whats your take on "alive" concepts

cfr

Black Belt
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Messages
542
Reaction score
5
Location
Pittsburgh, PA.
I have been reading alot lately about the "alive" concepts.

http://www.straightblastgym.com

In my short time in MA, Ive went to a few different schools. All along Ive been thinking I was missing something. Ive got to say, this sounds more to my liking than anything else Ive ever read anywhere in regards to Martial Arts. Better than any certain style or technique. Better than training under any particular individual or school. This stuff makes sense to me. Its the first thing regarding MA thats made total sense to me since my first instructor moved away 2 years ago. However, being that Im still an MA newbie, perhaps Im disillusioned. So, for those of you who have read THOROUHGLY about these concepts, whats your take? Am I being too naive here? Do you disagree? Why? I really want to hear opinions here. Both for and against.
 

hedgehogey

Green Belt
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
192
Reaction score
12
I've trained "dead" and "alive". Alive training is infinetely superior.

Aliveness, is in fact the one thing that will make your martial art work.
 

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
Hmmm...

I like what straight blast Gym says...but for me this is nothing new. Just like a boxer or wrestler, in the FMA that I do, you always train "live" eventually.

:partyon:
 

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
Some of the best stuff is here...
http://www.straightblastgym.com/page.asp?section=qa&parent=Press&session=

This ones pretty blunt...

Question:
[size=+0]What about all the people who aren't jocks. . .who were beat up and are just looking to learn to fight! Who need the spirituality and self defense skills that are offered by realistic "streetfighting" training, and traditional martial arts.[/size]


[size=+1]Answer, posted online:[/size]
[size=+0]Yes, many people come to martial arts to learn to fight. Many were picked on, and or beat up as a kid. Many were not "jocks", and lack a certain level of self esteem.[/size]
[size=+0]The answer to that puzzle exists in athletic training and work against resistance. You can meditate under a waterfall, chant secret chants, etc. All day long. . .but the scared kid inside still exists. However, once that person begins training "alive", against resistance, a wonderful thing happens. .they learn what they can do, what they cant do, they learn what they are truly scared of, and what they are not. . .and low and behold, they begin liking themselves more. Action, is truly the high road to self esteem, as Bruce Lee so eloquently put it.[/size]
[size=+0]I do allot of work with kids that have emotional problems at the Gym. I have also seen kids that lack confidence and self esteem helped greatly by wrestling coaches and others who give of their time.[/size]
[size=+0]Contrast that with traditional self defense, and or streetfighting arts. Put these same scared kids in there. . .they begin wearing camouflage pants, carrying knives everywhere, thinking "tactically", etc. Becoming just bigger dorks and obvious targets for a bully jock. They grow up and turn into the geeks you see at gun and knife shows. The ones who played dungeons and dragons in high school, and were constantly picked on. Instead of confronting those issues through athletics. . .they resort to looking for the "mysterious", the secret Silat master who can teach them to beat up the football players. . .as they have always fantasized.[/size] [size=+0]As Krishnamurti said, "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!"[/size][size=+0]I find it interesting that on the forums that are mostly populated by people training athletically. .ie: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, boxing, etc. when the question of streetfighting comes up, knives, multiple opponents, etc. . most say without hesitation they would run. I have posted the same scenario on "traditional" forums, populated by the kung fu, aikido, shaolin, silat, etc, folks. . .and you would think you had never run into a bigger bunch of bad asses, (at least over the internet). . . .of course reality is that they would be the first to pee their pants and haul ***. The only difference is that they would feel like cowards when they did it. Where as a real fighter, ala; a Rickson, or Royler, or Couture, or even a good wrestler like Stephan Neal, etc, has nothing really to prove. They know what they can do.[/size]
[size=+0]The answer to the abused child, and picked on dork is athletic training. Thats where you can learn about yourself, and they discover that they do not need to be ashamed or afraid around any other man. Its the high road to self esteem. The pitfall for them is the world of deadly martial arts, and weekend commandos. In that world they can live out their fantasies, without ever confronting themselves. Becoming just another bitter geek filled with ******** hippie philosophy.[/size]
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
429
Location
Cromwell,CT
I agree with Thorton 100%! Training alive is the best way to train because its going to give you the best feeling for the tech. and the resistance that you'll most likely get from your attacker.

Mike
 
O

OC Kid

Guest
To me it sounds like the way Ive always trained. Any good school would/should teach that way. But I do disagree in some points as I feel a beginner should be taught slowly even if in static training. Then as they begin grasping concepts move more and more towards realistic fighting self defense. After all kids have to go to K 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6 th jr high highschool, ect, no one ever was born and went stright to grad school.
 

