What Makes Someone Worthy Of A High Dan?

[MJS]

No reason in particular, just tossing this out for discussion. I know many times, people have commented how much 'red' is out there, whether or not someone is really deserving of it, etc.

So, in your opinions, what do you feel makes someone worthy of say a 6th and above? Should there be a test, should it be more of what you've given back?

 

[Thesemindz]

No reason in particular, just tossing this out for discussion. I know many times, people have commented how much 'red' is out there, whether or not someone is really deserving of it, etc.

So, in your opinions, what do you feel makes someone worthy of say a 6th and above? Should there be a test, should it be more of what you've given back?

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable without some kind of test. But that can take many forms. It could be a combination of written and physical demonstration of knowledge and skill. It could take place over a length of time, or take into account a body of work. It could be from a higher ranked instructor, or a board of instructors, or acknowledge Masters in the martial arts from the same style or other styles.

I'm nowhere near worrying about this for myself. I may never be. I imagine it would take at least twenty years of dilligent training under a Master instructor to even begin to explore these issues, which I haven't come close to, and as many as fifty years or more to truly become a Master one's self. Maybe I'm way off, but that's how I see it.

I know that it's pure presumption for me to say what makes someone else's rank legitimate or worthy. The only rank I can be concerned with is mine and what it means to me. So for me, I'd have to be acknowledged by higher ranking artists that I respected. Just like every other rank. The form that the "test" I had to undergo to recieve that acknowledgment could be anything, the end result is the same.

I couldn't just sew some red ribbon onto my belt. I wouldn't feel right about that. At least not where and who I am now. Maybe in the event of the death of a Grandmaster, or the death of a ryu, or the true inspiration of a new method or style a teacher could someday come to that place. I wouldn't know. I haven't gotten there yet.

In the end, rank should only mean something to the person who's wearing it. They sweat and bled for it. 1st degree, 10th degree, the black belt gets you in the door. Once you're there, everybody knows where everybody stands. I don't need to see red to see a Master.


-Rob

 

[Twin Fist]

the following in just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth

No one should be promoted above 4th dan based on skill alone.

Promotion to 5th dan must require them to at least run thier own school and have at least one student promoted to black belt taught entirely by them

7th dan should have 2 generations of black belts under them

8th 3 generations

9th 4 generations of black belts

 

[Thesemindz]

Interesting. I never thought of it that way. So you believe that high rank equals longevity as an instructor, and nothing else? What about practitioners who only seek to study, but can't or don't teach? They can continue to improve but not advance? What about great instructors who's students never succeed as teachers, or who's student's students never succeed, maybe because they can't own schools of their own due to their own lives or desires? Should the first generation be punished for failing to seed the third generation of instructors?

I'm not attacking you, I'm just curious. This is an interesting concept to me that I hadn't previously considered. I'm intrigued.


-Rob

 

[Twin Fist]

Rob, in my world, skill tops out at around 4th dan. Maybe 5th

if someone NEVER teaches? not even in my school?

they will top out at 1st dan.

In my world, a BB means can do and can teach.

if they dont want a school of their own but teach under me? they top out at 4th dan.

thats where skill stops and true mastery starts, and you cant be a master IMO if you dont TEACH

 

[Thesemindz]

Rob, in my world, skill tops out at around 4th dan. Maybe 5th

if someone NEVER teaches? not even in my school?

they will top out at 1st dan.

In my world, a BB means can do and can teach.

if they dont want a school of their own but teach under me? they top out at 4th dan.

thats where skill stops and true mastery starts, and you cant be a master IMO if you dont TEACH

I actually agree with that position. I try to raise all my students to be instructors of the art, and express to them the importance of learning from teaching. But I also recognize that not all of them will go on to teach, and those that do may not go on to have students who perpetuate the art. So I wonder how that would influence my opinion of a student who had trained on their own for forty or fifty years without teaching or starting their own lineages. Would there be a difference between a first year fourth degree and a twenty year fourth degree, even without teaching experience? Wouldn't the development of skill alone transcend what would be appropriate for a fourth degree at some point?

This is all purely intellectual for me of course. I don't even have black belt students of my own right now, and I've never taken a student all the from white to black. I hope someday to take one. I feel I owe it to my ancestors. I don't have twenty years in the arts, or any fourth degree black belt students, much less any fourth degree black belt students who've held that rank for twenty years. I'm just imagining, and wondering.

I agree that instruction is the only path to mastery. I can't imagine a student who trained under the best Masters for fifty years but never taught a class ever understanding as much as the same student who taught his juniors from his second class. Even demonstrating a kick or helping with a drill or pointing out where you struggle with this technique helps your training partners, and that process is what builds true understanding. I never learn so much so fast as when I'm teaching.

In truth, it's probably academic. How many students would ever train that far without becoming instructors in some fashion?


-Rob

 

[Touch Of Death]

the following in just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth

No one should be promoted above 4th dan based on skill alone.

Promotion to 5th dan must require them to at least run thier own school and have at least one student promoted to black belt taught entirely by them

7th dan should have 2 generations of black belts under them

8th 3 generations

9th 4 generations of black belts

While I can't disagree, it is sad somehow that rank should be about business.
Sean

 

[Carol]

I like Twin Fist's idea a lot. The best way to give back to the art is to teach....whether a person is on the mat 6-7 days a week at a large commercial school, or whether a person teaches class after church, there is still the ongoing commitment to one's students.

