what the hell kind of thinking is this

[MJS]

RANT!

My teacher was doing some self-defense seminars for a local high school, which he has been doing for years. But for the first time he enocuntered a group of people who he had never met before.

Normally he tries to get people into the sruvivor mindset like this:
"Imagine a 300 pound hell's angel biker with scras and tatoos all over his face is threatening you. Who wants to rush in and fight with him?"

no one raises their hands

"now imagine that 300 pund man is pounding the person you love most in the face over and over again and then decides he's going to have his way and begins taking his pants off. Who's fighting now?"

almost everyone raises their hands...usually until this day.

Normally my teacher does this to get peole out of victim mentality and get around the fear of injury in order for them to gain the mindset that it is okay to fight back, but this time about 20 people out of 250 said that no matter what they would not jump in to fight off an attacker who was murdering their loved ones.

WHAT!?
They said they didn't want to put themselves at risk and wouldn';t want others to place themselves in danger for another's sake. It makes no sense! I gaurantee that if any of these peope where to face a life threatening situation they would pray with all their might that someone would assit them.

Have any of you met people like this? How can anyone think this way. It's so baffling!

I've met people who seem to be grossed out, for lack of better words, at the thought of doing anything violent in SD. The thought of doing anything such as poking the eyes, biting, etc., makes them sick.

As for the situation you describe above....no, I've never met anyone like that. Now, I could see being cautious about getting involved in a situation with someone they don't know, and speaking for myself, I'm the same way. I would not think twice though about calling the police. Would I jump in and defend someone that I know, yes, I would.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Which one would that be?

Supposedly, just about everyone can feel fear. And fear is known to be an instinct in animals - it provokes a 'fight or flight' reaction. Some humans exhibit similar traits.

So the thought occurs to me that if my fear prompts me to fight, and I do, I'm 'ruled by my fear'. Yes? Same if my fear prompts me to run away and I do that instead. So what is the difference?

All I was trying to point out, gently, was that the term 'coward' is common on MT. And that is a shame. It is now a generic term for 'someone who fails to react or believe in the way I would react or believe'.

I am not a person who could refuse to defend a loved one. I'd do it though it got me killed. But that's me. I also recognize people whose dedication to the principles of non-violence is absolute. I won't characterize their behavior as cowardly. As I pointed out earlier, Jesus Christ was Himself one of those cowards.

I think we're too quick to use that term here. Just my 2 cents.

I think the difference is this....

Situation A: You find yourself in a confrontation. You do your best to talk your way out of it, it doesnt work, you're forced to fight. You fight because there're no other options. ie: you're with your elderly mother who can't run, you can't get to your car because the bad guy is blocking your way.

Situation B: You're at the ATM, someone attempts to mug you. You had over your cash, and pray to God that the badguy leaves. We assume that if we do this, everything will be ok. BG doesnt leave and now wants to take you to another location. THEN you decide to act.

Why not act sooner? The 'coward' term is something that I refered to in another recent post, when I was talking about standing my ground and not bowing down to the bad guys.

For the same reason that you claim:

All I was trying to point out, gently, was that the term 'coward' is common on MT. And that is a shame. It is now a generic term for 'someone who fails to react or believe in the way I would react or believe'.

I could turn that around and say that its a shame that people think that I or anyone else who chooses to standup for themselves is a hot head, an internet tough guy, living a fantasy, etc

 

[MJS]

Fight or Flight only applies to threats of an 'other than human' nature......such as a bear or a tiger......we fight or flee.....our brains are wired that way.

But because we are social animals, Human beings actually have FOUR responses to human-on-human aggression.........they are

Fight
Flight
Posture
Submit

The vast majority of human on human aggression is male hierarchical aggression........not intended to cause death or be predatory, but instead designed to allow a rank male to attain higher social status at the expense of a lower male.

In those situations one male postures and threatens attack......you can see this by the classic school yard chest flexing, and shirt ripping.....one guy strutting like a rooster, and making threats.......and the other male has four choices........Posture back, Submit, Flee or Fight.

