Will pulling your punches lead to bad habits?

[cfr]

I was recently checking out a particular MA and it got me thinking. Many MA' ists spend a lot of time pretending to strike someone, but stopping a couple inches from the target. Yes, I understand the reasoning, no need to explain it. But I am wondering if this would not lead to a bad habit that may be repeated in an actual fight? After all, it is said often that "you fight how you train". That being the case, wouldn't the above scenario be possible? For those of you who train this way, how do you make sure you wouldn't make this mistake when the time came? I am asking not to start any style vs. style debates, but because Im really curious.

Thanks!

 

[Flying Crane]

well, what is the alternative? Do you nail your uke with a full power punch every time instead? Seems to me that is the flip side of the coin.

You can pull your strikes so you don't injure your uke and bring your training to a premature end, but you train to develop your power on heavy bags, or makiwara, or sand bags, or whatever. Or else you drill your uke every time, and he gets hurt every time, and refuses to train with you. And then when it's your turn to be uke, you get drilled every time, and you get hurt, and you cannot train anymore either.

So what method makes more sense?

No matter how you train, it is not a real fight. It is only a simulation. If it was a real fight, someone would go to the hospital or the morgue every day. Your training would be very short lived.

Training to fight is a simulation at best, it's just a matter of deciding what is the most reasonable simulation, balancing the conflicting goals of developing effective and powerful techniques, while at the same time not causing or receiving debilitating injury.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I was recently checking out a particular MA and it got me thinking. Many MA' ists spend a lot of time pretending to strike someone, but stopping a couple inches from the target. Yes, I understand the reasoning, no need to explain it. But I am wondering if this would not lead to a bad habit that may be repeated in an actual fight? After all, it is said often that "you fight how you train". That being the case, wouldn't the above scenario be possible? For those of you who train this way, how do you make sure you wouldn't make this mistake when the time came? I am asking not to start any style vs. style debates, but because Im really curious.

Thanks!

If all you do is spar, yes you will be destroyed in the real world. On the other hand, if that is one small part, you're fine. If you go full force when you do forms, and hit the bag full force, and hit pads full force, and break boards, you're fine. That's part of the point of board breaking.

 

[Sukerkin]

I think perhaps the perspective to take on this is that what you are in fact training is the ability to hit the point that you aim at. This is part and parcel of the necessity of focus and visualisation during kata based training too, especially in the sword arts.

If you don't do this, then a kata is a ritualised set of moves done in a prescribed sequence and, whilst you may learn the moves very well, they don't become the set of tools you need if it ever becomes necessary to make use of them in the 'wild'.

The mindset is not that you stopped from hitting your partner but that you actually struck the point in space that you intended to. If that's kept at heart throughout, it's not a 'habit of missing' that you are settling into spinal reflex but the co-ordination of a strike that goes where you wish it and as hard as you want it.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

A proficient martial artist should be able to hit hard, but also to have the control to hit light or not at all.JMO

 

[arnisador]

well, what is the alternative?

Boxing.

 

[cfr]

well, what is the alternative?

They do exist, but I am desperately attempting to keep this from a style vs. style debate.

 

[MJS]

I realize you're trying to keep this from the usual, but I can't help but think you're referring to MMA. If that is the case, sure, they do go with alot of contact, but keep a few things in mind. Fighting is their job. I wonder how many have a real world job by day, and they turn into a fighter by night? There may be some that do, but for myself, I can't afford to be out of work due to an injury I got by fighting. Even a MMA fighter must pull their technique a bit, otherwise they're going to have to start looking for new partners. I doubt they're breaking each others arms every time they apply an armbar. How good can it be for the human body to constantly be KOd?

Enough of a rant, I'm sure you see what Im saying. IMHO, I think its a fine line and each person needs to know where to draw it during their training. For myself, I hit the heavy bag, the focus mitts and I spar with a reasonable amount of contact. I had a lesson with my inst. this past Thursday. He geared up and I threw knees to the body and elbows to the head. When doing techniques, sure I make body contact, but I'm not trying to break ribs. So that is the fine line. Am I going to pull by hit to the body when I'm faced with someone bent on seriously injuring me?

