Maybe I'm off base here, but it seems to me that promoting someone to brown belt before they have learned control is not a great idea. It may have to do with my school, though; for us, brown belts are assistant instructors, and are tasked with being "human punching bags" for the lower belts. Control is HUGE for us--it is stressed from day one. Students who repeatedly hurt people, and can't be trained out of it, are kicked out of the program long before brown belt.
Maybe I'm off base here, but it seems to me that promoting someone to brown belt before they have learned control is not a great idea. It may have to do with my school, though; for us, brown belts are assistant instructors, and are tasked with being "human punching bags" for the lower belts. Control is HUGE for us--it is stressed from day one. Students who repeatedly hurt people, and can't be trained out of it, are kicked out of the program long before brown belt.
Blade96
Senior Master
No evil higher kyus or BB's at my dojo. Of course there is the cliquish 'black belt table' and an evil senpai/sandan who i cant stand because he doesnt even say hi and basically acts like im no one to him, but no one who sets out to hurt other people in training. They are good with rookies.
and as a shodan of mine told me, Sometimes they come....people who get carried away with the fighting and hurt people and act all macho - but they never last long. :angel:
You don't think there's a difference between brown belt and black belt control? You don't think there's a difference between controlling a jab, or a palm strike and controlling a Lead Leg Side Thrust Kick/Landing Lead Hand Backnuckle Strike, Cross, Step Through Front Kick/Spin Rear Kick Combination?
We taught control too, but you are always learning new techniques, and new techniques are more difficult to control than more familiar ones. And at the brown belt or equivalent level of most martial arts, you start learning some very complicated and dangerous techniques. And it takes time to learn to use them well and with control, and the only way to do that is to use them against a resisting opponent.
Accidents happen. They happen all day every day. Most of the time they aren't a problem. I've banged my shins against people's knees hard enough to limp a month later, and jammed all my fingers, and broken both hands, and pulled major muscles in my back and done serious damage to both my knees. And I'm still pretty young. And I trained safely. But I was training to strangle, pummel, bend, or break an opponent into submission.
Martial arts is a combat activity. People get hurt. For some of us, that's part of the draw. Most of the time it isn't a serious issue. Sometimes you have a six foot seven three hundred fifty pound guy crush a 135 pound students face in a light to medium contact sparring match with gloves, headgear, and mouthpieces in. Then it's a little more of a problem.
-Rob
Actually, we learn all of our techniques by purple, then spend our 3 levels of brown belt refining them. Not that we don't continue to learn new ways to combine them, but the techniques themselves have been learned already. We also start sparring at yellow belt, so we learn control with simple techniques and continue to learn it along with the more complex ones. The people I have dealt with who don't know their own strength and hurt people are usually orange and green belt males. If they don't get a grip on themselves, they don't get much further.
I agree that accidents happen (see the "injuries" thread for some of the ones I've experienced), but consciousness of one's own strength and size should come early on in training, IMO. And yes, I agree that there is a difference in black belt and brown belt control, but there should be A LOT of control there by brown belt, as far as I'm concerned. A brown belt should be able to read his or her opponent and determine how hard to go. Not that they should be expected to be infallible in this, but if someone is repeatedly hurting other people, he probably has failed to develop this sense or failed to learn to control himself. Just my opinion; YMMV.
Cirdan
Senior Master
It is my experience too that this is a problem around that level. They start to get the hang of techniques but lack fine control. Particularily elbows, back kicks and roundhouses tend to leave a mark now and then. However I would argue this is as much a problem for females as it is for males, and an x-chromosome only elbow to the face hurts just as much
Anyway I guess different styles teach control at different levels. Some kickboxers I`ve trained with have been downright dangerous even at dan level, totally willing to kick your teeth in during a normal drill.
"uurgh.. please don`t back kick me full force in the stomach again, we are training technique"
"Huh? You were standing too close!"
Sorry, just answering the op's question. Out of respect for a discussion forum and open exchange I am going to give the best answer I can at this time.
In complete honesty, the overall "Me," can't come up with the reason. I don't honestly know why. However, after leaving and a little while sitting there, that feeling I described was absolutely unmistakable, and came over me. I can absolutely say, with 1000% certainty, I have changed over the years, and in all honesty, not for the better. Also, I'm sure a little has changed with the group too, but, they seemed to be operating as I remembered (and expected) for the most part. I also understand that after so much time away I wouldn't expect to feel comfortable or regain whatever amount of status I had. I don't honestly know the reason. All I can give for an honest answer is that I felt what I felt at the time. Sorry to all for being vague, but, it's all that I can be and give now. I guess we all walk our own paths ultimately, and our company along the way comes and goes, but, in the end our journey is our own.
I dunno....