Flatlander

Grandmaster
Joined
May 17, 2004
Messages
6,785
Reaction score
66
Location
The Canuckistan Plains
I think that aliveness in training is crucial to understanding true application, but one needs to understand one's basics first.
 

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
RCastillo said:
All that he says may be true, I guess. But The one that irks me in a another posting on his site is what he calls other art forms as ,"Mental Masturbation."

Now that's a new one to me.

However, without the mental capacity, what are we? :idunno:
I suppose it depends on what you think youre taking the MA for. Hes focusing on people who think they are studying to fight/defend themselves.
 

loki09789

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
2,643
Reaction score
71
Location
Williamsville, NY
RCastillo said:
All that he says may be true, I guess. But The one that irks me in a another posting on his site is what he calls other art forms as ,"Mental Masturbation."

Now that's a new one to me.

However, without the mental capacity, what are we? :idunno:
That is the problem with internet 'infomercial' level of article writing. There is obviously some self promotion in his goals/intent with the article. It will either scare away the trad art fans, challenge them to pay...I mean show up and it will definitely appeal to the LEO/Military professional who thinks that commercial martial arts is full of BS.

The idea is a good one. Aliveness is the first stage of scenario/Reality Based (RB) training. It has to be a part of a sound program though.

I say and have done it this way for a long time in FMA/Kenpo/Military stuff.

Train basics like a trad artist (technical perfection, quality, understanding)

Train technique like a trad artist and then train applications/aliveness like a RB artist (turning up the intensity as you improve) to develop tactical sense during the physical engagement.

Train the application level skill in simulations of the the type of scenario(s) you expect to really do it in. If you are a boxer, box in smokers/timed training rounds. If you are training for military operations, run the operation in as close to the terrain/conditions as you can for the mission you expect to be on. If you are a self defense civilian artist, train in varieties of scenarios that are based on your world/current criminal trends (car jacking, sitting in a restaurant, club/bar, home invasion...).

Aliveness is good. In the College Campus awareness, I suggested using the campus map and combining self defense 'alive' drills with making the student talk through her escape route on the map and verbally go through her after contact actions (reporting to public safety, writing down description as soon as possible, going to the hospital...).

Train like you fight, fight likeyou train.
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 20, 2003
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
39
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
I think StraightBlast has done a good job articulating the Aliveness concept. I also think that Aliveness is one of the most important training concepts. Aliveness is crucial for developing fighting ability. Unfortunately, Aliveness is completely missing from too many training programs.
 
R

RCastillo

Guest
Tgace said:
I suppose it depends on what you think youre taking the MA for. Hes focusing on people who think they are studying to fight/defend themselves.

That's exactly what I focus, teach, and study myself;self defense. But he's also stereotyping. Yes, it's his opinion but that's neither here, or there. It's like he's saying he's right, everyone else is wrong.
 
R

RCastillo

Guest
loki09789 said:
That is the problem with internet 'infomercial' level of article writing. There is obviously some self promotion in his goals/intent with the article. It will either scare away the trad art fans, challenge them to pay...I mean show up and it will definitely appeal to the LEO/Military professional who thinks that commercial martial arts is full of BS.

The idea is a good one. Aliveness is the first stage of scenario/Reality Based (RB) training. It has to be a part of a sound program though.

I say and have done it this way for a long time in FMA/Kenpo/Military stuff.

Train basics like a trad artist (technical perfection, quality, understanding)

Train technique like a trad artist and then train applications/aliveness like a RB artist (turning up the intensity as you improve) to develop tactical sense during the physical engagement.

Train the application level skill in simulations of the the type of scenario(s) you expect to really do it in. If you are a boxer, box in smokers/timed training rounds. If you are training for military operations, run the operation in as close to the terrain/conditions as you can for the mission you expect to be on. If you are a self defense civilian artist, train in varieties of scenarios that are based on your world/current criminal trends (car jacking, sitting in a restaurant, club/bar, home invasion...).

Aliveness is good. In the College Campus awareness, I suggested using the campus map and combining self defense 'alive' drills with making the student talk through her escape route on the map and verbally go through her after contact actions (reporting to public safety, writing down description as soon as possible, going to the hospital...).

Train like you fight, fight likeyou train.

Thanks for your post, very sound, and logical. That guy could take some lessons from you. :asian:
 
R

RCastillo

Guest
Old Fat Kenpoka said:
I think StraightBlast has done a good job articulating the Aliveness concept. I also think that Aliveness is one of the most important training concepts. Aliveness is crucial for developing fighting ability. Unfortunately, Aliveness is completely missing from too many training programs.


Mr. Wortman, I'm doing the best I can! I wear my "Fist' suit, and let the students work me over!!!!!!!!!! :deadhorse LOL!
 
