Tan Sau?

KPM

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Just another informal survey here. Does anyone know which lineages other than Wong Shun Leung lineage teach the idea that Tan Sau is only a shape for training the elbow and has no practical application on its own? I have only seen that from WSL lineage people and would like to know who else teaches this. Thanks!
 

Danny T

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I don't know of any but then I don't spend much time or effort in judging how or why others do what they do. For me it is interesting to look at things from different perspectives but not to judge right or wrong. I feel it is more important to understand 'why' it is done and then practice it. If after understanding why, playing with it, and pressure testing it I feel it is something that is applicable for me then I use it. If I feel it isn't applicable for me I put it aside and keep moving.
Others do what they do for their reasons. What is most important is can the individual use it in a reasonable way that advances their skills in a multitude of situations. In the end there is no right or wrong, there is just the consequences.
It is interesting in how many different perspectives there are of the body, how it moves, and why it is used in so many different manners.
 

Vajramusti

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Just another informal survey here. Does anyone know which lineages other than Wong Shun Leung lineage teach the idea that Tan Sau is only a shape for training the elbow and has no practical application on its own? I have only seen that from WSL lineage people and would like to know who else teaches this. Thanks!
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A survey is a rather sloppy way to ascertain some forms of "truth". ...specially where a skill is involved.
I don't know the CONTEXT in which WSL supposedly said that.
 

geezer

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To follow up on Joy's remarks, I'd also like to know the context of that assertion. And do all WSL people hold to that? Philip Bayer? David Peterson? Others? ....It seems like I've seen pictures of WSL demonstrating tan-da applications.

Here's one useful application for tan-sau (along with a front kick):

11650129-waiter-with-tray-of-food-in-hand-Stock-Vector-catering.jpg
 
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Danny T

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I don't know the CONTEXT in which WSL supposedly said that.
^^^^ this!!
How often have you (anyone) done a drill or practiced a move to a particular position or even combinations of moves knowing that the manner you are doing them at that moment is not how you would apply them? There are many drills used within SNT phase of training and practice that has absolutely nothing to do with actually applying the moves/positions. They are very important for the student to understand how structures can hold pressure, how the elbow is used and is supported by the hip structure but is not how it will be applied against a real attack. If a student is unaware and I believe that happen often, the student will not have a real understanding of the drill and what it is for. There are many drills we use that I must constantly remind students that it is a drill to develop a particular response. Take the basic pak sau drill used in several wc schools for example; first is the pak utilized in these non moving the base drills in relation to the body the same as pak shown in and practiced in SNT form? No it isn't. The drill isn't how one is going to fight but it teaches & uses many very important principles that are used in application. The context of which the drill is use opposed to how one applies the drill action may well be different in reality.


To follow up on Joy's remarks, I'd also like to know the context of that assertion. And do all WSL people hold to that? Philip Bayer? David Peterson? Others? ....It seems like I've seen pictures of WSL demonstrating tan-da applications.

Here's one useful application for tan-sau (along with a front kick):

11650129-waiter-with-tray-of-food-in-hand-Stock-Vector-catering.jpg
Funny.
LOL..., Wouldn't this be more of a Tok Sao application than a Tan being the pressure is on the palm of the hand and not on the thumb side of the forearm.
 
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KPM

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A survey is a rather sloppy way to ascertain some forms of "truth". ...specially where a skill is involved.
I don't know the CONTEXT in which WSL supposedly said that.

It's a simple survey. Nothing "sloppy" about it. Simply this....has anyone heard of other lineages other than WSL lineage say this? I'm not asking if its valid. I'm not asking if WSL truly said this. I'm just wondering if others think this way or not. So far the results of the survey seems to be 3 votes for "no, never heard this from any lineages other than WSL."
 
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KPM

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guy b.? wckf92? Any input??
 

wckf92

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Does anyone know which lineages other than Wong Shun Leung lineage teach the idea that Tan Sau is only a shape for training the elbow and has no practical application on its own?

Sorry, been busy with travel, and typing this from my phone.

If I recall, this topic was quite a spirited debate over on a different forum! :D

IMHO, yes one could say that the Tan elbow is central to the training. In that regard, I'd bet most lineages would / could say what WSL said (apparently).
But, I'm at a loss as to why the shape has no practical application. If I had to venture a guess, it's probably because of / related to the other thread about the hands being based off pole etc.
I.E one arm fighting. Using the same hand to cancel and hit.

Yet another possibility is that different types of punches or strikes have different elbow energies associated with them. So, a punch driven by a tan elbow is different than a punch driven by a jum, etc.

Dunno, just my thoughts...
 
