Why most martial arts don't work in self defense.

[drop bear]

When people say that, they are talking about "weapon fight" and not open hand fight.

When I swing my stick, I don't care whether if you are Maham Ali or Mike Tyson, you better move out of my way.

Yeah. But so does the other guy. That is what a fight is.

 

[drop bear]

your simultaneously accepting my point and dismissing it as largely irrelevant.

physicality isnt another martial skill, its the frame work on which the tapestry of martial skills are built

the chances of you being able to use your '' skills effectively in self defence increase as your physicality increases and clearly decrease if you let yourself go. in the definition of fitter im including strength endurance reactions, co ordination balance etc

if your dramatically fitter than your attacker then just about anything will work, if that is reversed they very little will

if its more or less even Stevens then, your relying on good technique to make the difference

now its my believe that studying ma SHOULD result in you being fitter than average , if it doesn't and my dojo is a bit light on fitness to be honest, then you need to augment it yourself if you want to be able to put up a reasonable defence against average people or hold your own against above average people

It is not largely irrelevant. But you also can't say all fights are won on physicality alone.

This bit I didn't agree with.

"putting up vids of hulking profesional mma fighter v skinny TC masters doesnt alter that. theres a fair chance he would have done much the same to a less able MMA student, which would then have proved precisly nothing, but the better man won"

The rokus Aikido journey I think shows otherwise. In that he changed his methodology and his fighting ability significantly increased. This included a lot of elements including an increase in physicality.

 

[Buka]

your simultaneously accepting my point and dismissing it as largely irrelevant.

physicality isn't another martial skill, its the frame work on which the tapestry of martial skills are built

That's a great line right there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"This has been tested on the battlefield for centuries".

The correct MA path during ancient time should be:

Open hand training -> weapon training -> group soldiers battle field training

Mandarin Duck formation had been proved to be effective in battle field.

 

[jobo]

It is not largely irrelevant. But you also can't say all fights are won on physicality alone.

This bit I didn't agree with.

"putting up vids of hulking profesional mma fighter v skinny TC masters doesnt alter that. theres a fair chance he would have done much the same to a less able MMA student, which would then have proved precisly nothing, but the better man won"

The rokus Aikido journey I think shows otherwise. In that he changed his methodology and his fighting ability significantly increased. This included a lot of elements including an increase in physicality.

and i didnt say that, but you need enough physicality to keep you in the fight long enough for your skills to work

and lets face it if the guy is stronger than you, lasts longer than you and has better reactions/ co ordination, then you have an uphill battle to do anything useful, even if he has only basic fighting skills, if he also happens to be an MMA professional, you've pretty much lost

but we were talking about self defence, being fitter than a professional fighter is a difficult task, being fitter than the guy who attacks you in the shopping centre ( mall) is a bit more doable, if your only averagely fit there a 50 % he isn't as fit as you are, our TC master may have done a lot better in those circumstances

 

[Buka]

I find it a crying shame that anyone might train in the Arts for several years and not be in shape. I'm talking about real shape, fit shape, fighting shape. How can anyone not push themselves when dedicating so much time to something so valuable?

I always promised my students something. I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."

I realize that kind of thinking might not be for everyone, but then, Martial Arts training isn't for everyone, either.

 

[skribs]

I find it a crying shame that anyone might train in the Arts for several years and not be in shape. I'm talking about real shape, fit shape, fighting shape. How can anyone not push themselves when dedicating so much time to something so valuable?

I always promised my students something. I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."

I realize that kind of thinking might not be for everyone, but then, Martial Arts training isn't for everyone, either.

For a lot of people (myself included) it's hard to go to the gym, but easy to go to martial arts class. When I was 23 I started going to the gym. I gave myself every excuse to skip a session. Too sore. Had a cough. Don't like the weather. Forgot my gym bag and I'd have to run home first. Allergies are acting up. Had a bloody nose...yesterday. It was easy to skip going, because it wasn't much fun. Pumping iron gets monotonous. Running even more so.

