Xinglu
Black Belt
I think that is fair. If you can consistently dominate and in this case KO a BB in your system... then hey, why not.
who gave ed parker his black belt ?
- Thread starter suicide
- Start date
I think that is fair. If you can consistently dominate and in this case KO a BB in your system... then hey, why not.
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hello,
I see your point and understand, I think?
I, however, feel that the black belt ranking should not be "bestowed" for fighting ability only. I think that level must take into consideration one's knowledge in the system and training in the art, as well.
There are many highly skilled "street fighters" with little or no traditional martial arts training, or ability. Should they be given a 3rd Dan because they sucessfully "mugged" and knocked out a 3rd Dan? Or, perhaps a 4th dan, because they defeated a 3rd Dan?
I know that this type of ranking is fairly common in Judo, or at least was. Of course that was in a purely sporting realm. I, too, know that in the old days (40's and 50's, perhaps into the 60's) that ranking was more related to ones fighting ability. These days, if you are consistantly "knocking out" your classmates and peers, I think some classes in control would be merited. Certainly not a promotion.
This is the 21st century. I would not wish ranking directly related to ones own fighting ability. The same ability that can vary day by day, opponent by opponent. So, when the brown belt defeats the black belt does the brown get black, or the black get brown??? Or, both?
Not to take the significance away from fighting ability, or to discount the last two posts... I know that things used to be somewhat different in the "olden" days. Just to offer a different side of the discussion.
Pro's, con's, etc...???
A nice topic discussion "branch". Thank you.
Milt G.
dianhsuhe
Blue Belt
I agree with Milt G. actually...The arts are about much more than fighting.
I have always loved the story though about this because:
1. It was a woman who KO'd a man
2. The man was a Professor Chow BB
3. The woman was 15 and relatively low ranking
She still teaches and trains (Kara-Ho) in Idaho also...
Not sure how many women were promoted to BB by Professor Chow-
I have always loved the story though about this because:
1. It was a woman who KO'd a man
2. The man was a Professor Chow BB
3. The woman was 15 and relatively low ranking
She still teaches and trains (Kara-Ho) in Idaho also...
Not sure how many women were promoted to BB by Professor Chow-
Xinglu
Black Belt
It is also my understanding that she was using Kara-Ho to defeat this BB. When a novice is using the material taught to beat other BB in the system, I don't see the problem with using a fast track method. Furthermore, Professor Chow knew what he wanted to see in his BB, and clearly she had it.
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hello,
Purple to black is certainly the "fast track".
Who she was related to probably did not hurt, either. May have been the reason her "opponent" handled her differently, as well. If he did, of course? I may have. I do not come at 15 year old colored belts like I do advanced adults. So, the same could happen to me, I guess?Who knows? Many "variables" here...
I thank you guys for your input!
Milt G.
dianhsuhe
Blue Belt
Hello,
Purple to black is certainly the "fast track".
Who knows? Many "variables" here...
I thank you guys for your input!
Milt G.
Very possible Milt! I will have to ask Grandmaster Kuoha to tell the story again the next time I see him. I almost want to say she was using a high-kick for the K.O. (Dad taught her that-) which is what spawned the origin of the high kicks in Kara-Ho.
I know Professor did not do them, but when he saw Grandmaster use them, Professor helped make them "Kara-Ho style" and permitted their addition into the system.
Wish we had her fight on video...
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hello,
I always find it interesting to learn how the martial styles, and arts, have become what they are today. Much of their "evolution" is related as much to personality as it is to other factors.
I have always enjoyed the history of the systems. I have learned, over time, that you must take everything with "a few grains of salt". The stories are told, even by those that were there, differently to some then to others. The story sometimes changes with time or "interest" as well. We all have the truth. Every story and "recount" has some basis in fact. We just have to decide what truth we are willing to believe and which "parts" are the fact. Of course, like personalities, the point of view and perception can be different for each of us. We are all subject to our own beliefs and prejudices.
In the end we all tend to believe what we want. Right or wrong, we may not always know... We may never really know.
Thank you,
Milt G.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Hello,
I see your point and understand, I think?
I, however, feel that the black belt ranking should not be "bestowed" for fighting ability only. I think that level must take into consideration one's knowledge in the system and training in the art, as well.
There are many highly skilled "street fighters" with little or no traditional martial arts training, or ability. Should they be given a 3rd Dan because they sucessfully "mugged" and knocked out a 3rd Dan? Or, perhaps a 4th dan, because they defeated a 3rd Dan?
I know that this type of ranking is fairly common in Judo, or at least was. Of course that was in a purely sporting realm. I, too, know that in the old days (40's and 50's, perhaps into the 60's) that ranking was more related to ones fighting ability. These days, if you are consistantly "knocking out" your classmates and peers, I think some classes in control would be merited. Certainly not a promotion.
This is the 21st century. I would not wish ranking directly related to ones own fighting ability. The same ability that can vary day by day, opponent by opponent. So, when the brown belt defeats the black belt does the brown get black, or the black get brown??? Or, both?
Not to take the significance away from fighting ability, or to discount the last two posts... I know that things used to be somewhat different in the "olden" days. Just to offer a different side of the discussion.
Pro's, con's, etc...???
A nice topic discussion "branch". Thank you.
Milt G.
I think there is a certain amount of "Master's Prerogative." There are formal standards and goals, but there are also moments when someone unexpectedly displays a level of skill or knowledge that is consistent with a higher ranking. I have seen things like this done on a few occasions, and heard of them as well, and in all cases that I am aware of, the rank was bestowed on someone who would "stick around and grow into the belt."
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hello, Dave...