Mike

 

[MJS]

I was recently checking out a particular MA and it got me thinking. Many MA' ists spend a lot of time pretending to strike someone, but stopping a couple inches from the target.

To further expand on this part. I know that some tend to frown upon the use of certain gear, but if you want to pick up the pace, you're going to have to use it. When throwing punches, either to the body or face, way not put on a glove? It allows the puncher to throw a little faster and it allows the punchee some protection in the event they don't block, move, etc.

I can see in the beginning, going slower, giving more room for error, etc., but once the student reaches the upper ranks, those strikes should be getting closer, faster and the contact picked up. If someone can't handle a hard kick aimed at the stomach and be able to execute a defense, by the time they're at the intermediate ranks, IMO, they need to start re-evaluating their training.

Mike

 

[setboy]

Will pulling your punches lead to bad habits?


No

 

[14 Kempo]

To answer your topic question ... No

We practice three ways:
1) Pulling the punch aimed at the target; Accuracy and Control.
2) Punching past the target; Control and Extention.
3) Hitting the bags; Accuracy, Control, Extention and Power.

My two cents ...

 

[qi-tah]

I was recently checking out a particular MA and it got me thinking. Many MA' ists spend a lot of time pretending to strike someone, but stopping a couple inches from the target. Yes, I understand the reasoning, no need to explain it. But I am wondering if this would not lead to a bad habit that may be repeated in an actual fight? After all, it is said often that "you fight how you train".

Sortof... i actually find that in a fight, you revert to a simple number of things that you know work, and the adrenaline is such that you put everything and then the kitchen sink into yr strikes, apps, cheap shots and general scrapping.

In a way, i find sparring is a bit like a "range finder" - once you get familiar with it, you know how much more distance you need to cover in order to to effectively land a strike. There is also a saying in TCMA that goes something like "energy follows intention" (apols if i've got it wrong) - if you visualise penetrating a surface (bag, face etc) you will wind up hitting harder. As long as the adjustments you need to make to land the strike are within yr capabilities (hence getting strikes as close and fast as possible during training), then you should be able to make hard contact when you need to.

 

[Logan]

I see the pulling your punches stuff as training responses. In a real situation you rarely will have time to think and will tend to operate on reflex and instinct. Focusing good technique on target areas helps condition that response to allow a better response to an attack/defense.

I do think that the same techniques should be drilled on a heavy bag to also get used to focusing power. Both approaches work hand-in-hand.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Pulling punches lead to bad habits? My answer is "YES IT WILL"

When you are in a stressful situtions/ adrenline dumping.....you will remember some of the ways you were train.

If you pull punches alot of times in sparing? ....In a real fight you will do the same thing...unconsciously.

THAT IS WHY EVERYONE SAYS THE WAY YOU TRAIN AND IS TRAINING...IS THE WAY YOU ARE GOING TO FIGHT OR BE FIGHING FOR REALS.

Practicing in the Dojo? ...we cannot go full power, because people will get hurt. Pulling punches is OK...but do not practice only this way!

By hitting bags, mitts,boards,punching bags, etc at full power is the best way to train.

Until you get into a real sitution fighting for your life? ....you will understand this more........stress,adrenline, kicks in? ....your training will take over? It is how you train the effects your outcome.

Most people do not train under stressful situtions...in a dojo there is NO fear of getting hurt/kill. BUT on the streets all alone, in is dark, no one around, by yourself. FEAR kicks in....

How many of us train this way? In an all out fight? Until you get in a boxing ring with gloves and go at it full force? ...it is different than sparing.

Until you go into a full out MMA type of fight? You will never know how you will really fight for REAL!

Hopefully our training becomes good enough to know about Avoidance & Awareness. The best skills to learn...takes lots of practice too!

Yes! The way you train is the way you will end up fighting.....(when the time comes? ...you will know this answer for yourself! NOT from others?

( "we learn by doing things for real" ) ...when you do it without thinking? ...it becomes a part of you- unconsciously. How do you feel where your training is mostly at?

