Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
Hey Chris, if you guys can't get rank past 5th what happens after you reach that rank? Do you go train somewhere else?
High Ranking
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Probably the same as in any organization after you reach the end of ranks. You just keep on training.
I would be curious as to the time in grade, however. Is shodan typically after four years or more? How long in each dan grade thereafter?
Daniel
In SKK its about
5-6 years for shodan
2 more for Nidan (2 for me) 2001
3 more for Sandan (9 years for me) 2010
3 more for Yodan
5 more for Godan
after that It can be 5-10 years between Dan ranks...
to sum it up after 5th there is not much more "new" material
the 6th-10th Dan ranks are awarded for time in rank and contribution to the art.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi Himura,
After you reach 5th Dan, you have "topped out" as far as rank is concerned, from there it's just continual polishing, getting your own students up in skill and understanding, and so forth. There is really no reason to go to anyone else for rank, or for training (unless our schools closed, really).
As I've said, the only way to really judge a rank is within the same organisation, so the only way to compare my rank is with other members of my schools. I occasionally joke that, as we only go up to 5th Dan, and I'm 3rd, it means that I'm the equivalent of a Bujinkan 10th Dan.... two thirds of the way to their 15th! But that is not a realistic comparison either, honestly.
There isn't any specific "time in grade" concept, it's more about your own personal development and skill set. I've been involved since 1993, the instructor who runs Sydney has been involved since 1986, and is a 5th Dan.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Hey chris, do you guys have classes up here in QLD?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
My Chief Instructor is based in Brisbane. There's some upheaval with the floods at present, though.
For our locations, check the link in my signature.
For our locations, check the link in my signature.
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
Hey sorry, my instructor and I had a chat about it and I think I explained myself pretty poorly here. I didn't laugh at the 14 year old practitioner at all. I laughed at my friend who was trying to convince me it was a KoryU TKD school. I made sure to ask if she meant Koryo and she assured me no, it was a couple of hundred years old so it was Koryu. My friend is 27 and (at least claims) to spend a lot of her time learning about other cultures and history etc so this was to me at least hilarious. Also apologies to anyone if I offended your ranking system (TKD wise), I was not aware of the Poom grades and was told specifically that it was a 2nd Dan Black Belt - no caveats or explanations. This last bit came from the student's instructor directly. At no point did I interact with the student in question.
Your friend is unaware of the history of taekwondo and is also overlaying JMA terminology onto a postwar Korean art.
I wasn't offended.
But a word about pum grades:Not all TKD orgs use pum grades. The only organization that I know of that uses them in an official, accross the board way, is the Kukkiwon. Individual schools of other orgs or independent of any org may have adopted the use of pum grades within the school, but so far as I know, the pum is a Kukkiwon grade that does not correspond directly with the 'junior blackbelt' rank that many schools use.
The pum grrades are multitiered up to fourth pum and are age specific and require no testing or special promotion. They are either convered to a dan grade upon the child turning fifteen and the instructor filing the appropriate paperwork, or their next degree test after they turn fifteen will be for a dan. Pum holders do not go through pum grades and then start at first dan either. If I am fourteen and a second pum, then test for third when I'm sixteen, I will receive a third dan.
Also, not all pum grades are for kids under fifteen. Third pum candidates must be at least fifteen. Fourth dan candidates must be at least twenty one years of age, so a fourth pum exists for students who are eighteen and who are ready to test for fourth based upon time in grade.
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp
So the idea of a seventeen year old fourth dan in Kukki taekwondo is a myth, though most westerners will simply call a fourth pum a fourth degree. Since there is not, to my knowldege, any requirement on the part of the KKW that pum grade students wear a pum dobok and a pum belt, the issue is further confused to those looking in from the outside.
Daniel
OP
- Thread Starter
- #49
Are you asking in general or specifically for what Chris does? I'll give you my thoughts...I'd say nobody under 16 gets a BB. Approx 4-5yrs for BB. After 1st degree, use the number of years according to whatever degree they're going for. Ex: 1-2=2yrs. 2nd-3rd=3yrs.
