Rank From Outside Your Art

[MJS]

What are your thoughts on getting rank from someone outside of your main art? In other words, here is a hypothetical situation. Lets say you're ranked a 5th in Parker Kenpo. Something happens to your instructor, you leave the org. ,etc. Next time someone sees you, you're walking around with a 6th on your waist. When questioned, you state that you got your rank from someone outside of the art of Kenpo altogether or you received it from a different branch of Kenpo, ie: Tracy.

Do you think that this is right? Should you accept rank from someone outside your group? Should you have sought out another teacher from your original art?

Let the discussion begin!

Mike

 

[Big Don]

That doesn't quite seem right in either circumstance. Taking rank from outside Kenpo altogether seems like cheating, as someone not versed in Kenpo would not nessecarily know if your skills were up to the new rank.
Taking rank from a different variety of Kenpo also seems crooked. As much as there are many things called Kenpo, the variations are too widespread for an instructor in one form to honestly or accurately evaluate the growth, skills and potential of a student of another.

 

[jks9199]

I can't give rank in Kempo, Tai Chi Chuan, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, or anything other than Bando.

I can't give rank in Bando beyond a certain point, either, because of our associations rules and policies.

Therefore, if I accepted rank in Bando from someone in Kenpo, Tai Chi, the Bujinkan, or anywhere else, I'd be at best a hypocrite.

 

[kosho]

Well, Hmmmmm good topic.

I feel that if you are in Kempo/kenpo and lets say someone in TKD is 3 degree's higher then you says you should be a higher rank. I would say thank you, But I would not take rank from them. But, if a person in a Kempo/kenpo system higher then me says with your time in, skill level, info you have ETC>>> and promotes me to a higher degree in Kempo/kenpo then I feel that would hold more weight. So i feel that in kenpo/kempo the systems yet different all have the over all same idears.

take GrandMaster Elmer Jr. I had him up for a seminar.

He is truly skilled and has a ton of info: If he said I feel you are a
... rank in kempo/kenpo I would strongly think about taking the new rank.

Because he has a long time in the system of kempo/kenpo.

I could list a ton of kempo/kenpo people but you get the idear...

I hope this is what you ment...

Kosho

mike I see your Bank Roll is lower then Mine... LOL

 

[Kacey]

If I were to cross-train (and I'd like to... someday...) I would only accept rank based on my performance in that art - not based on my ranking in my current art (TKD). Now, if I were to start a new art and the instructor said "You're a black belt, I want you to wear a black belt so that the other students understand you're not a beginner", given the option, I'd turn it down. I would certainly discuss my experience and background with the instructor and the class so they'd know what was going on - but if I started something new, I'd want to start at the bottom.

As far as being offered rank from another style... well... the value that my rank has to me is that it shows that people whose opinion I value - my sahbum and seniors - believe that I have reached a certain level of ability and knowledge. A stranger wouldn't know that, wouldn't have seen me progress from white up to my current rank - and whatever rank that stranger, no matter how senior, experienced, well-respected, etc. offered me would not have that value behind it. In this day of high-quality printers and widely available certificate blanks, I could make any certificate I wanted, at any rank - but the value my certificates hold are in the signatures of those whose opinion I value, representing their faith in me - not in the rank itself.

 

[Blindside]

Seems a little silly to take rank from someone who isn't your instructor. That said, being a bit of an kenpo orphan lineage ourselves, after some ridiculously long time at fourth degree, our head instructor went out and found a new instructor of a different kenpo lineage, he worked with him for a couple of years, then tested under him. My instructor did not learn the entire American Kenpo system, that instructor didn't ask him to. What that instructor did was look at the entirety of the material my instructor had, what he had added in new material, and at what level he was operating, and said, "you deserve a fifth." That instructor lost students who were pissed that some "outsider" had come in and gotten promoted ahead of them.

At some point it isn't the curricullum, but what you can do.

Lamont

 

[kosho]

At some point it isn't the curricullum, but what you can do.

Lamont

I agree

Kosho

 

[Big Don]

If it isn't the curriculum that you have spent years learning, then it isn't the style you've trained in. If it isn't the style you've invested so much time and money in, is it worth it? Is rank nothing more than bragging rights? Shouldn't rank be a recognition of your skills and abilities, not just an ego thing?