It is my experience too that this is a problem around that level. They start to get the hang of techniques but lack fine control. Particularily elbows, back kicks and roundhouses tend to leave a mark now and then. However I would argue this is as much a problem for females as it is for males, and an x-chromosome only elbow to the face hurts just as much
I'm sure you're right about the x chromosome elbows; I just haven't experienced that with as many female students. Maybe they experienced it with me, though.
CoryKS
Senior Master
I'm sure you're right about the x chromosome elbows; I just haven't experienced that with as many female students. Maybe they experienced it with me, though.
With the females, it's usually much lower and not an elbow.
I've discussed this in more detail elsewhere on the board, search me if you want more of the story. For now, here's the abbreviated version:
My former Sensei and I had a falling out. This culminated in my having to test for Shodan three times (six in total, if you count the in-dojo test that we do before going before the certifying board). I moved right after the third test for reasons unrelated to my training, not that I wasn't happy to get the heck out dodge. He agreed I could return for the ceremony to receive my belt, but once I was gone he turned around and expelled me in a public email he sent to every senior rank in the dojo. For some reason he mailed me the belt (I'm still not sure how it makes sense to promote and expel someone in the same breath but wtf do I know eh?). I never got a ceremony or a certificate, but let me tell you, I sure as hell knew my s*** by the time I got to that third test.
My former Sensei and I had a falling out. This culminated in my having to test for Shodan three times (six in total, if you count the in-dojo test that we do before going before the certifying board). I moved right after the third test for reasons unrelated to my training, not that I wasn't happy to get the heck out dodge. He agreed I could return for the ceremony to receive my belt, but once I was gone he turned around and expelled me in a public email he sent to every senior rank in the dojo. For some reason he mailed me the belt (I'm still not sure how it makes sense to promote and expel someone in the same breath but wtf do I know eh?). I never got a ceremony or a certificate, but let me tell you, I sure as hell knew my s*** by the time I got to that third test.
bookworm_cn317
2nd Black Belt
Failing my first attempt at the 2nd degree blue belt test. I blanked out on something(poomse, I think) & burst into tears. My instructor(Jim) ended the test right then & there.
I passed on my 2nd attempt, though. The other black belt(Dennis) tested me and I passed. Jim told me Dennis' tests were always harder than his tests. It seemed easy to me. <shrugs>
I passed on my 2nd attempt, though. The other black belt(Dennis) tested me and I passed. Jim told me Dennis' tests were always harder than his tests. It seemed easy to me. <shrugs>
kitkatninja
Blue Belt
For me (I started the MA back in the late 90's):
1. Over the course of time, damaged my knees - had to take approx a 6 year break
2. During a national competition (before my break), threw a round house kick to my opponents head during a match - ended up splitting the skin on the bottom of my foot (the one that was on the mat as I kicked) by about 1 1/2 to 2"
3. On returning to the MA after my break, I started with a well known karate association (I won't mention any names) - during my second grading (which was regional, the first grading is local) I was witnessing people being promoted to their 6th kyu (green belt), when they couldn't even get the kata or basic's right for the first belt. After seeing that, I left them.
Not as bad as others here, but that's my "bad" experiences so far
1. Over the course of time, damaged my knees - had to take approx a 6 year break
2. During a national competition (before my break), threw a round house kick to my opponents head during a match - ended up splitting the skin on the bottom of my foot (the one that was on the mat as I kicked) by about 1 1/2 to 2"
3. On returning to the MA after my break, I started with a well known karate association (I won't mention any names) - during my second grading (which was regional, the first grading is local) I was witnessing people being promoted to their 6th kyu (green belt), when they couldn't even get the kata or basic's right for the first belt. After seeing that, I left them.
Not as bad as others here, but that's my "bad" experiences so far
Some of my worst moments are when I hurt someone. When I was a green belt a brown belt was joining from another school. On his first day we were sparing and swept me right off my feet. I was a bit mad about it; so, I maybe turned up the contact a little. I instantly became aware the he liked to drop his guard, but was using his lead arm to protect his body. Because he was turning his elbow toward me, I decided he was vulnerable and kicked him in the elbow. Sure enough he was vulnerable; it broke his arm. I never saw that guy again. He was very upset, but everyone assured me it was his fault, and it was, but I still feel bad when a student quits because I hit him. 
And, before anyone points out that it was, some how, my fault. He learned a very valuable lesson that day, don't stand like that, or you will get your arm broken.
And, before anyone points out that it was, some how, my fault. He learned a very valuable lesson that day, don't stand like that, or you will get your arm broken.
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GrandmasterP
Green Belt
Attending what turned out to be an especially seedy MMA spectacle.
Never again.
Never again.