Generally he'll choose to posture or submit, sometimes fight.......he may posture back, leading to a show down.......if neither male submits, one will attack........when one male decides he doesn't want to engage in physical violence anymore he will submit.


What we call 'cowardice' is actually a person who has developed the view that Submission is the answer to all their violence problems......and that might be an acceptable view IF all human-on-human violence were hierarchical in nature........but a minority of human-on-human aggression is PREDATORY! Submitting to predatory violence is often suicidal.

One of the best points made so far!!!!

 

[fangjian]

These are cowards.


http://www.nypost.com/seven/04032009/news/regionalnews/my_unending_rape_horror_162724.htm

 

[Sukerkin]

My lord! I wasn't there so I don't want to be judgemental but I hope that in the same circumstances I'd at least inconvenience the attacker with a question or two. Mind you, it does sound like the assailant was by no means in his right mind.

 

[Haze]

20 out of 250? Roughly 8%, not bad at all.

On the positive side 92% would fight to protect others. That's a good percentage.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Or sorry to say Himura, these people could have been unresponsive to your teacher's approach to violent situations.

If you approached me with that kind of scenario, I really wouldn't take you seriously or participate in the hand-raising game just to satisfy some individual's perception on self defense.

I don't believe in placing people in a fear mindset, anyway. Many won't learn that way... At least, not effectively.

When you place an audience's mind in fear, it closes off their ability to positively connect with you. How is that a good teaching method?

My teacher isn't placing them in a fear mindset he is trying to get a point across that while it is often that some people freeze up when defending themselves they jump in to help their families if they are being attacked. It's not about scaring them into action, it is about getting them out of being afriad of being hurt to becoming courageous and fighting for your life. You seem to have missed what I was saying. Most people are very responsive to his program. It is very well done and I am a certified instructor in his S. A. F. E. (safety awareness fundamental education) program. The program is about how to be more aware of the potential dangers around you, what to do when things seem bad, and then what to do if they take a turn for the worse. It's usually a five hour seminar broken down weekly in the schools or done in a single day for certain groups that higher him out like the probation officers or police task force, or the ATF.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I suppose you haven't all over reacted and the truth is there was a bunch of kids there who didn't want to be and weren't going to put their hands up for anything and were going to say anything to annoy the instructor?
Or perhaps they didn't feel they fit into the 'victim' mindset the instructor obviously thought they fitted into and thought they'd ruin his patter.

I would suggest that if 20 people had decided to say this there's more to this than just they don't want to defend their loved ones, I'd say that for whatever reason they wanted to go against what the group were saying. this probably indicates they didn't want to be there.

My shift partners and I were on a first aid course run by a patronising git who talked down to us at every turn so we said we'd leave people to bleed to death and we'd never do CPR etc just to annoy him. When asked what we'd do with someone with a suspected broken leg we said give him a kick to see if it was. The whole class joined in. Childish maybe but he was seriously insulting our intelligence and experience.

Before getting up in arms have a think about why people would say things in a seminar, especially so many people, before deciding they must be cowards etc. I think you'll find there's a much more prosaic reason than that.

No those kind of people are in every seminar he does. The groups that don't want to be there usually offer nothing and don't respond to anything my teacher says, but these people were different. They were responsive most of the time and weren't trying to just be against the groups. They simply couldn't understand whys omeone would want to risk their lives for someone else and even if they were attacked they wouldn't want to fight back because they said it could make it worse. If your attacker is trying to kill you, how can it be worse? What's the worst that could happen if you fight against someone trying to kill you? You die. If it's going to happen either way you might as well put up a fight.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Thanks Gordon, much appreciated.

I have to ask too why on earth would you have 250 people in one seminar? How do you teach SD to that many? How many other instructors were there? I've never been to anyones seminar that had more than 30 people there.

Oh sorry about not being clear, he taught five seminars across the whole day so it was broken up into smaller groups. In one or two of the classes some of the kids were like this.

