The value of kata and basics.

[DeLamar.J]

Alot of people seem to talk down on traditional training like kata and basics since sports like the UFC came out, or just dont have the dicipline to take the time to do it because they just want to learn how to hurt someone as fast as they can. Kata and basics teach you good quality movement, foot work, gives the new student a good feel of the martial arts, and a great foundation to build on. The only catch is, this takes alot of dicipline and a good attitude to finally realize what you have accomplished after so long. The old masters were very clever by teaching this way because it basicly WEEDS out the bad apples who have short fuses and no patients, and have no buisness learning how to be effective fighters to begin with. I am the kind of teacher who will not explain to new students what they are getting out of all these, in thier words (boring hours of wierd and confusing movents) because I feel that unless they show alot of maturity and dicipline then I am just (quote from the bible) casting pearls before swine. I dont like to reveal secrets of the martial arts to people unless they earn it, by secretes I mean all the dirty litlle tricks you learn through years of diciplined training. Some times I wonder if that is the wrong out look to teach with because so many great martial artists like bruce lee for example, was very open and wrote books pouring out everthing he could to anyone. So what Im wondering is, teach martial arts completely open, sharing all of your knowlege, or share only with those who you feel are ready and who you know wont abuse it?

 

[ppko]

Kata also shows what you are attacking and how you are attacking it, it is very usefull and a very good way to learn how to fight without having to fight. But to answer your question I believe that you should teach openly but still hold back some stuff for your higher ranking students and even more for just yourself at least until you pass on your school to someone else.



PPKO

 

[loki09789]

Kata is like any other training tool, only effective if it is understood and used well.

I know some kata and practice them more for maintenance right now. But in instruction, I teach those kata for the purpose of reinforcing coordinated movement, combination striking, continuous motion, visualization, endurance, mental focus....... all the same reasons that most do.

Kata/forms are sort of like revisiting a movie or a book that you know well. With the right mind, everytime you revisit it you will make a new discovery or reinforce/rediscover something useful.

This is, of course, in reference to kata that is functionally/application focused and not tournament/performance focused. Those Kata should be practiced for the goal of winning or personal best for the event that you expect to do it in.

 

[Flatlander]

So what Im wondering is, teach martial arts completely open, sharing all of your knowlege, or share only with those who you feel are ready and who you know wont abuse it?

I guess it kind of depends on who you are training, and what their goals are.
Sort of relates to these topics in a way:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14898

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14810

 

[Phoenix44]

Bruce Lee is a perfect example. Yes, he taught openly and wrote down his philosophy and techniques, and no matter how long we all train, we're not going to be Bruce Lee. Sure he had talent and brains, but he trained HARD, and with discipline. And that's what made him brilliant, even though he only weighed maybe 145 lbs.

Now if you're a street fighter, and you're 6-2 and 210, maybe you can brawl with no real technique, if that's what you want to do. But if you're built more like me, for instance, your technique had better be excellent, or you're toast. And if you are disciplined, and you want excellent technique, then you'll have something to be proud of no matter what your size.

As for me, I like to teach my best, most secret techniques to people who I don't think are capable of beating me up with it. Most 8 year olds fit the description.

 

[Flatlander]

Simply put, to answer your question, I think that a teacher should endeavour to teach a student everything that they can. A student is a reflection of their teacher. If you can teach your student to be as skilled or moreso than you, then you are a good teacher. (unless I am your student, because teaching me is like teaching a donkey to tap dance)

 

[loki09789]

Simply put, to answer your question, I think that a teacher should endeavour to teach a student everything that they can. A student is a reflection of their teacher. If you can teach your student to be as skilled or moreso than you, then you are a good teacher. (unless I am your student, because teaching me is like teaching a donkey to tap dance)

But a tap dancing donkey would really put a cramp in your day if it was dancing all over your criminal/assaulting asH...

 

[MJS]

Kata is like any other training tool, only effective if it is understood and used well.

Yes!!! And that is the key!!! If its understood. There have been many other posts on this topic here on MT and I've said the same thing. So many times you'll see people ask what a certain move is, why this is done that way, etc. and most of the time, the instructor cant answer the question. Now, someone like Dillman...he can give you many examples of applications.

Again, everything has its time and place. Kata is good but you still need to get into the ring and train against a live partner whos giving some resistance. Sure, you can break down the moves in the kata and apply them as a SD tech. but again, it needs to be done with resistance.