Something I want to throw out for discussion. A 20 year old 5th dan might raise eyebrows in a way a 50 year old 5th dan would not. Should there be a minimum age for such a rank? Or would teaching on one's own, and promoting a student entirely from white to black suffice?

 

[Twin Fist]

not about business at all

it is about teaching the art to others

knowledge not passed on is wasted

 

[Twin Fist]

Should there be a minimum age for such a rank? Or would teaching on one's own, and promoting a student entirely from white to black suffice?

NO DAN RANKS Below 16

EVER

so, using the rank = years between belts rule:

1st Dan 16
2nd Dan 18
3rd Dan 21
4th Dan 25
5th Dan 30
6th Dan 36
7th Dan 43
8th Dan 51
9th Dan 60
10th Dan 70

 

[Carol]

Should the first generation be punished for failing to seed the third generation of instructors?

Well...to be nit picky...is not being able to advance in rank a punishment, or cause for shame? I don't necessarily think it is.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well...to be nit picky...is not being able to advance in rank a punishment, or cause for shame? I don't necessarily think it is.

This means big city martial artist get high rank, and small town idaho people get nothin' above 4th. It just doesn't seem right.
Sean

 

[Twin Fist]

i am in a small town, i found students

 

[Thesemindz]

not about business at all

it is about teaching the art to others

knowledge not passed on is wasted

I don't totally agree with that. I think a person has every right to pursue knowledge for his own selfish uses. But personally I think I would be doing my instructors a disservice if I didn't pass on the art. That's how martial arts are taught. Hand to hand. Instructor to student. If I broke that chain I'd feel like I had failed.

But I've also already taught plenty of karate classes to say that I've passed on the knowledge. I've passed it on to hundreds of people. I don't feel like a person would have to be a victim to that obligation if they didn't choose it. I don't believe in unchosen obligations. Of course you'd have every right not to associate with such a person.

I teach to honor the tradition and the instructors who came before me. I would not have found the Way without teachers. So I teach. For others. And in a very selfish way for myself because it makes me better.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

Well...to be nit picky...is not being able to advance in rank a punishment, or cause for shame? I don't necessarily think it is.

Not necessarily, but I certainly think it could be. Especially if an instructor had done everything else in good faith required to progress in rank, including paying for his own instruction, and the only thing that kept him from advancing was his student's student's choices.


-Rob

 

[Carol]

Not necessarily, but I certainly think it could be. Especially if an instructor had done everything else in good faith required to progress in rank, including paying for his own instruction, and the only thing that kept him from advancing was his student's student's choices.


-Rob

Good point. I don't think "good faith" is sufficient, IMO. Personally I think this is something the student should know as part of a "here's how we do things" chat before the student even sign on the bottom line on Day 1.

 

[Big Don]

My sifu bases Black Belt promotions on Time in Grade, 4 to 5 years between ranks.
In order to be eligible, one must continue to be a student, expanding his/her knowledge, continue to teach, expanding both his knowledge and that of others, and attend the 3 seminars we have with Sifu Planas each year.

 

[Nomad]

I've been told on multiple occasions that you can get up to 5th Dan based on what you can take from the system (technique & physical improvements, increased knowledge, time in rank, etc), and that ranks above 5th Dan are earned based on what you give back to the art (including teaching, running your own school, spreading the art, and so on).

Personally, this makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[yorkshirelad]

All the ideas mentioned good, but there will never be a standard in the martial arts community as a whole.
We are here in the Kenpo room so let's use Kenpo as an example. I heard that there was a 'time in' requirement in EPAK at one time, two years betwwen first and second, three years between second and third ect, but this was vary rarely used. How could speakman, as a Lou Angel Black Belt go from nothing in Kenpo to fourth degree in four years? Because Mr. Parker was Kenpo and if he said Speakman was four, he was fourth. Jim Mitchell cross ranked to fifth degree from having a fourth in Tracy Kenpo. Was his rank legitimate? Yes. Why? Because Mr. Parker willed it.
This seems fair to me. Mr. Parker was so respected and established that he judged the standard of each person's rank and the results were accepted as law. When he died, without leaving an heir, rank became an issue, because each of the seniors had a different view of how rank should be attained. Some just wanted others to join their associations so gave them higher rank as an incentive, so we had the rank chasers, who bounced from one association to the other, collecting rank along the way.
Rank in most Martial arts has been awarded for all manner of reasons. How would Tohie Sensei go from nothing to seventh Dan in two years? Because Ueshiba willed it, and because of this it was accepted without question. How could Hatsumi go from nothing to soke of eight koryu in fifteen years, when he was training with Takamatsu every couple of month? Because takamatsu willed it!
I've heard that Professor Chow would award high ranks to some people with days or weeks of meeting them. Were these people's ranks legitimate? Yes, because Mr. chow said so.
We've gone so far now without real quality control that, that it would be almost impossible to impose a standard on the Kenpo community as a whole. I say, just train with an instrutor that you trust, and train for enjoyment. If you're happy in your training, everything alse is just fluff.

 

[Sensei Payne]

High Ranking really starts counting as time in, and time served.

For example. Oyata in my opinion deserves the 10th Dan in the Ryute group, because he has dedicated his entire adult life to the art.
-Started an organization
-Trained with the "old masters"
-through his art, he has brought thousands to Martial Arts (including myself)


In order for someone to be granted the highest rank IMO they should be dead/dying/or in the twilight of there life and we/they can reflect on all achivements. So that they can be acknowledged and admired