 

[astrobiologist]

In his book, The End of Faith, Sam Harris put forth a pretty good argument against pacifism using a story about a woman possibly being raped. His opinion was how could you not fight for her? I agree. I will jump in to save another. But just because I think that way doesn't mean others have to as well. I may not agree with what they are thinking, so that means I will have to jump into the fight in their place.

 

[girlbug2]

I am not a person who could refuse to defend a loved one. I'd do it though it got me killed. But that's me. I also recognize people whose dedication to the principles of non-violence is absolute. I won't characterize their behavior as cowardly. As I pointed out earlier, Jesus Christ was Himself one of those cowards.

I think we're too quick to use that term here. Just my 2 cents.

As a fellow christian I disagree that Jesus lived by an absolute code of non-violence. Remember that incident where he stormed through the temple with a whip and overturned the tables of the moneychangers?

Also he did tell his disciples to arm themselves. He was concerned with their safety and wanted them to defend themselves.

There are other mentions throughout the bible that do not prescribe a pacifist view. Painting Jesus as a pacifist is as much an error as painting liberals as cowards. My two cents, for what it's worth.

 

[fangjian]

In his book, The End of Faith, Sam Harris put forth a pretty good argument against pacifism using a story about a woman possibly being raped. His opinion was how could you not fight for her? I agree. I will jump in to save another. But just because I think that way doesn't mean others have to as well. I may not agree with what they are thinking, so that means I will have to jump into the fight in their place.

'But just because I think that way doesn't mean others have to as well.'
If you don't think that way you're wrong

Like those two guys who witnessed the girl in NY in trouble and didn't do anything but notify police. The fact that they called for help says they have a conscience and they did the right thing by doing that, but they should have done more. Nobody is asking for heroes but it is your 'duty' to do 'all that you can'. And I don't think they did all they could have and should have. I'll assume those guys 'froze' in fear.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Nobody is asking for heroes but it is your 'duty' to do 'all that you can'. And I don't think they did all they could have and should have. I'll assume those guys 'froze' in fear.

It is?

Don't get me wrong. I would hope that I would do more in such a situation, but I see little evidence today that individuals are commanded by some sense of duty to look out for their fellows. People on my street won't even clear their ice out of courtesy to elderly pedestrians.

Look at the arguments espoused for concealed carry permits: 'You have to look out for yourself. No one else is going to do it.' This is the bitter harvest of individualism run amok.

 

[CoryKS]

Cowardice isn't the only explanation. Could be apathy. Of the two, I think I'd have more respect for the coward.

 

[Hudson69]

In that given situation it might be a total stranger and I would have to take action if only to separate the two "fighting." As for the 20 or so individuals I understand that there are people out there who will not fight no matter what (I think there really are people out there like that) but should I ever be on the receiving end of such a beating and there were family or friends around me who were capable of helping me then there would be more than the psycho biker who would eventually have to contend with me again and I might lose a friend or ex-communicate a family member as a result.

I was told by a brother how long ago at a bar's parking lot (in Utah) one of his friends mouthed off to a couple of guys (my brother's friends have never been guilty of having too much common sense). There were three including my brother in his group and four in the other. The four guys confronted and started beating on my brothers friend, my brother jumped in the other friend elected to stay in their truck. My brother and his friend got beat up pretty good; I remember it when I was a little kid seeing my brother's face all purple and swollen.

The friend who stayed in the truck never came around after that and to this day I dont think he is ever mentioned but I do not know specifically why but that was the crux of it.

And I am not a big guy or the greatest fighter or the bravest guy in the world but what is right is right no matter how you want to paint someones beliefs; skills or no skills if you are capable then you need to step in.

 

[BLACK LION]

Its called the "COMFORT OF DENIAL"...

people never see "IT" happening to them and when they do or when they witness it happening to someone else, they sit there frozen like they are watching a t.v. episode or a blockbuster movie.