Of course, this should all be ultimately up to the inst. and all subject to change. If the inst feels that a student needs more time, thats their discretion.
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
Your friend is unaware of the history of taekwondo and is also overlaying JMA terminology onto a postwar Korean art.
I wasn't offended.
Not all TKD orgs use pum grades. The only organization that I know of that uses them in an official, accross the board way, is the Kukkiwon. Individual schools of other orgs or independent of any org may have adopted the use of pum grades within the school, but so far as I know, the pum is a Kukkiwon grade that does not correspond directly with the 'junior blackbelt' rank that many schools use.
The pum grrades are multitiered up to fourth pum and are age specific and require no testing or special promotion. They are either convered to a dan grade upon the child turning fifteen and the instructor filing the appropriate paperwork, or their next degree test after they turn fifteen will be for a dan. Pum holders do not go through pum grades and then start at first dan either. If I am fourteen and a second pum, then test for third when I'm sixteen, I will receive a third dan.
Also, not all pum grades are for kids under fifteen. Third pum candidates must be at least fifteen. Fourth dan candidates must be at least twenty one years of age, so a fourth pum exists for students who are eighteen and who are ready to test for fourth based upon time in grade.
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp
So the idea of a seventeen year old fourth dan in Kukki taekwondo is a myth, though most westerners will simply call a fourth pum a fourth degree. Since there is not, to my knowldege, any requirement on the part of the KKW that pum grade students wear a pum dobok and a pum belt, the issue is further confused to those looking in from the outside.
Daniel
Thanks Dan! Very informative post and just a tiiiny bit confusing lol... I eventually got my head around it though
Most likely didn't help that I was reading it on my phone on a packed train while half asleep. I thought JMA's were complicated with their history and politics etc!
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
In our school you have to be 18 to even sign up to start. Exceptions have been made for someone as young as 16 but that's the youngest I know of. To Shodan it really depends on the student as far as I can tell. At least 4 - 5 years would be a good sort of time frame to expect IMO and then as Mr. Parker said Dan grades are based more on student's skill and maturity/commitment rather than on time in grade. That being said, I'd say it's a given that you couldn't expect to grade up to Nidan or beyond without spending some serious time internalizing the material. Esp given that we only have a max of 5 Dan's it's all very relative so that doesn't help in the slightest.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #53
Nice!
IMO, if I had a school, thats the way that I'd do it. I would probably let them start as young as 12, that way they'd at least be 16, if not older, before BB. Yes, I know in some places, kids are the bread and butter of the school owner, but there are cases when you can afford to be choosey as to who you allow to train.
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
Nice!
Mr. Parker would be the best person to respond to that of course but with us, it's not so much a case of being choosey as pragmatic (at least that's what I got from it). With Ninjutsu or at least the way we train it, it's quite intense and we would really rather not teach a 12 or 13 year old how to break someone's knee which they may use in a school yard fight. It's more the belief (read hope) that at 18 someone will have the maturity and discretion to know when to use certain things and an understanding of what's appropriate.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yeah, that's pretty much it. What I am looking for in a potential student is the maturity to handle what I'm giving them.
For example, taking our weaponry training, this month we are looking at Hanbojutsu (three foot staff) from one of the Kukishin Ryu branches, and we are looking at the use of the weapon against unarmed opponents. This is to get a sense of appropriate distancing when using a weapon as opposed to simply unarmed. However, the targets presented in the traditional forms are bone-breaking ones, and giving a 10 year old skills in that approach to damaging another person, and sending them out into a schoolyard just isn't something I want to do. On the other hand, I'm not about to change or dilute what I teach to cater for young students that wouldn't be suitable to get the actual art itself. Next month is using a knife against another knife, focusing on cutting particular targets to immediately end a confrontation.... again, not something I'll give a 10 year old.