Age 24 I started Taekwondo. I was practicing at home for hours every day. I'd work on my stretches for higher kicks. I'd do my forms and one-steps over and over again so I'd memorize them for the next class. I'd iron out any details on the forms that I learned in class, so I'd be ready to learn more for the next class. Due to my passion (obsession) for martial arts, and the fact I'd had previous experience, I quickly became an instructor and spent all my free time at my dojang, either teaching or training. But even though I was exercising, and I'd sweat and all that, I wasn't really working out. I wasn't lifting weights, wasn't pushing myself with body-weight exercises, wasn't working to improve my cardio with running. Part of it is the same as before (the gym isn't much fun), part of it was that I simply didn't have the time.

I've got a bit of a lighter schedule now, and I'm trying to get to the gym more often. I average about once a week now. I'm pushing back towards my full schedule, where once a week may be a luxury.

Should I reduce my schedule again, I'd rather take extra classes in something else than use that time for the gym. I'd have more fun that way, and likely get in more exercise if I'm not making excuses to stay home.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."

You may get knock down by someone who has less striking art training than you have, but you will never be taken down by someone who has less throwing art training.

The throwing art is different from the striking art.

 

[jobo]

For a lot of people (myself included) it's hard to go to the gym, but easy to go to martial arts class. When I was 23 I started going to the gym. I gave myself every excuse to skip a session. Too sore. Had a cough. Don't like the weather. Forgot my gym bag and I'd have to run home first. Allergies are acting up. Had a bloody nose...yesterday. It was easy to skip going, because it wasn't much fun. Pumping iron gets monotonous. Running even more so.

Age 24 I started Taekwondo. I was practicing at home for hours every day. I'd work on my stretches for higher kicks. I'd do my forms and one-steps over and over again so I'd memorize them for the next class. I'd iron out any details on the forms that I learned in class, so I'd be ready to learn more for the next class. Due to my passion (obsession) for martial arts, and the fact I'd had previous experience, I quickly became an instructor and spent all my free time at my dojang, either teaching or training. But even though I was exercising, and I'd sweat and all that, I wasn't really working out. I wasn't lifting weights, wasn't pushing myself with body-weight exercises, wasn't working to improve my cardio with running. Part of it is the same as before (the gym isn't much fun), part of it was that I simply didn't have the time.

I've got a bit of a lighter schedule now, and I'm trying to get to the gym more often. I average about once a week now. I'm pushing back towards my full schedule, where once a week may be a luxury.

Should I reduce my schedule again, I'd rather take extra classes in something else than use that time for the gym. I'd have more fun that way, and likely get in more exercise if I'm not making excuses to stay home.

it really doesnt take a great deal of time or a gym for that matter.

you can completely wreck yourself in 5 mins

or multi task,as today, i spent the entire run of TWD doing bicep curls, 500 of them

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I find it a crying shame that anyone might train in the Arts for several years and not be in shape. I'm talking about real shape, fit shape, fighting shape. How can anyone not push themselves when dedicating so much time to something so valuable?

I always promised my students something. I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."

I realize that kind of thinking might not be for everyone, but then, Martial Arts training isn't for everyone, either.

I go back and forth. I've been self-training for the last few months-I couldn't justify me spending $150 when I could only go maybe once a week due to my schedule. And there weren't any 24 hour gyms I could go to for my working days. Gained about 20-30 pounds and lost a ton of muscle mass since december. A new gym opened 9 days ago near me thats 24/7, I've gone 7 times, hoping to get back to fighting shape.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How much skill do you need for SD?

If your opponent use straight punch at you, you can use circular punch to knock his punch away. Your other circular punch then can hit on his head. This double hooks combo can work on almost all straight punches.

If you are good in "double hooks" combo, you should be able to take care most of the attack. You can combine offense and defense into one skill.

 

[drop bear]

How much skill do you need for SD?