People do not want to give up thier lives or safety for whats righteous and just let alone whats good or decent. They would rather pull the covers over thier heads and pretend its just some magical fantasy ride that will end once the lights come on and the covers are off.

I interdicted a situation recently where a man was hitting a woman in the face while ripping on her purse straps at a bus stop adjacent from a major mall on a busy street here in San Diego. I was driving by and noticed it and at the same time noticed several onlookers doing nothing but star-gazing. I deceided enough was enough and pulled over in the emergency lane in a parking lot next to the bus stop. I left my wife to watch the car and told her to keep and eye out. I approched the man while donning my leather gloves and yelled for him to stop immediately and sit down. He looked at me strange so I closed more distance and commanded him to stop immediately and sit down. He complied. I then told him he better not move and that I was going to stand there and make sure he did not move.He was clearly intoxicated. I waited about 2 minutes all while keeping a 360deg perimeter and making sure my wife was ok. He waited a little bit, then hopped up an palm cupped her ear really hard while yanking her purse strap. I yelled in a stern roar "HEY" wtf did I just tell you and he looked at me with total surprise... I commanded him to walm away or I would "put him down" then I repeated that I would put him down 2 more times.. he began to move but looking back as if he was leaving something behind. I repeatedly roared the command to walk until he was at least a quarter mile away and not looking back at all. I apologized to the woman and helped her up. Her spirit and her leather purse were broken but she was ok. By that time my wife was behind me to help the woman. We suggested she walk the other way and if that was her boyfriend then she needs to throw him out or throw him in jail. She walked the other way and we drove around a few times to make sure he didnt come back.

I didnt have to escalate into force even though I could have left him there for the paramedics and drove away like nothing ever happened. The knowledge and ability to injure or kill affords you the opportunity to control the situation. I understood that it was not the time nor the place to use force or violence so it was diffused through aggressive negotiation.

Everyone went home and slept in thier own bed that night. I can live with that.

 

[Stac3y]

In that given situation it might be a total stranger and I would have to take action if only to separate the two "fighting." As for the 20 or so individuals I understand that there are people out there who will not fight no matter what (I think there really are people out there like that) but should I ever be on the receiving end of such a beating and there were family or friends around me who were capable of helping me then there would be more than the psycho biker who would eventually have to contend with me again and I might lose a friend or ex-communicate a family member as a result.

I was told by a brother how long ago at a bar's parking lot (in Utah) one of his friends mouthed off to a couple of guys (my brother's friends have never been guilty of having too much common sense). There were three including my brother in his group and four in the other. The four guys confronted and started beating on my brothers friend, my brother jumped in the other friend elected to stay in their truck. My brother and his friend got beat up pretty good; I remember it when I was a little kid seeing my brother's face all purple and swollen.

The friend who stayed in the truck never came around after that and to this day I dont think he is ever mentioned but I do not know specifically why but that was the crux of it.

And I am not a big guy or the greatest fighter or the bravest guy in the world but what is right is right no matter how you want to paint someones beliefs; skills or no skills if you are capable then you need to step in.

I think this differs greatly from the OP's example. I think most decent people (pacifists excepted, though I must mention that my husband claims to be one, and if he saw someone try to rape me, that person would be in tiny pieces) would step in in the original example. When you're out with friends and those friends provoke a fight (not saying this is definitely what happened, but from the limited description, it sounds likely to me), I don't think it's wrong to stay the heck out of it. And it may be that the friend in the truck stayed away thereafter because he was smart enough to know that it can be very dangerous to hang around with people who mouth off to others in bar parking lots.

There's a story in Funakoshi's Twenty Guiding Principles of Karate that addresses this (sort of). Loosely paraphrased, a master has two students that are considered to be likely inheritors of his school. He observes one student walk down the street and pass close to a fractious horse, which kicks out at him. The student neatly evades the kick and blocks it, then continues without a hair out of place. Later, the other student walks down the same street, where the same fractious horse is tethered. Rather than walk close by the horse, this student crosses the street, avoiding aggravating the horse further. The master dismisses the first student from the school and names the second student his heir, saying that anyone with the poor judgement to walk behind a fractious horse rather than avoiding the problem by giving the horse a wide berth is not fit to train his students.