 

[LawDog]

First of all, Kenpo is Kempo is Kenpo and so on.

Besides their own preset material what helps to make one Kenpo style different from another are the different percentages of the various types of material,
*strikes to kicks,
*impacting to jujitsu,
*self defense to offensive,
*presets to forms and so on.
Even though their presets and percentages may be different what makes all Kenpo / Kempo styles the same are the various tacticle theories that are found in and are unique to Kenpo / Kempo.

If a American Kenpo black belt loses his instructor he cannot get promoted higher in American Kenpo by any Kenpoist who is from another version of Kenpo, lets say Kenpo / Jujitsu. However this Kenpo / Jujitsu black belt can promote / recognize the American Kenpo stylist to a higher rank in what is known as generic Kenpo.
Non Kenpoists cannot, as an individual or board, promote a Kenpoist is a higher rank in Kenpo.
In my area we have a Kenpo stylist who was promoted to 5th then later on 6th Dan in Kenpo. His actual Kenpo rank stops at 4th Dan.

:knight:

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

What are your thoughts on getting rank from someone outside of your main art? In other words, here is a hypothetical situation. Lets say you're ranked a 5th in Parker Kenpo. Something happens to your instructor, you leave the org. ,etc. Next time someone sees you, you're walking around with a 6th on your waist. When questioned, you state that you got your rank from someone outside of the art of Kenpo altogether or you received it from a different branch of Kenpo, ie: Tracy.

Do you think that this is right? Should you accept rank from someone outside your group? Should you have sought out another teacher from your original art?

Let the discussion begin!

Mike

The word "should" denotes a personal value judgement, so all you are going to get is what people have done.

And which they have done because of their own criteria.

Which does NOT mean anyone "should" do anything.

What is real amusing is that the one they left does feel bad, just like the one divorced in a marriage feels bad, hurt, indignant and is hateful.

The one that did the divorcing normally feels great because they got a lead weight off of their back.

Unless their peer groups, sent by their old trainer now attempt to intimidate them into going back with guru X.

Once the toilet is flushed it is flushed.

I did talk with Al Tracy about this some 20 years ago when I used to have those very juvenile concerns.

He laughed and said, "all your students will leave you, eventually. Don't worry about it. Just train the new ones that come into the studio".

Worrying about "what might have been" is a one way path to Hell.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Blindside]

Shouldn't rank be a recognition of your skills and abilities, not just an ego thing?

Yup absolutely, but you should note that "skills and abilities" are not based off of a specific curricullum.

Does the fact that you do "Thrusting Salute" with an initial step to 4:30 and end with a palm-heel, and I do "Blocking the Kick" with an initial step to 5:00 and finish with a vertical punch really mean that either of our instructors couldn't look at either of us and say "yes you are good enough to be an orange belt."

I'm all for specific curricullums and underbelt stages, standardization helps the learning process. But AK runs out of fixed curricullum at 1st, 3rd, or 5th black depending on what curricullum you are running. And at high ranks, the fact that you learned to spell phoenetically or by rote, means little compared to your ability to write a good paragraph.

And someone tell SGM Parker's corpse that his 8th is no good because Sijo Emperado knows diddly about AK. Do you think a guy who was a fifth black in kenpo and an innovator in his own right when Parker was a white belt, might be able to recognize good @#$# when he sees it?

Lamont

(Note: I'd like to think all high rank is based of skills and abilities, but I'm afraid much of it is politics and ego.... bummer.)

 

[Seabrook]

What are your thoughts on getting rank from someone outside of your main art? In other words, here is a hypothetical situation. Lets say you're ranked a 5th in Parker Kenpo. Something happens to your instructor, you leave the org. ,etc. Next time someone sees you, you're walking around with a 6th on your waist. When questioned, you state that you got your rank from someone outside of the art of Kenpo altogether or you received it from a different branch of Kenpo, ie: Tracy.

Do you think that this is right? Should you accept rank from someone outside your group? Should you have sought out another teacher from your original art?

Let the discussion begin!