If your opponent use straight punch at you, you can use circular punch to knock his punch away. Your other circular punch then can hit on his head. This double hooks combo can work on almost all straight punches.

If you are good in "double hooks" combo, you should be able to take care most of the attack. You can combine offense and defense into one skill.

Yeah you would think that. But when that hulking guy throws them fast with intention
Many people can't stop those shots.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
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Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.

1. Wrong assumptions - Martial artists make many wrong assumptions about the streets. They assume it's going to be a fair fight. They assume they're going to face one untrained opponent. I could go on and on. When you're on the streets, you're not in your turf. You're in the criminal's territory. Street attackers don't follow your dojo or MMA gym's rules. They go by street rules which often has no rules.

2. Trying to control too many variables - The second biggest problem with most martial arts is they try to control too many variables. They often do demos. with compliant partners and spar with people of the same style. They add rules of what is and is not allowed in sparring. Truthfully, you can't control everything that happens in the streets. There's going to be things outside of your control. You can't really predict how your attacker will attack. All you can do is make educated guesses.

3. Unrealistic scenarios - Most martial artists engage in very unrealistic scenarios. They assume a street attacker will attack the way in a controlled manner usually in the defender's own art. That's far from reality. Most attackers attack chaotically with wild punches, kicks, bearhugs, bodyslams, headbutts, tackles, sucker punches, etc. It's going to be too fast and chaotic for your techniques to work.

4. Unrealistic techniques - Most martial artists have unrealistic techniques. They're too flashy to work in combat. They usually think in sequences. The problem with sequences is you're assuming your attacker won't react or resist. They usually resist the moment you try to do your first technique which makes it harder for you to execute your second one.

5. Unrealistic mindset - Most martial artists train with a sports mindset. They don't know the difference between an attack and a fight. An attack is a violent act meant to hurt you without your consent whereas a fight is agreed on. In a fight, there's some degree of respect and protection via. referees, mats, gloves, etc. That doesn't exist in a real attack. Street attackers have no problem bashing your skull in with a pipe. There's more blood and guts in street attacks than there is in fighting.

6. Impractical exercises - Martial artists often engage in pointless work outs like flow drills and forms. Flow drills don't translate well to real combat for several reasons. 1) Your attacker won't stay in one range. Your attacker will start in one distance then move to another. 2) There's no intent to attack. People who do flow drills often attack with the intent for their partners to defend and counter then repeat. Martial artists say "well the point of flow drills is to practice your reflexes, speed, coordination, etc." Well, getting those benefits practicing flow drills is the equivalent of playing patty-cakes with your hands. Forms are also useless. You can practice your techniques on an imaginary opponent all day, but things completely change when you're dealing with a real attacker. Martial artists think they're improving their stance, structure, techniques, etc. by doing forms. They're in for a rude awakening when they get attacked and can't maintain their forms under pressure via. getting rammed against, getting punched wildly, etc.

7. Ignorance of weapons and multiple attackers - Most martial artists neglect training against multiple attackers and armed attackers. They'll say "no art can deal with such situations" or "run" to justify bad training. If they do train against them, it's usually scripted and too flashy to be realistic. In fact, most martial artists who get attacked on the streets end up hurt or killed by weapons and/or multiple attackers.

8. Ignorance of stress - Most martial artists don't realize stress can greatly decrease your performance. It's not enough to simply spar full contact. When you reached a certain level of stress, your brain forgets complex motor skills because it's not necessary for survival. That means all your flashy techniques become useless. You'll get tunnel vision, stiff muscles, difficulty concentrating, difficulty breathing, etc. If you don't know how to manage stress, your techniques will suffer and might find yourself getting beaten up regardless if you had the right training or not.

9. Wrong techniques - Martial artists often train with the wrong techniques. They think if a punch or kick lands, it works. Nothing could be further from the truth. If it doesn't end the threat fast be it by breaking your attacker's limbs or knocking him/her out, it's not helping you defend yourself. Like the case with Meredith Kercher. She was a Karateka who got jumped by two people who plotted to kill her with knives. She fought for her life using Karate. She still got stabbed multiple times with knives, raped, and died with a sit throat. People can take Karate punches because they don't pack as much as power as other arts like boxing.

