guangdong province from 1800 - 1949, with an emphasis on martial culture. There are some passing mentions of Wing Chun, but not a lot of specific focus on the art. That is reserved for chapter 4, which is about the development of Wing Chun in mainland China. Chapter 5 is focused on Ip Man, but is mostly about his time spent in Hong Kong. The epilogue briefly covers the spread of Wing Chun as a worldwide art.

My interpretation of jlq's claim is that at least the majority of Judkin's citations for chapter 4 are from Leung's Roots and Branches and Ma's Foshan Martial Arts Culture. I'm prepared to go ahead and count up those citations right now. However, if anyone else has a reasonable interpretation of what jlq might be stating or ideas of what I should check with regard to those citations, go ahead and let me know. Otherwise I'll report back with my findings once I've finished my lunch and had a chance to count up the citations.
That about sums it up, however keep in mind what a citation is versus a source.

A citation can be "Joe said this" in something. In the case of Judkins, practically every specific mention of Leung Ting or Ma Zineng is basically circumstantial stuff (like Ma Zineng quoting other sources). The chapter notes are references to specific things. They are not the totality of source material for any chapter.

Why aren't we talking about Robert Chen's works influence on Judkins? It weighs in heavily here, like so many other works.

Also ask yourself why a book co-authored by an Ip Man lineage disciple would be heavily based on Leung Ting? That dude has been a pariah in Ip Man schools for decades.

Does not compute, and talk about stuff I don't want to get mired in. Already feel dirty. Maybe I really am Greasy Dragon like Hunschuld said before Jlq showed up to back him up.
 
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Oily Dragon

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From what I remember, Judkins didnt really write anything all that profound about Wong Shun Leung in his book. Everything that Judkins included on WSL in The Creation of Wing Chun was already well-known public knowledge for decades prior to the books 2015 release.
It's only about 9 pages and quite frankly the book is absolutely full of history on Gong Sao types. He just happens to be a notable one.

If you actually mapped out the family trees you could not fit them on one page.

But a funny thing happens when historians start piecing things together. People get upset especially those behind the inner door. This is a kung fu trusim, partner.
 

geezer

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Dang...I miss the good ol days of this forum when OP's were allowed to delete their threads if they got de-railed or other shenanigans were steering it off course haha. I would have deleted this a LONG time ago.
Dunno... I've been on here since 2007 and a fair amount of topic "drift" was always tolerated. "Shenanigans" not so much.

In any case, we are better moderated than most forums ....without being put in a straight jacket ....which I have been, literally, by the way. You know the really heavy canvas ones with closed-off sleeves ending in leather straps that cross your chest and buckle behind your back.
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Oily Dragon

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Honestly, Oily, I believe you need to re-examine your basic knowledge of knife and sword-smithing. Perhaps Kirk can weigh in here?

First of all I doubt that you have any kind of dao or other blade made of an aluminum-steel alloy. The melting points and other properties of those two metals are so different that they are never alloyed together in blades!

Secondly, The long, slender 19th Century hu die dao pictured would certainly have been made of steel. Cast iron was not used for blades and would have been unsuitable compared with steel or layered iron and steel laminates. So steel was used for dao going all the way back to the Warring States period some four centuries BCE.
Do you think it's full aluminum? It's a relatively sturdy practice blade I bought off WLE.
 

Oily Dragon

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Dang...I miss the good ol days of this forum when OP's were allowed to delete their threads if they got de-railed or other shenanigans were steering it off course haha. I would have deleted this a LONG time ago.
It's all my fault, I referenced an academic work about Wing Chun in some threads about Wing Chun, and some people went buck wild, myself included.

I'm sorry.
 

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Honestly, Oily, I believe you need to re-examine your basic knowledge of knife and sword-smithing. Perhaps Kirk can weigh in here?

First of all I doubt that you have any kind of dao or other blade made of an aluminum-steel alloy. The melting points and other properties of those two metals are so different that they are never alloyed together in blades!