Mike

I know someone who was promoted to 6th in Kenpo, as well as someone who was promoted to 8th in Kenpo, and both of their promotions were from instructors who did not study Kenpo whatsoever.

I think this is terrible, and is one of the reasons why martial arts so often gets a bad name.

 

[SL4Drew]

I can't give rank in Kempo, Tai Chi Chuan, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, or anything other than Bando.

I can't give rank in Bando beyond a certain point, either, because of our associations rules and policies.

Therefore, if I accepted rank in Bando from someone in Kenpo, Tai Chi, the Bujinkan, or anywhere else, I'd be at best a hypocrite.

That doesn't quite seem right in either circumstance. Taking rank from outside Kenpo altogether seems like cheating, as someone not versed in Kenpo would not nessecarily know if your skills were up to the new rank.
Taking rank from a different variety of Kenpo also seems crooked. As much as there are many things called Kenpo, the variations are too widespread for an instructor in one form to honestly or accurately evaluate the growth, skills and potential of a student of another.

First let me say, I think it all depends. Then let me say it doesn't matter. And I generally don't care.

I think there are several Kenpo people that Dr. Gyi has 'acknowledged' not only as members of American Bando, but also in Kenpo. (Joe Palanzo comes to mind.) So does that make them illegitmate? Maybe, just maybe, a high level person in one system can recognize a talented martial artist in another system.

I know Jeff Speakman touts several seniors that signed off on his promotions, but most of them never learned the Motion Kenpo system Jeff received his early rank in. So were they wrong in giving him more stripes? Mr. Parker gave belts and ranks to people for a lot of different reasons. He continued to promote Chuck Sullivan, who taught in the West LA school but never learned the later Motion Kenpo material. So was Ed Parker a hypocrite? Was Mr. Sullivan being dishonest for accepting the rank? Someone mentioned Mr. Parker's own rank, so what do we make of any of those promotions after he came to the mainland?

We could go on and on, which is why I don't care. Especially after something like 3rd or 5th, how do you judge that? Can you give rank for longevity? Should it be judged strictly on performance? Or maybe after 5th degree it is all about being a scholar and your ability to teach. Or maybe you're dying of cancer? Maybe you brought Kenpo to a whole country or state and you have hundreds of belts under you. Should that count for anything?

Ultimately, I think it is largely between you and your instructor. If they want to promote you, who am I to say 'no.' I can have my own opinions about the person's skill, but that's how I look at it--a question of opinion on skill or knowledge, rather than the rank. If you want to put on a 10th degree and look silly, be my guest.

I am generally of the opinion that outside of the school or same instructor, stripes don't tell you a whole lot. A purple belt in one school might be a high brown in another. You can put on 15 stripes or a white belt, but I'll still judge you on what I see and/or learn.

 

[arnisador]

I know Jeff Speakman touts several seniors that signed off on his promotions, but most of them never learned the Motion Kenpo system Jeff received his early rank in.

What other options did he have after Mr. Parker's death?

So was Ed Parker a hypocrite? Was Mr. Sullivan being dishonest for accepting the rank? Someone mentioned Mr. Parker's own rank

Indeed, he was self-promoted to 10th degree (and rightly so, I think). The validity of the rank ultimately comes from the students who follow you and want to learn from you. You might get promoted to 9th degree by a 10th degree, but if people don't respect him or her, what does it matter?

Indeed, I believe in some traditional Japanese systems the person inheriting the title of Soke could, in principle, not be versed in the art...he inherits the authority for--really the ownership of--the system. But this is quite empty if no one wishes to learn it.

Your students or peers (if a competitive art) give you the rank, ultimately. True authority to govern comes from a mandate of the people.

 

[Danjo]

Ed Parker started with Sijo Emperado and then went to Prof. Chow. Sijo was Chow's first black belt and chief instructor. So at least he didn't go too far outside of his lineage to get the 8th degree promotion.

As to the rest of the question: when I went to train with Prof. Bishop, he said, "Yep you're a brown belt in Shotokan and Shaolin Kempo.", and he let me wear my brown belt while training, but wouldn't let me wear a Kajukenbo patch till I tested for it a year after I started training with him. I had the techniques memorized from the video tapes I had bought from him a year prior to joining his school and I had solid basics from the other arts I had studied. But Kajukenbo doesn't cross rank or video test, and it took me a year with Prof. Bishop to get the techniques down to his satisfaction for brown belt in Kajukenbo before he tested me.