Mike

 

[ppko]

Yes!!! And that is the key!!! If its understood. There have been many other posts on this topic here on MT and I've said the same thing. So many times you'll see people ask what a certain move is, why this is done that way, etc. and most of the time, the instructor cant answer the question. Now, someone like Dillman...he can give you many examples of applications.

Again, everything has its time and place. Kata is good but you still need to get into the ring and train against a live partner whos giving some resistance. Sure, you can break down the moves in the kata and apply them as a SD tech. but again, it needs to be done with resistance.

Mike

I agree that it should be done with resistance and that is how I train and my students train. All moves in kata start out like a fight starts out (push, grab, pull, punch...) so we do use kata against resisting opponents to make sure that the application that we have come up with will work. But like it has been said many times before it has to be understood.

PPKO

 

[OC Kid]

Kata and the basics are really all that they or anyone really needs. When it all comes down to it the rest is gravy.
I teach my son . He hasnt sparred anyone of any rank just ran through the basics with me over and over fighting drills ect.

So I took him to a school (very well respected both in our area and on this site to)
I know I used to train at. They have a rep for being one of the better fighting schools around.

They started doing point matches . He held his own against a student who was about 3 ranks higher. All he did was basics. he hasnt spaared anyone except some white belts for the past 5 months.
I took him to another school (which also has a great rep) and he fought a kid who was about 3 ranks higher. Held his own went point for point with him. Even the kid kept commenting how good John was. the kid beat im by a 2 point kick
I found out out later the kid is rated #3 in the local circuit.
Bottom line is basics, basics and basics.
A guy I used to train with back in the day Jim Muse (check him out cover of B/B and other mags as well as a rated fighter for years) taught me the most important thing is fighting is timeing,distanceing and footwork. get those down and no one can touch you.

Sorry for babbling again..:>)

 

[Cryozombie]

Learning the basics is an absolute waste of time.

Unless your goal is to be good at what you do.

:asian:

 

[kenpo tiger]

We just had this discussion in our teachers' class last night. In kenpo, the kata are taken from and incorporate our techniques, so it would follow that one must be well-versed in basics (techniques included) in order to do kata. In turn, kata is practice of the basics.

As to size and fighting. I'm 5'3" (if I stand up very tall) and don't weigh much. I hold my own - and the men I spar with will all tell you that. I have always been taught that basics are the key to sparring when one is smaller. [Oddly enough, the instructors who told me that were small men - including two former marines whose fighting skills I admire and whose opinions I value greatly.] Admittedly, there are men who dislike kata and view them as a waste of time, but even they come around to see the value kata have within the broad scheme of one's training. You must have good stances in order to execute any type of effective technique in sparring - and where does one practice stances? And so on. KT

 

[ppko]

Learning the basics is an absolute waste of time.

Unless your goal is to be good at what you do.

:asian:

A great quote

PPKO

 

[ppko]

We just had this discussion in our teachers' class last night. In kenpo, the kata are taken from and incorporate our techniques, so it would follow that one must be well-versed in basics (techniques included) in order to do kata. In turn, kata is practice of the basics.

As to size and fighting. I'm 5'3" (if I stand up very tall) and don't weigh much. I hold my own - and the men I spar with will all tell you that. I have always been taught that basics are the key to sparring when one is smaller. [Oddly enough, the instructors who told me that were small men - including two former marines whose fighting skills I admire and whose opinions I value greatly.] Admittedly, there are men who dislike kata and view them as a waste of time, but even they come around to see the value kata have within the broad scheme of one's training. You must have good stances in order to execute any type of effective technique in sparring - and where does one practice stances? And so on. KT

I just watned to put this on as an added bonus
Long stances = Stability
Short stances = Mobility

PPKO

 

[kenpo tiger]

I just watned to put this on as an added bonus
Long stances = Stability
Short stances = Mobility

PPKO

Thanks. That was part of what I was trying to say but didn't put in my post because I was in a rush. Glad to see we're on the same page with this. KT:asian:

 

[hedgehogey]

My reply:

Why are forms not 'Alive'?

by Matt Thornton

Taken from Straight Blast Gym Website

Believe it or not, there are still a few people out there that feel 'form', kata, or djuru training have some place for an athlete interested in performance. Why this belief still persists is a mystery, but lets see if we can lay the dead patterns to rest.*

The main reason people falsely believe forms have some sort of value is usually listed as "muscle memory". The idea that a move repeated enough times, becomes smoother, or more accessible during an altercation. Repeating a move over and over again in the air will do absolutely nothing for your reflexes or so called 'muscle memory'. In fact, repeating a move or series of moves over and over again in the same pattern and sequence will actually be counter productive to your bodies ability to respond quickly.*