I fully agree. Have seen much of the same, myself. Have even done a couple. I do think a "bump" from an early colored belt to black belt is a bit excessive, though. At least, it is not something I would consider doing. I cannot speak for all, as I have learned over the years. I think of "bumps" as extending one, maybe two, ranks at most...
Of course these are just my opinions... Any similarity between MY opinions, and REAL opinions, is purely coincidential...
Happy Halloween to you, Sir...
Milt G.
dianhsuhe
Blue Belt
I would also not jump someone in rank and I do not think must of us would...But we are talking about Professor Chow, and we are talking a time when a colored belt had YEARS of experience.
She did stay around and teaches in Idaho.
Good input folks!
She did stay around and teaches in Idaho.
Good input folks!
Doc
Senior Master
According to Ed Parker Sr., when he finally contacted Chow and asked him to come to the mainland to set him up as promised, Chow refused to leave Hawaii. When Parker asked why, Chow said, "I don't want to leave my home. You are now on your own." Parker kept his promise but Chow according to Parker, was not interested at the time. It was only later when Parker's notoriety blossomed that Chow appeared to have a change of heart, but Parker had moved on.
Doc
Senior Master
To put things in context, in that same interview where he said Parker was a purple belt, he also placed his own rank at 15th degree. Chow was good at pulling your leg, and often would say things just to see how you reacted to it, and then contradict himself later in the conversation.
I don't know of anyone who seriously questions Mr. Parker's Black Belt rank, but even if some dain bramaged person did, what would it matter? Mr. Parker proved he deserved it. Now how about all the guys that have "legitimate" rank, but don't deserve it.
Doc
Senior Master
Once again, according to Mr. Parker, when Mitose claimed the rank of 10th degree, William Chow responded by saying, "If Mitose is 10th, than I'm 15th degree." Apparently as Mr. Parker told it to me, it was not that Chow took the rank seriously, he was only expressing where he felt he was relative to some others claiming 10th. Once again, often making statements for shock value to see how others responded. After all, who was around that was going to tell him he couldn't be 15th? That was his point.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Wow. I remember when I was a kid reading Black Belt Magazine (and several other publications most of which are no longer in print). It was rare that I would read about someone's rank. It was always just that someone was a black belt. No one really cared about the rank after that point unless you were in their organization. It was all about what you could do. We didn't care about what rank Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, or Frank Smith had. I still don't know what rank any of them are. Don't care either. They were still my childhood heroes. (Later this category of "performers" would shift to people like Chuck Liddell, Randy Coutre, Fedor Emilianenko etc.)
There were also those that were my martial arts heroes that were due to TV or Movies: David Carradine, Tom Laughlin, Jim Kelly, Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris (again), Steven Segal, and the Power Rangers (kidding). Again, I couldn't care less about their ranks (if some of them even had any).
Later, I had other heroes in the martial arts world. These were not the "performers" like those mentioned above, but rather the inovaters and teachers. Prof. Chow, Ed Parker, Choki Motobu, Helio Gracie, Adriano Emperado etc. I never dropped my admiration for the previous groups of martial artists mentioned above (though they are all only partial lists), but I had expanded my definition of martial artist.
These days, my focus has shifted to those I actually know (though none of the above is diminished to my mind either). My instructor and the others that I have met and learned from hold more of a place in my ratings. Again, their rank has nothing to do with it. If someone can teach me something I didn't know before, or improve something I already have, then that's all that counts. Whether said knowledge has been rewarded with a stripe on the belt or not is irrelevant.
Rank is important within an organization for organizational purposes (mostly to do with seniority). Outside of that: Who cares?
There were also those that were my martial arts heroes that were due to TV or Movies: David Carradine, Tom Laughlin, Jim Kelly, Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris (again), Steven Segal, and the Power Rangers (kidding). Again, I couldn't care less about their ranks (if some of them even had any).
Later, I had other heroes in the martial arts world. These were not the "performers" like those mentioned above, but rather the inovaters and teachers. Prof. Chow, Ed Parker, Choki Motobu, Helio Gracie, Adriano Emperado etc. I never dropped my admiration for the previous groups of martial artists mentioned above (though they are all only partial lists), but I had expanded my definition of martial artist.
These days, my focus has shifted to those I actually know (though none of the above is diminished to my mind either). My instructor and the others that I have met and learned from hold more of a place in my ratings. Again, their rank has nothing to do with it. If someone can teach me something I didn't know before, or improve something I already have, then that's all that counts. Whether said knowledge has been rewarded with a stripe on the belt or not is irrelevant.
Rank is important within an organization for organizational purposes (mostly to do with seniority). Outside of that: Who cares?
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
That is interesting. I did not recall Mitose ever claiming a degree of black belt. I had always heard that Chow's claim of 15th was in response to Parker claiming 10th. After all, Chow had taught Parker, and it was unusual at that time for there to be more than one. Not anymore, though...
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hi, Dave...
I agree. That is how I heard the story as well.
I believe the interview with William Chow (written) related this same version. Did Chow make that statement in regards to James Mitose as well? I would certainly not put it past him. As I understand it, Chow never really claimed 15th Dan. He was just using it as an example of his knowledge and skill as compared to others holding the 10th Dan in Kenpo. I think he had some "feelings" about others that were elevated to the same rank as his.
I have not heard about James Mitose claiming any certain rank, either. I do know that the early Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo system did have a detailed rank structure. All understood that James Mitose (Later, Thomas Mitose, because of blood line only. In the earlier times, anyway.) was at the top of the "food chain". Mitose was considered the "honorable great grandmaster" only, to the best of my recollection. The seniors of Kosho-Ryu could be asked. Sadly, some bad feelings and politics may cloud the issue some. The same as some other arts, I guess?
Kenpo... A long and winding road. At best, and at worst.
Happy Holidays.
Milt G.