So, two brown belts from other arts and a year practicing with the Kajukenbo techniques before joining still equaled one solid year of live training with him to get to brown belt in Kajukenbo.

I wouldn't have had it any other way.

 

[KenpoDave]

If it isn't the curriculum that you have spent years learning, then it isn't the style you've trained in. If it isn't the style you've invested so much time and money in, is it worth it? Is rank nothing more than bragging rights? Shouldn't rank be a recognition of your skills and abilities, not just an ego thing?

I think that is exactly what Lamont said.

"Shouldn't rank be a question of your skills and abilities?"
"It's not the curriculum, it's what you can do."

I think you guys are on the same page.

I have seen people in kenpo receive higher rank from others in kenpo based on years of service, abilities, etc. Typically, from what I have seen and/or read, the rank is usually given by a master of a particular style, or a group of masters from several particular styles, and the rank is given as a general Kenpo rank. Like when Ed Parker "ranked" Nick Cerio. It was not in Parker's Kenpo, or Cerio's Kenpo, it was in Kenpo. As a caveat, though, I have seen this done at the higher ranks, like 8-10, typically to recognize the achievements of a peer or to recognize a succession when a deceased grandmaster did not arrange for one.

 

[Rabu]

Belt rankings appear to be attributed to Jigaro Kano, and only applied to martial arts in 1883. (thank you wiki 'sometimes have good info pedia)

There is no longer/deeper history to 'black belt' ranking as used in modern martial arts. Titles or performance were probably the only real measurements going any further back.

There is no stadard. Each system or group or club has their own standards which they apply to what they say a 'black belt' means.

I think Danjo has a good viewpoint.

Rank should be meaningful to the individual and the standards they wish to be held to. If you wish your rank to mean something to the people you join in a new club, you should determine what steps would be necessary with your chosen instructor to be able to obtain that rank. (if rank is what your in it for)

All rank is 'honorary' in nature, since there is no standard across all systems which all systems recognize.

 

[jks9199]

I think there are several Kenpo people that Dr. Gyi has 'acknowledged' not only as members of American Bando, but also in Kenpo. (Joe Palanzo comes to mind.) So does that make them illegitmate? Maybe, just maybe, a high level person in one system can recognize a talented martial artist in another system.

I know Jeff Speakman touts several seniors that signed off on his promotions, but most of them never learned the Motion Kenpo system Jeff received his early rank in. So were they wrong in giving him more stripes? Mr. Parker gave belts and ranks to people for a lot of different reasons. He continued to promote Chuck Sullivan, who taught in the West LA school but never learned the later Motion Kenpo material. So was Ed Parker a hypocrite? Was Mr. Sullivan being dishonest for accepting the rank? Someone mentioned Mr. Parker's own rank, so what do we make of any of those promotions after he came to the mainland?
.

It's my understanding that there are a number of individuals that Dr. Gyi has recognized as being masters of their own system, and either offered them membership or brought them into the American Bando Association as Honorary or Associate Members, distinguished from Full Members (black belts in the ABA) and Student Members (any other member of the ABA). I also know that Dr. Gyi has extensive training in at least a few other martial arts, as well. I don't believe anyone has been "given" rank in the ABA without training in Bando. There's no doubt that a talented or highly skilled person in any field can recognize talent within the larger field; a good trombonist can recognize a good piano player, for example, just like a highly skilled martial artist can look at another person and say "Now, he (or she) is GOOD!" Giving esteem is not the same as awarding rank.

I didn't call Jeff Speakman, or anyone else a hypocrite. I said that I would be a hypocrite to either give rank in another system, or accept it from someone outside my system. In his case, people from what I understand to be related systems acknowledged his expertise; I bow to their expertise. I lack the specific knowledge to assess whether that was or was not appropriate. However, if he had accepted the ranking IN KENPO from someone like Patrick Mcarthy or Dan Inosanto... that'd be a different question. At the very least, I'd say it's not a credible rank, despite either gentleman's expertise. Though they might be qualified to assess Speakman, and say that what he has done is something new, and unique.