First, there is no TIMING, without a resisting opponent in front of you. Since there is no timing to be had, your reflexes, or response time against a resisting opponent, will not change, increase, or be helped in the least.*

Second, there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be no benefit to your strength, body mechanics, or conditioning. In fact, your body mechanics may become altered in correctly due to the fact that you are not making impact against anything, but merely striking 'air'.*

Thirdly, even when shadowboxing (another comparison morticians like to make when making zombies), you never want to repeat the same series of movements to many times in a row! This is a basic rule all boxing coaches are very familiar with. Go to the well to many times and your opponent becomes 'wise' to your arsenal. An example would be a boxer whom always hooked off the jab. After the second attempt he becomes predictable, and easy to set up for a counter attack or knockout. This is why it's important to make sure your athletes shadowbox fluidly. Watch them to insure that they are NOT repeating the same sequence of movements, in the same order, over and over again.*

One basic difference that can be seen between a JKD Concepts Instructor, and a performance orientated Coach, is the difference in patterns. JKD Concepts Instructors, and indeed most 'traditional' Martial Artists, are consistently looking to learn, memorize, and repeat more and more patterns. A performance orientated Coach is always looking to break patterns, and movements that are repeated in the same order. A Coach should instead be watching his athlete to insure that when shadowboxing, working the heavybag, or any other piece of equipment, that athlete is not always repeating the same route of movements or combinations. This makes a fighter robotic, stiff, predictable, and creates bad habits. There really is no justification for maintaining the antiquated bad methodology of 'form' training.*

What about solo training?*

That's a good question and one I get asked allot. If you are blessed to have enough extra time after working your stand up, clinch and ground games against resisting opponents, then you should be concentrating on conditioning. Endurance training, resistance exercises, and stretching would all rank high on the list. Even reading a book would be a much better use of your time the memorizing and repeating a dead pattern. If you are grossly overweight then you should be working that endurance training daily. If you lack a good muscular physique, then you should be training that correctly in order to avoid energy. There is always plenty for us to be working on!*

Throw all the patterns and forms away. Stay fluid, and stay 'ALIVE'.


Article courtesy of Matt Thornton*

 

[ppko]

My reply:

Lets see if I can't put this as politely as possible, but this last post by you tells me that you either can't come up with something to say or that you only take other peoples oppinions as your own. Kata is important because of what they map out.

PPKO

 

[Kevin Walker]

Hi,

I'm a big believer in kata. I view any practitioner who ridicules kata as missing the point and will always be a mere technician.

Kata preserves the internal integrity of the style you're studying through the ages.

Kata allows one to practice your style alone (except in Judo) and perfect certain techniques.

Kata also allows one to practice very dangerous techniques without injury to your partner.

Kata allows one to get a wicked good workout without randori or kumite or freestyle fighting.

Kata allows one to present a dignified demonstration of your fighting style's techniques to the uninitiated.

Kata can be seen as a form of dynamic meditation equal to yoga for its aerobic quality or superior to yoga in Kata's practical application.

Kata also allows one to perfect the basics of your style, which is the foundation which might save your life one of these days.

It is kata that makes the Eastern martial arts more appealing to me rather than their Western counterparts of boxing, wrestling, or fencing.

 

[ppko]

Hi,

I'm a big believer in kata. I view any practitioner who ridicules kata as missing the point and will always be a mere technician.

Kata preserves the internal integrity of the style you're studying through the ages.

Kata allows one to practice your style alone (except in Judo) and perfect certain techniques.

Kata also allows one to practice very dangerous techniques without injury to your partner.

Kata allows one to get a wicked good workout without randori or kumite or freestyle fighting.

Kata allows one to present a dignified demonstration of your fighting style's techniques to the uninitiated.

Kata can be seen as a form of dynamic meditation equal to yoga for its aerobic quality or superior to yoga in Kata's practical application.

Kata also allows one to perfect the basics of your style, which is the foundation which might save your life one of these days.

It is kata that makes the Eastern martial arts more appealing to me rather than their Western counterparts of boxing, wrestling, or fencing.

Yes you are right on so many levels. Thank you for the post

PPKO

 

[hedgehogey]

Lets see if I can't put this as politely as possible, but this last post by you tells me that you either can't come up with something to say or that you only take other peoples oppinions as your own. Kata is important because of what they map out.

PPKO

So what you're saying, is you have no answer to the points in the article?