For example, taking our weaponry training, this month we are looking at Hanbojutsu (three foot staff) from one of the Kukishin Ryu branches, and we are looking at the use of the weapon against unarmed opponents. This is to get a sense of appropriate distancing when using a weapon as opposed to simply unarmed. However, the targets presented in the traditional forms are bone-breaking ones, and giving a 10 year old skills in that approach to damaging another person, and sending them out into a schoolyard just isn't something I want to do. On the other hand, I'm not about to change or dilute what I teach to cater for young students that wouldn't be suitable to get the actual art itself. Next month is using a knife against another knife, focusing on cutting particular targets to immediately end a confrontation.... again, not something I'll give a 10 year old.
Blade96
Senior Master
what seasoned and ralph said, because i can see it in my own 6th dan senseis that they should be 7 and higher when the time comes cause of what they know and how they act and such.
The comment 'can see the potential black belt in the little white belt' stuck out for me, because when people in my dojo got their certificates for being promoted to several shades of black belt, we all shook their hands. as we were going through the lineup, sensei called my name: "Jacklyn" he said. " Oss?" i responded. "You'll be up here one day" sensei said. (I was the lowest rank there that night.) I was and still am for now only a little yellow belt!
The comment 'can see the potential black belt in the little white belt' stuck out for me, because when people in my dojo got their certificates for being promoted to several shades of black belt, we all shook their hands. as we were going through the lineup, sensei called my name: "Jacklyn" he said. " Oss?" i responded. "You'll be up here one day" sensei said. (I was the lowest rank there that night.) I was and still am for now only a little yellow belt!
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
If a person trains in an organization where the the highest ranking member dies before he can promote the next people, should those people next in promote themselves?
For example, let's say a teacher is a 7th dan, but he knows the material through 9th. If his teacher who is say 10th dan dies and there is no one left in the organization than this 7th dan, should he automatically assume the top position if he has all the material or should the organization now have 7th dan as the highest ranked level and just teach the material that comes after without awarding any rank to it?
For example, let's say a teacher is a 7th dan, but he knows the material through 9th. If his teacher who is say 10th dan dies and there is no one left in the organization than this 7th dan, should he automatically assume the top position if he has all the material or should the organization now have 7th dan as the highest ranked level and just teach the material that comes after without awarding any rank to it?
It would have to be a fairly small organization to have nothing between seventh and tenth.
Probably depends on how the organizations bylaws are set up. If being tenth dan equals sokeship, and you become the soke, then by the bylaws, you'd become tenth dan upon taking the reins.
If the head in question was a founder, it is entirely possible that nobody will be tenth dan out of respect for the founder.
Chances are, if it is an organization, there are at least a few officers. Assuming smooth transition, they could certainly vote in a new head and sign off on the new head being tenth (it is their organization).
Daniel
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Just to clear up a few things here, 10th Dan in no way, shape, or form equals Sokeship. At all. Tenth Dan equals the tenth level of ranking within a particular organisation's ranking structure (which changes from art to art, group to group, with some groups/arts it's the highest level you can achieve, with others there are a few levels above it, with a couple it is only ever awarded post-humously, and some others don't even have that many ranking level distinctions).
Soke, on the other hand, is not a rank at all. It literally refers to the Head of the Family, and is seen as the source and embodiment of the Ryu itself. Essentially, the Ryu is whatever the Soke says it is. This title is inherited from the previous generation Soke only, and is never "awarded", and certainly never applied to yourself (in other words, you don't "declare", or name yourself Soke). This person is chosen differently in different systems, but the guiding rule is that they are chosen to continue the Ryu on, staying true to the ideals and principles of the system itself. In many cases it is a hereditary title (such as the Katori Shinto Ryu, the Kashima Shinryu, and others), in others it isn't (such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, and others).
As said, Soke is not a rank. It is a position outside of ranking. The Soke position isn't even necessarily held by the best, or most experienced practitioner, or even necessarily a practitioner at all (especially when dealing with those who pass the title along hereditary lines - the current Soke of Katori Shinto Ryu is a non-practitioner, due to various reasons). The highest licencing level (rank) is typically Menkyo Kaiden (licence of full mastery), but even stating that that is equivalent to 10th Dan is not correct.