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KPM

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^^^^^^So, just to be clear, you are saying you don't know of other lineages other than WSL that teach this?
 

guy b.

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But, I'm at a loss as to why the shape has no practical application.

Because there are shapes which are much more effective to put on the end of a tan elbow than an upwards facing palm. You could use an upwards facing palm, but it wouldn't be very clever in 99% or possible situations. The tan hand shape is a training shape which helps to make it clear what to do with the elbow. The entire first form is about what to do with the elbow!
 
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KPM

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I don't think that determining numbers of people believing has any bearing on truth.

It has some bearing on the truth of whether lineages other than WSL teach this. Many of the people here have been around for awhile and know quite a bit. If they've never heard of this from lineages other than WSL.......
 

ShortBridge

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I don't know broad, cross-lineage truth either, but I'll share personally that tan sao was a hand that I learned and drilled, but thought to myself that I would never chose to use over other alternatives in the system...for years. Then one day I experienced it differently and it started me down a new path with it and I certainly feel like there is a place for it now in my bag of application tricks.

It wasn't obvious or easy to come by for me, but I wouldn't want to be without it now.

Just my personal experience, for what it's worth.
 

Danny T

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Because there are shapes which are much more effective to put on the end of a tan elbow than an upwards facing palm. You could use an upwards facing palm, but it wouldn't be very clever in 99% or possible situations. The tan hand shape is a training shape which helps to make it clear what to do with the elbow. The entire first form is about what to do with the elbow!
I can agree with your opinion to a point. SNT is lot more than just what to do with the elbow. The complete movement into the tan structure is also a very important aspect especially when it come to defending vs edged weapons.
 

wckf92

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Because there are shapes which are much more effective to put on the end of a tan elbow than an upwards facing palm. You could use an upwards facing palm, but it wouldn't be very clever in 99% or possible situations. The tan hand shape is a training shape which helps to make it clear what to do with the elbow. The entire first form is about what to do with the elbow!

I concur
 

Cephalopod

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Because there are shapes which are much more effective to put on the end of a tan elbow than an upwards facing palm.

Shapes more effective for striking? No doubt.
I think of the tan as the shape used for connecting to the opponent's bridge, if necessary (if not necessay you would just be driving a punch down the center line).
I have found that small changes in the position of the hand will effect the nature of the tension within the forearm. Making a fist, even lightly, will bunch up the forearm flexors to a degree. Drawing the thumb back and mentally projecting the fingertips forward is how I train my tan so that, from the elbow forward, my arm is alive and flexible. When the blows start flying fast and hard, this aliveness is the only way I can prevent myself from getting caught in that split second of fighting force with force. Instead the tan can divert the force to the outside, roll into bong if the force crosses my center or just blast up the middle if the opponent's center is open. At that point of disconnection is when the hand shape will change into a fist or open into some kind of appropriate palm strike.
 
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KPM

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^^^^^ Yes that. And then at a certain point you don't consciously think about drawing back the thumb or projecting the fingers forward at all, its just part of the "muscle memory". And you don't have to put a lot of tension into that. If you believe that the Tan is all about training the elbow, and that the blocking surface when used defensively is the outer forearm, then the shape of the hand isn't as important when using it as a parry or deflection. But think about it. If you are deflecting outward with the forearm you will just naturally supinate and end up in a palm up position. You don't need any tension in the hand to point or "aim" the fingertips at all. It will just naturally end up "palm up." So I ask Guy...what is a more natural shape to put on the end of the "tan elbow" when you are using it defensively than this? What is more effective when used defensively than this?
 

paitingman

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Can anyone elaborate on what WSL lineages teaches about tan sau? I've never heard about that before and would like to hear more on their perspective.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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you don't consciously think about drawing back the thumb or projecting the fingers forward at all, ... the shape of the hand isn't as important.
When you draw back the thumb, your "tiger mouth - space between thumb and 1st finger" is closed and your intention/ability to grab on your opponent's punching arm is gone. IMO, it's better to have that possibility open in case you may need it. A block can always followed by a grab and pull.

tiger_mouth.gif
 
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Cephalopod

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.. at a certain point you don't consciously think about drawing back the thumb or projecting the fingers forward at all, its just part of the "muscle memory".

Of course...as with all good kung fu :)

You don't need any tension in the hand to point or "aim" the fingertips at all. It will just naturally end up "palm up."
Perhaps not, but the constant "engagement" of the hand helps program your forward intention to always be there, ready for the next change. I find that when my tan sao gets collapsed, stiffened or disconnected by a sudden change in force, it is often because I got lazy and let my hand go limp.
 

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