Aloha (Real training will always be the best teachers!)

 

[Kacey]

It depends on what you mean. I don't train to hit people or targets; I train to hit a point in space. So if that space is 2 inches in front of the target, I hit it... if it's on the surface of the target, I hit it... if it's 2 inches behind the target, I hit it (assuming the target is yielding enough to allow me to do so). Whether the target is a focus pad, a heavy bag, or a person doesn't matter - it only matters where the point in space that I am aiming at happens to be at the time I'm aiming.

Think of a marble. Now hit the marble. Place the marble wherever you want it to be, and still hit the marble. I don't aim at people, pads or bags - I aim at a series of marbles that are available in front of, on the surface of, or within my target - how deep I go, or how much I miss by, depends on the purpose of the strike.

Here's an exercise for you. Get a partner. Practice hitting a focus pad with your partner with a particular technique until you can hit it reliably at the depth you desire, at the height of the person's solar plexus. Then remove the pad and hit your partner with exactly the same precision and power in the solar plexus. There is no difference... except the one in your mind, that tells you that you will hurt your partner if you miss - focus on the marble, not the surface behind it, and you will hit your target. Now change your target to your partner's nose. Again... there is no difference; your marble is still your marble, your focus point... but your mind will tell you it is different, because you can do more damage hitting someone in the nose than in the solar plexus, if you miss even a little - so don't miss! Hit your marble.

Focus is in your mind - it's all in where you place your marble, and how much you let your mind overrule your understanding of focus, how much you let the awareness of potential injury affect your ability to hit your marble. Now, I realize this is easier said than done - but once you understand that sparring is hitting a series of moving points (marbles) at the desired depth, you can move your marble closer to or farther away from any particular point, and once you can do that, you can hit as deep into your target as you need to for any conditions.

 

[Gordon Nore]

To answer your topic question ... No

We practice three ways:
1) Pulling the punch aimed at the target; Accuracy and Control.
2) Punching past the target; Control and Extention.
3) Hitting the bags; Accuracy, Control, Extention and Power.

My two cents ...

My understanding of the OP's concern is this: How you train is how you will fight. I think your analysis is an excellent summary of how any art trains for combat or defense without using up training partners.

I think a punch can be pulled with or without hitting the target. During self-defense drills and other practice, I try really hard not to hit someone in the face or head -- never the neck -- especially since pads are not being worn. Shots to the body are another matter. Depending upon the experience and fitness of the participants, I think a certain amount of contact is to be expected.

Now, when sparring with pads, I'm still holding back on head shots, but there will be contact from time to time because it's free form, because people are trying seize the advantage, etc. Again, I'm less worried about hitting or getting hit in the body because I figure I'm supposed to be able to take some hits now and then.

Whatever I'm doing, I always feel like crap if I hit someone too hard. Hitting a lower belt, or especially a beginner, too hard is the worst feeling in the world for me.

As you suggest, control is always being taught and practised. Ideally, that sense of control, even when confronted with real violence, will serve the practitioner.

 

[cfr]

Thanks for all the responses. However, my apologies as I should have been more specific and perhaps should have named the post title something else. I was NOT referring to hitting people lightly during sparring. I was only referring to self defense techs that need to be practiced by stopping the strike a couple inches away from the intended target. Again, I understand the logic, but still do wonder about it. I just thought I'd clarify.

 

[kidswarrior]

I'm not really an EPAK guy by training, but wasn't it Mr. Parker who said something like, My MAists don't pull their punches, they control their punches?

 

[CuongNhuka]

I stick by my earlier response of pads, bags, and boards. And add what Kid said. The discrpition Cuong Nhu guys use (by the way) is that you should throw a full force, fully comitted attack, and stop a fraction of an inch before your opponent.

 

[kidswarrior]

The discrpition Cuong Nhu guys use (by the way) is that you should throw a full force, fully comitted attack, and stop a fraction of an inch before your opponent.

This is a pretty good description of how I learned the San Soo 'workout'.