The two methods of ranking (Kyu/Dan, popularised by Kano Jigoro, and taken from the game of Go, mainly so when he travelled around to locations across Japan to teach, and didn't know the experience level of those in attendance, he could look at their belt and have an idea of what level they are at, and the Menkyo system of licencing which includes titles such as Shihan, Kyoshi, Renshi, and Soke) are completely seperate. Most typically an organisation will use one or the other, but a few do use both. That should not be taken as seeing them as equivalent, however.
So, if an organisation awards 10th Dan rankings, and that is the top-out point for that art, you can theoretically have multiple 10th Dan's, but you cannot have multiple Soke. You can have multiple Menkyo Kaiden holders, though (although some systems have restrictions even on that, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu traditionally awards only three per generation), so for the sake of argument, we may take both 10th Dan and Menkyo as roughly similar.
Now, if an organisation has all it's higher level members leave, or pass on, leaving only the lower ranked members there, I'd suggest that the highest rank becomes the new highest rank. That certainly is the case in the case of Menkyo ranking systems, at least. When it comes to Dan ranks, though, I have seen cases where the highest ranking members become a kind of "ranking board", setting up their own methods of deciding on ranks and voting to promote within themselves. That can happen in Dan ranking, but not in the Menkyo ranking system, which is one reason that they really can't be seen as equivalent.
To answer Himura's question, most typically there is no new material beyond about 4th or 5th Dan in most systems, so there wouldn't be a case of "knowing the material through to 9th Dan" in the first place. Within the Menkyo system, though, there is new material at each level (one reason Menkyo Kaiden is considered "full" mastership/licencing, before you achieve that you haven't covered everything the system has to offer... for instance, Shinto Muso Ryu Jo has a set of 5 kata that are only taught to Menkyo Kaiden holders, and being taught them is how you get awarded that rank/licence. Before that you have a Menkyo ranking, once you are taught the five kata, you have that licence stamped, and it becomes your Menkyo Kaiden licence). So if it is a more traditional Menkyo licencing system, if you haven't been taught the material, you haven't been taught it, and therefore cannot teach or licence in it. And if you have been taught it (and by that I mean actually been taught it, and learnt it properly, rather than been shown it once or twice), then you would be the higher rank by definition anyway, so it becomes a moot point. Incidentally, one of the reasons Kano Jigoro developed his Kano-ha Jujutsu (later called Kodokan Judo) was that he didn't recieve Menkyo Kaiden in the Ryu-ha he studied, so he couldn't teach them. I'm not going into why he didn't achieve Menkyo Kaiden here though....
So Dan grades can be awarded by a qualified peer group at the upper levels, but older Menkyo licences require someone who has already achieved that level or higher to award them, you really can't get around it.
Hmm, that rambled a bit....
Soke, on the other hand, is not a rank at all. It literally refers to the Head of the Family, and is seen as the source and embodiment of the Ryu itself. Essentially, the Ryu is whatever the Soke says it is. This title is inherited from the previous generation Soke only, and is never "awarded", and certainly never applied to yourself (in other words, you don't "declare", or name yourself Soke). This person is chosen differently in different systems, but the guiding rule is that they are chosen to continue the Ryu on, staying true to the ideals and principles of the system itself. In many cases it is a hereditary title (such as the Katori Shinto Ryu, the Kashima Shinryu, and others), in others it isn't (such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, and others).
As said, Soke is not a rank. It is a position outside of ranking. The Soke position isn't even necessarily held by the best, or most experienced practitioner, or even necessarily a practitioner at all (especially when dealing with those who pass the title along hereditary lines - the current Soke of Katori Shinto Ryu is a non-practitioner, due to various reasons). The highest licencing level (rank) is typically Menkyo Kaiden (licence of full mastery), but even stating that that is equivalent to 10th Dan is not correct.
The two methods of ranking (Kyu/Dan, popularised by Kano Jigoro, and taken from the game of Go, mainly so when he travelled around to locations across Japan to teach, and didn't know the experience level of those in attendance, he could look at their belt and have an idea of what level they are at, and the Menkyo system of licencing which includes titles such as Shihan, Kyoshi, Renshi, and Soke) are completely seperate. Most typically an organisation will use one or the other, but a few do use both. That should not be taken as seeing them as equivalent, however.