Or in my North Louisiana rustic grandpa's words, "Mouthing off to drunks in a bar parking lot is what I call dumbing yourself to death."

Just my 12.5 cents.

 

[fangjian]

Its called the "COMFORT OF DENIAL"...

people never see "IT" happening to them and when they do or when they witness it happening to someone else, they sit there frozen like they are watching a t.v. episode or a blockbuster movie.

People do not want to give up thier lives or safety for whats righteous and just let alone whats good or decent. They would rather pull the covers over thier heads and pretend its just some magical fantasy ride that will end once the lights come on and the covers are off.

I interdicted a situation recently where a man was hitting a woman in the face while ripping on her purse straps at a bus stop adjacent from a major mall on a busy street here in San Diego. I was driving by and noticed it and at the same time noticed several onlookers doing nothing but star-gazing. I deceided enough was enough and pulled over in the emergency lane in a parking lot next to the bus stop. I left my wife to watch the car and told her to keep and eye out. I approched the man while donning my leather gloves and yelled for him to stop immediately and sit down. He looked at me strange so I closed more distance and commanded him to stop immediately and sit down. He complied. I then told him he better not move and that I was going to stand there and make sure he did not move.He was clearly intoxicated. I waited about 2 minutes all while keeping a 360deg perimeter and making sure my wife was ok. He waited a little bit, then hopped up an palm cupped her ear really hard while yanking her purse strap. I yelled in a stern roar "HEY" wtf did I just tell you and he looked at me with total surprise... I commanded him to walm away or I would "put him down" then I repeated that I would put him down 2 more times.. he began to move but looking back as if he was leaving something behind. I repeatedly roared the command to walk until he was at least a quarter mile away and not looking back at all. I apologized to the woman and helped her up. Her spirit and her leather purse were broken but she was ok. By that time my wife was behind me to help the woman. We suggested she walk the other way and if that was her boyfriend then she needs to throw him out or throw him in jail. She walked the other way and we drove around a few times to make sure he didnt come back.

I didnt have to escalate into force even though I could have left him there for the paramedics and drove away like nothing ever happened. The knowledge and ability to injure or kill affords you the opportunity to control the situation. I understood that it was not the time nor the place to use force or violence so it was diffused through aggressive negotiation.

Everyone went home and slept in thier own bed that night. I can live with that.

That's awesome man. Good job for helping her.

 

[Touch Of Death]

RANT!

My teacher was doing some self-defense seminars for a local high school, which he has been doing for years. But for the first time he enocuntered a group of people who he had never met before.

Normally he tries to get people into the sruvivor mindset like this:
"Imagine a 300 pound hell's angel biker with scras and tatoos all over his face is threatening you. Who wants to rush in and fight with him?"

no one raises their hands

"now imagine that 300 pund man is pounding the person you love most in the face over and over again and then decides he's going to have his way and begins taking his pants off. Who's fighting now?"

almost everyone raises their hands...usually until this day.

Normally my teacher does this to get peole out of victim mentality and get around the fear of injury in order for them to gain the mindset that it is okay to fight back, but this time about 20 people out of 250 said that no matter what they would not jump in to fight off an attacker who was murdering their loved ones.

WHAT!?
They said they didn't want to put themselves at risk and wouldn';t want others to place themselves in danger for another's sake. It makes no sense! I gaurantee that if any of these peope where to face a life threatening situation they would pray with all their might that someone would assit them.

Have any of you met people like this? How can anyone think this way. It's so baffling!

They have lived sheltered lives.
Sean

 

[ArmorOfGod]

In this country they are called Hippies.

Or Democrats.

Your choice.

Seriously, did he really just type that?
Either he was trying to be witty or is full of hate and prejeduce.
Oh, well. It takes all types--even bad ones.

AoG