Secondly, The long, slender 19th Century hu die dao pictured would certainly have been made of steel. Cast iron was not used for blades and would have been unsuitable compared with steel or layered iron and steel laminates. So steel was used for dao going all the way back to the Warring States period some four centuries BCE.
In relatively recent years, some success has been reached with alloying steel and aluminum. It apparently creates a significantly lighter steel that is comparable in strength to titanium alloys, or something (I confess I dont recall specifically) and I believe has similar resistance to corrosion as stainless steel. Apparently this has been a challenge, but success is being realized.

I havent read anything about it being used in blades. It seems that at this point perhaps its uses are potentially structural. Ive seen no information on its ability to be tempered and take and hold an edge, which can mean different things for a scalpel vs. a sword, etc. at any rate, I agree, I am skeptical that a dao exists that is made from this material, at least as a live blade and not as a practice trainer.

Also, yes, iron would be an unlikely material for a blade. It cannot be tempered and does not take an edge like the proper selection of steel does. So any real and/or historic weaponry of this type would be a steel blade.
 

geezer

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In God's name, Why? you ask.

No, not involved in kinky bondage.
No, not committed to an asylum.
Worse.
Volunteer extra in a 1980s performance art piece. :oops:
 

geezer

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Do you think it's full aluminum? It's a relatively sturdy practice blade I bought off WLE.
Most likely spring steel? That's what most of the modern wushu demo stuff is made of ...or stainless? Generally, a better material for swords intended for combat use is high carbon steel. Cast aluminum is only usable for decorative wall hangars and short practice blades like the bart cham do pictured on the WSL book, or decorative spear and halberd heads like on a kwan do. At least that would be my, non-expert understanding.
 

geezer

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It's all my fault, I referenced an academic work about Wing Chun in some threads about Wing Chun, and some people went buck wild, myself included.

I'm sorry.
Don't be sorry. These kinds of discussions are way better than not having anybody post for weeks at a time. IMO It's all good as long as nobody gets too angry and carried away.
 

geezer

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In relatively recent years, some success has been reached with alloying steel and aluminum. It apparently creates a significantly lighter steel that is comparable in strength to titanium alloys, or something (I confess I dont recall specifically) and I believe has similar resistance to corrosion as stainless steel. Apparently this has been a challenge, but success is being realized.
You know, I think I recall reading something about that. My shallow knowledge of metal work dates back to the 80s and early 90s. Pretty dated!
 

Flying Crane

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You know, I think I recall reading something about that. My shallow knowledge of metal work dates back to the 80s and early 90s. Pretty dated!
Honestly, I only became aware of it from this thread, I did a Google search.
 

Flying Crane

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Most likely spring steel? That's what most of the modern wushu demo stuff is made of ...or stainless? Generally, a better material for swords intended for combat use is high carbon steel. Cast aluminum is only usable for decorative wall hangars and short practice blades like the bart cham do pictured on the WSL book, or decorative spear and halberd heads like on a kwan do. At least that would be my, non-expert understanding.
Actually, spring steel can mean many things, and can make for a very good sword. Some flexibility is important to avoid brittleness, and is more important in longer weapons like swords. I believe much of what makes it springy is in how it is tempered, and is a type of high carbon steel that can take and hold a good edge. 5160 spring steel is used to make flat leaf springs for truck suspensions, and makes for an excellent sword or big knife. It takes a good edge and is very tough.

The modern wushu blades are typically either a very thin spring steel, unsharpened, or is some other metal that is inappropriate for a real blade, cannot be tempered, does not take or hold an edge. I dont know what metal that is.

Stainless is usually avoided for big blades like swords because the nickel alloyed in the steel to resist rust can make it brittle. Great for scalpels that need to be free of rust, but not to be trusted on long blade that undergo higher stress. But there are different types of stainless steels and from what I understand some kinds can be used to make a good sword.
 

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My personal "live" training dao is a steel-aluminum mixed alloy that allows for a sturdy blade that doesn't bend or shard, but it's a lot better than springsteel or straight up aluminum (which won't survive much blade-on-blade sparring contact because it's too malleable, even wood is safer imho).
That seems unlikely. Aluminum and steel do not mix well. The alloy is VERY brittle. Not something you want in a blade. It's edge characteristics will be laughable (not an issue for blunt training weapons) and it will dent and break easily. A properly tempered and annealed high carbon steel blade would be much better.
There IS a method for creating steel/aluminum alloys, and there are applications for it's use in things like auto manufacturing. But as far as blades go, it's utter crap.
 