That's why most martial arts are impractical for self defense.

I would say the best way to be able to defend yourself is to be a police officer, they carry guns and they come in great numbers.

 

[dvcochran]

How much skill do you need for SD?

If your opponent use straight punch at you, you can use circular punch to knock his punch away. Your other circular punch then can hit on his head. This double hooks combo can work on almost all straight punches.

If you are good in "double hooks" combo, you should be able to take care most of the attack. You can combine offense and defense into one skill.

You need to fight a real boxer.

 

[dvcochran]

and i didnt say that, but you need enough physicality to keep you in the fight long enough for your skills to work

and lets face it if the guy is stronger than you, lasts longer than you and has better reactions/ co ordination, then you have an uphill battle to do anything useful, even if he has only basic fighting skills, if he also happens to be an MMA professional, you've pretty much lost

but we were talking about self defence, being fitter than a professional fighter is a difficult task, being fitter than the guy who attacks you in the shopping centre ( mall) is a bit more doable, if your only averagely fit there a 50 % he isn't as fit as you are, our TC master may have done a lot better in those circumstances

I always promised my students something. I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."

These two posts are both sides of the Rocky equation. In the first match against Creed, Rocky was an slug that trained hard and nearly won. He was not physically better, stronger or faster but had more physicality, more 'want to'. More will to win. You will see similar occurrences in nearly every sport from time to time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah you would think that. But when that hulking guy throws them fast with intention
Many people can't stop those shots.

Why do you have to assume that your opponent will throw fast punches with intention? Why don't you assume that you will throw fast punches with intention?

If you can put your opponent in defense mode, is that the best SD strategy?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. This brings up another very important point. And it overflows to martial arts.

Your body does not respond to rationalization. You can't make deals with it. If you are trying to loose weight and your cat dies. Your body does not give you a day pass to eat chocolate.

It is what I have mentioned as these basically non negotiable elements to training.

So yes if you train diligently but without intensity you will not get as good a result.

And with martial arts if you train diligently but without intensity you will not get as good a result.

When I say there is one method this is exactly my point.

And it is not my fault. It is not because I am mean. I would love to turn up to class once a week and be able to subdue a room full of footballers with standing arm bars. But evidence has shown me that I can't.

Yep, we're saying much the same thing in the majority of this stuff, though you seem to think I do something entirely different.

I haven't heard anyone talk about taking down a room of footballers with an arm bar. From my view, standing arm bars mostlly aren't what some folks think they are. WIthin the aiki arts, in my view, the primary principle is closer to an arm drag or Russian wrist snap (I think that's the right term for what I'm thinking of), and the actual locking of the elbow is secondary. So, does a standing arm bar work against a resisting opponent? Yes, though not necessarily as a lock. Some of them are reliable if you ever get to them, though I find them much more likely to be available in ground work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You need to fight a real boxer.

It's not that difficult to train this skill.

- Get yourself a heavy bag.
- Throw left hook, right hook as fast, as powerful as you can "like a mad man". Don't stop until you get exhausted.

If you train like this for 3 years, you should be able to handle yourself in normal SD situation.

"Like a mad man" is the key word. If you are a mad man, people will be afraid of you and stay away from you. They will worry about how to defend themselves against you instead.

So the short cut for SD is to develop a single skill that you can use it to scare everybody away.

This is my favor "mad man attack" example. Instead of using left hook, right hook, he uses jab, cross.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's a great line right there.

Agreed. You beat me to quoting that. Well said, @jobo.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why most martial arts don't work in self defense.

Because people have not developed "door guarding" skill yet. They may have learned 20 forms, 200 technique, but none of their technique have "high successful rate".

If you have taken down 100 guys (not sure you can find 100 guys to knock down), the chance that you may take down the 101 guy will be high.