R

rmcrobertson

Guest
I liked a lot of the stuff in the Q & A--especially the warning about falling into the fantasies of instructor and student about becoming a Super Ninja Death Touch Beast.

And of course, I agree that much of martial arts involves whatever this, "aliveness," jazz is--clearly, if you never get hit, never really learn to hit, recite frozen rituals, etc., you'll have "dead," martial arts, and you'll get dead if anything ever really happens.

However, I also think that, "aliveness," has rapidly become one of the Big Silly Cliches in martial arts--or, as another poster mentioned, one of the new advertising slogans. For example, this stuff about training in all sorts of different situations, as though it were possible to either train in every possible situation or actually duplicate the feeling of being in trouble for real.

We aren't professional soldiers, let alone rangers and SEALs--at least I'm not--and I think it would be a lot more real and alive to quit pretending that we are.

Incidentally, traditional martial arts offer another approach to this whole, "different situations," jazz--some of which involves those useless, dead, frozen kata. The idea is to train so that the situation won't matter very much.

We may not agree, but it's a valid argument. And it's not any sillier than some parts of the whole, "aliveness," fad.
 

Tgace

Grandmaster
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
7,766
Reaction score
409
RCastillo said:
That's exactly what I focus, teach, and study myself;self defense. But he's also stereotyping. Yes, it's his opinion but that's neither here, or there. It's like he's saying he's right, everyone else is wrong.
Lots of that going around everywhere you go around here (gotta be honest and include myself at times).....your right. But thats what you gotta do to "make it" in business these days isnt it? How far would anybody get by advertising "I think I may have a better way, Im not 100% certain, but send me your check and see if you like it." :)
 

loki09789

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2003
Messages
2,643
Reaction score
71
Location
Williamsville, NY
RCastillo said:
Thanks for your post, very sound, and logical. That guy could take some lessons from you. :asian:
Other way around IMO. He is 'tactically advertising' and being commercially successful because of it to some degree...

That is why I say that tactical/strategic mastery is the highest level of martial arts expression. If you learn how to be tactically sound, the tools don't matter as much as how you apply them/combine them to accomplish your goal. He is accomplishing his goal: get the information out AND get a response. His advertising kung fu is bigger than mine.:)
 
R

RCastillo

Guest
rmcrobertson said:
I liked a lot of the stuff in the Q & A--especially the warning about falling into the fantasies of instructor and student about becoming a Super Ninja Death Touch Beast.

And of course, I agree that much of martial arts involves whatever this, "aliveness," jazz is--clearly, if you never get hit, never really learn to hit, recite frozen rituals, etc., you'll have "dead," martial arts, and you'll get dead if anything ever really happens.

However, I also think that, "aliveness," has rapidly become one of the Big Silly Cliches in martial arts--or, as another poster mentioned, one of the new advertising slogans. For example, this stuff about training in all sorts of different situations, as though it were possible to either train in every possible situation or actually duplicate the feeling of being in trouble for real.

We aren't professional soldiers, let alone rangers and SEALs--at least I'm not--and I think it would be a lot more real and alive to quit pretending that we are.

Incidentally, traditional martial arts offer another approach to this whole, "different situations," jazz--some of which involves those useless, dead, frozen kata. The idea is to train so that the situation won't matter very much.

We may not agree, but it's a valid argument. And it's not any sillier than some parts of the whole, "aliveness," fad.


Thank you Sir! Good Post. :asian:
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 20, 2003
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
39
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
RCastillo said:
Mr. Wortman, I'm doing the best I can! I wear my "Fist' suit, and let the students work me over!!!!!!!!!! :deadhorse LOL!

Mr. Castillo:

Didn't say aliveness was missing from your training. I would think exactly the opposite. I strongly suspect that you do quite a bit of thumping in sparring and techniques as a member of Tracy's Kenpo organization. :asian:

However, there are instructors, schools, or even styles that focus entirely on Kata and pre-set drills with no sparring and no live interaction. Individual practitioners in these may be aware of their training focus and enjoy the health and spiritual benefits of their training. Other individuals may be deluded believing that their Kata practice and pre-set technique drills are all they need to develop invincible self-defense skills. These other individuals are the ones most in need of a kick in the pants from StraightBlast.
 
R

rmcrobertson

Guest
I've also seen--even in my limited experience--a few people who bragged about, "kick-boxing," and "reality," and couldn't punch, block, kick or take a hit for beans.

Aren't there as least as many places where dead rituals about, "reality," and phony, unrealistic, "scenarios," get passed off as self-defense?

And one other thing: how many people are there--on the real planet--who genuinely have the time and energy to train in several different arts to build all this reality?
 
Top