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Most likely spring steel?
That's a common but mostly meaningless term.
That's what most of the modern wushu demo stuff is made of ...or stainless?
I despise stainless. Not because it's no good - it can be very good - but because it is SUCH a pain to work with. Heat treating is a nightmare, compared to a good high carbon steel or even a pattern welded steel.
Generally, a better material for swords intended for combat use is high carbon steel.
Absolutely. Or a pattern welded steel.
Titanium can be excellent as well, in specialized cases. I have several. It takes about 20 years to get one sharp. But they're the only decent blades that don't corrode when I am diving.
Cast aluminum is only usable for decorative wall hangars
Yup. Decorative only.
 

Oily Dragon

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Most likely spring steel? That's what most of the modern wushu demo stuff is made of ...or stainless? Generally, a better material for swords intended for combat use is high carbon steel. Cast aluminum is only usable for decorative wall hangars and short practice blades like the bart cham do pictured on the WSL book, or decorative spear and halberd heads like on a kwan do. At least that would be my, non-expert understanding.
Definitely not spring steel. This is very well crafted weapon. The edge is full from (at this point) 10 years of practice, but still can be sharpened. Not that I would ever dare, I've already put holes in many places with it that were not on my body.

Maybe I can find the old listing on an archive somewhere, these were high quality practice blades from my early Hung Kuen years.
 

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Definitely not spring steel.
How do you know?
This is very well crafted weapon.
That makes it more likely that it is, in fact, something that would fall into the broad category of spring steel. That includes pretty much any low-manganese, medium- or high-carbon content steels. Which is pretty much all the best blade steels.
 

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It's only about 9 pages and quite frankly the book is absolutely full of history on Gong Sao types. He just happens to be a notable one.

If you actually mapped out the family trees you could not fit them on one page.

But a funny thing happens when historians start piecing things together. People get upset especially those behind the inner door. This is a kung fu trusim, partner.
Partner? You made me laugh with that one.:D

I have to be honest, I don't have too much interest in the assumptions made on forums about what is or isn't considered a "kung fu truism". Likewise, the narrative of whether some people may or may not be upset about what is written in a book is tangential to my responses or participation in this thread. I'm not going to get mixed-up into any of that drama, or g籀ng sih fi ( 雓舫 ).

I was simply responding to your comments about wanting to see what jlq had to say about what Judkins wrote about Wong Shun Leung; and also your desire to stay on the subject of the thread and get back to Wong Shun Leung.

Now that we've cleared the air again, let's see what jlq has to say about what Judkins wrote about Gong Sau Wong, the subject of this thread.

I'd like to get back to Gong Sao Wong now, since he's a far more interesting character, and better looking.

Just thought I could chime-in, offer my perspective and contribute to the discussion. So to reiterate, I have read the book and I have also spoken with Ben; and in all honesty there's just not that much revealing about Wong Shun Leung in his book that hasn't already been previously available. IMO, the frequency of which WSL is referenced in the book (pages 212, 237, 239, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 274) is irrelevant because it does not add to the uniqueness of the information being shared.

None of that is meant as a critique to you or Judkins' research, it's just an honest observation based on my review. You and I can still be online friends, promise. ;)
 

Oily Dragon

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How do you know?

That makes it more likely that it is, in fact, something that would fall into the broad category of spring steel. That includes pretty much any low-manganese, medium- or high-carbon content steels. Which is pretty much all the best blade steels.
I think you're thinking of "sprung steel" spring steel.

In kung Fu springsteel is slang for crappy fake blades. This is is an old kung Fu topic. Wushu springsteel is the kind that flaps around like tinfoil and used for performance.

Here's a good old thread on it, Gene Ching himself weighed in.


Mine is basically a blue collar version of this one (not spring steel in the modern Wushu sense), and can kill a man pretty easy, especially when sharpened. Which I avoid for obvious reasons.

As stiff and we'll balanced as the blade is, its got the slightest flexibility, which I always assumed was some metallurgic additive other than steel. But I could hit a brick wall with this and it would be fine.

 
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