But, on the larger scale, I do agree. Comparing ranks across systems is pretty pointless. Or, to put it another way, rank is only meaningful in comparison of similar things; you can't rank a better apple among oranges. In a few cases, the style is well enough known and it's black belts carry a certain reputation -- but those are the exception, not the rule. Sometimes, even within a system, it's hard to compare ranks because local instructors may promote even up to 3rd (or higher) black belt without consulting any national/international standards committee. In general, rank is only meaningful within a system.

 

[SL4Drew]

It's my understanding that there are a number of individuals that Dr. Gyi has recognized as being masters of their own system, and either offered them membership or brought them into the American Bando Association as Honorary or Associate Members, distinguished from Full Members (black belts in the ABA) and Student Members (any other member of the ABA). I also know that Dr. Gyi has extensive training in at least a few other martial arts, as well. I don't believe anyone has been "given" rank in the ABA without training in Bando. There's no doubt that a talented or highly skilled person in any field can recognize talent within the larger field; a good trombonist can recognize a good piano player, for example, just like a highly skilled martial artist can look at another person and say "Now, he (or she) is GOOD!" Giving esteem is not the same as awarding rank.

I didn't call Jeff Speakman, or anyone else a hypocrite. I said that I would be a hypocrite to either give rank in another system, or accept it from someone outside my system. In his case, people from what I understand to be related systems acknowledged his expertise; I bow to their expertise. I lack the specific knowledge to assess whether that was or was not appropriate. However, if he had accepted the ranking IN KENPO from someone like Patrick Mcarthy or Dan Inosanto... that'd be a different question. At the very least, I'd say it's not a credible rank, despite either gentleman's expertise. Though they might be qualified to assess Speakman, and say that what he has done is something new, and unique.

But, on the larger scale, I do agree. Comparing ranks across systems is pretty pointless. Or, to put it another way, rank is only meaningful in comparison of similar things; you can't rank a better apple among oranges. In a few cases, the style is well enough known and it's black belts carry a certain reputation -- but those are the exception, not the rule. Sometimes, even within a system, it's hard to compare ranks because local instructors may promote even up to 3rd (or higher) black belt without consulting any national/international standards committee. In general, rank is only meaningful within a system.

Just so I am clear, I wasn't calling you out. I respect Dr. Gyi, and he has a long, proud association with Kenpo. He's a great guy. I don't pretend to know exactly how he runs his system or association. I used him as an example because you brought up Bando and I respect him. I my mind a superior instructor is one that can take a guy from another system and not only teach him, but make the guy and his system better for it. Dr. Gyi seems to be one of those men.

I think we agree. I think this whole belt and lineage think is really a house of cards. As Rabu pointed out, the dan system is relatively young. Who made the first 2nd degree or 10th degree? Can anyone trace their lineage to that guy? Is that the only way to have legitmate rank? It all gets really silly at a point.

 

[tellner]

It's my understanding that there are a number of individuals that Dr. Gyi has recognized as being masters of their own system, and either offered them membership or brought them into the American Bando Association as Honorary or Associate Members, distinguished from Full Members (black belts in the ABA) and Student Members (any other member of the ABA). I also know that Dr. Gyi has extensive training in at least a few other martial arts, as well. I don't believe anyone has been "given" rank in the ABA without training in Bando. There's no doubt that a talented or highly skilled person in any field can recognize talent within the larger field; a good trombonist can recognize a good piano player, for example, just like a highly skilled martial artist can look at another person and say "Now, he (or she) is GOOD!" Giving esteem is not the same as awarding rank.

And that's where he screwed up big time. It's one thing to say "Oliver Shagnasty? He's a damned fine martial artist. And I should know because I'm one, too." It's quite another to give Sifu Shagnasty a certificate and some sort of status in your completely unrelated organization and style. I've seen it happen to a depressing number of martial artists. It came back to bite them somewhere painful. After the inevitable parting of the ways the guys who got the party favors used them to claim status and skills that they didn't deserve and never had. It brought the giver's judgment into question and his reputation took a serious hit. The ranking of actual students was diluted.