So, if an organisation awards 10th Dan rankings, and that is the top-out point for that art, you can theoretically have multiple 10th Dan's, but you cannot have multiple Soke. You can have multiple Menkyo Kaiden holders, though (although some systems have restrictions even on that, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu traditionally awards only three per generation), so for the sake of argument, we may take both 10th Dan and Menkyo as roughly similar.
Now, if an organisation has all it's higher level members leave, or pass on, leaving only the lower ranked members there, I'd suggest that the highest rank becomes the new highest rank. That certainly is the case in the case of Menkyo ranking systems, at least. When it comes to Dan ranks, though, I have seen cases where the highest ranking members become a kind of "ranking board", setting up their own methods of deciding on ranks and voting to promote within themselves. That can happen in Dan ranking, but not in the Menkyo ranking system, which is one reason that they really can't be seen as equivalent.
To answer Himura's question, most typically there is no new material beyond about 4th or 5th Dan in most systems, so there wouldn't be a case of "knowing the material through to 9th Dan" in the first place. Within the Menkyo system, though, there is new material at each level (one reason Menkyo Kaiden is considered "full" mastership/licencing, before you achieve that you haven't covered everything the system has to offer... for instance, Shinto Muso Ryu Jo has a set of 5 kata that are only taught to Menkyo Kaiden holders, and being taught them is how you get awarded that rank/licence. Before that you have a Menkyo ranking, once you are taught the five kata, you have that licence stamped, and it becomes your Menkyo Kaiden licence). So if it is a more traditional Menkyo licencing system, if you haven't been taught the material, you haven't been taught it, and therefore cannot teach or licence in it. And if you have been taught it (and by that I mean actually been taught it, and learnt it properly, rather than been shown it once or twice), then you would be the higher rank by definition anyway, so it becomes a moot point. Incidentally, one of the reasons Kano Jigoro developed his Kano-ha Jujutsu (later called Kodokan Judo) was that he didn't recieve Menkyo Kaiden in the Ryu-ha he studied, so he couldn't teach them. I'm not going into why he didn't achieve Menkyo Kaiden here though....
So Dan grades can be awarded by a qualified peer group at the upper levels, but older Menkyo licences require someone who has already achieved that level or higher to award them, you really can't get around it.
Hmm, that rambled a bit....
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2009
- Messages
- 3,399
- Reaction score
- 74
The best description I've seen of the term 'Soke' is 'copyright holder'.
The soke is the one with the authority to sign / approve licensing certificates in the name of the original ryu.
In the example of Katori Shinto Ryu, it doesn't matter that the soke is not a practicioner. He is the designated authority who can grant menkyo kaiden in Katori Shinto Ryu. The person receiving it will have had his training, incl kuden, from a menkyo kaiden holder. But when he has received a full transmission, the soke needs to approve it.
The top shihan is the one in charge of the training, and he could also award menkyo kaiden, but only in his own name, starting a new branch. He cannot grant menkyo kaiden in the main tree. This way, the shihan and soke need each other. Without the shihan, soke cannot continue the lineage because the main tree will die. Without the soke, the shihan cannot train and license people under the name of the main tree.
The title 'soke' does not have anything to do with ability or grade.
The soke is the one with the authority to sign / approve licensing certificates in the name of the original ryu.
In the example of Katori Shinto Ryu, it doesn't matter that the soke is not a practicioner. He is the designated authority who can grant menkyo kaiden in Katori Shinto Ryu. The person receiving it will have had his training, incl kuden, from a menkyo kaiden holder. But when he has received a full transmission, the soke needs to approve it.
The top shihan is the one in charge of the training, and he could also award menkyo kaiden, but only in his own name, starting a new branch. He cannot grant menkyo kaiden in the main tree. This way, the shihan and soke need each other. Without the shihan, soke cannot continue the lineage because the main tree will die. Without the soke, the shihan cannot train and license people under the name of the main tree.
The title 'soke' does not have anything to do with ability or grade.