Which one? Pm me if you don't want to say in public, we do have some very bad ones that we are trying to stop but quite often they are one fight night wonders, they think they can put on a fight night and it will be easy money. We've had quite a few fighters and officials not being paid, we try to flag them up to the MMA community though hence my interest in the one you attended. We have set up a legitimate governing body (Safe MMA) with recognised officials trained by Marc Goddard, qualified medical care ( something some so called promoters don't bother with as good medics are expensive but worth every penny), the majority of MMA people are keen to weed out the seedy and downright dangerous, we want it to be recognised in the same way as other sports here.
GrandmasterP
Green Belt
No names no pack drill but it was held in a grotty night club on a Sunday afternoon and locally advertised.
Could have seen similar a few hours before outside the night club at chucking out time was my impression, just brawling.
Even a couple of fights broke out amongst the audience. Proper zoo it was in there, we came out.
This before I began taking Martial Arts Illustrated.
Good to hear and read of the clean ups.
My oldest lad intends to be at that Wigan do ( watching, not fighting).
Could have seen similar a few hours before outside the night club at chucking out time was my impression, just brawling.
Even a couple of fights broke out amongst the audience. Proper zoo it was in there, we came out.
This before I began taking Martial Arts Illustrated.
Good to hear and read of the clean ups.
My oldest lad intends to be at that Wigan do ( watching, not fighting).
I have a good idea who and what lol. Wigan looks good, I'll have to see what shifts I'm on but I wish I could be in Dublin for tomorrow nights Cage Warriors. A good fight night and then Dublin for New Year... wonderful! Cage Warriors shows are worth going to btw, I've known them since the beginning, I've worked on one of their shows up here in the north, been to a great many of them, they have upped the MMA scene here a lot in the past then years or so.
This is a tale of horror, so I apologize in advance.
In the early eighties I was running a large, full time dojo. There were well over a hundred adults and about sixty kids. I'm sitting in the office one day while class is going on. A single mom comes in with her son, Jay. He looks to be nine years old. He's wearing a neck brace and some sort of halo thing attached to braces on his teeth. He has an eerie pale complexion and a lost look in his eyes. The mom wants to inquire about classes for the boy. The three of us chat for a bit, (he barely speaks), then we have him go watch class while her and I talk.
I find out he's twelve years old, not nine. I ask her about his medical condition. She tells me that he's been on anti-seizure medication since the day he was born, as he apparently had a seizure on the day of his birth. I asked her when the last time that had been checked. She said it hadn't. I tell her I need a report from that doctor - she tells me he's passed away. I tell her I need a report and letter from a physician stating that her son is safe for heavy exercise and contact sports. She says okay.
They come back in a couple weeks later. Jay has been removed from that medication, and he already looks much better. His eyes are bright, but he's still very introverted. We start in the kids beginners class. I assign a couple of the veteran kids to take Jay under their wings. They're great kids and do so in a friendly, quiet manner.
Flash forward six months. Jay has grown over four inches. His school marks have improved from Ds to Bs. He never misses class and starts to come out of his shell. I hear him laughing for the first time. He makes his yellow belt.
Flash forward another six months, Jay has put on weight, grown some more and speaks up with confidence whenever asked a question. It's the kind of thing that makes you proud to be involved in teaching. He's a joy to have in the dojo. He asks if he can come and watch a tournament. We get the okay from mom and he comes along with thirty of us to a big competition. At the end of the day he says, "I want to compete." We get the okay from mom and start training him for it.
Flash forward another year. He's a purple belt now. He's getting all A's in school. I've gone up to his school and his teachers have told me what a remarkable change there's been in him. He leads class projects, all the kids love him, nobody picks on him anymore - and the young gals think he's the coolest thing. He's competed in a dozen tournaments by now, placed several times and won his division three different times. He's assisting the assistant instructors in the teaching of the kids beginners class, and he takes special interest in helping the more introverted, less athletic kids. I'm so proud of him I could just bust!
So, it's been a little over two years that he's been a student. What an absolute pleasure it's been. Then, one day in class he collapses and starts crying. He didn't physically collapse, it was an emotional drop to the floor. I go over to take care of him, to see what was wrong. I bring him to the office, where he will hardly look at me and tells me he doesn't feel well. I call mom. She comes and gets him. She won't look at me either.
A week passes. I call the house but they don't answer or return my call. The next day one of their neighbors comes in to speak with me. She tells me that the mom took Jay to a dozen different doctors until she found one that would put him back on the medication he had been on as an infant. Incredulous, I ask why. The neighbor tells me "Because she was losing her little baby. And he was starting to pay more attention to girls, and to sports than he was to mom. And she wouldn't stand for that."
I didn't believe what I was hearing. I called everyone I could think of. I called the American Medical Association, Child Services, Department of Youth Services, the Church, my state rep, my Congressman, my Senator, his school, his teachers, the police - I called everyone. They all checked into it but gave me the same response, "If he has a prescription, there's nothing you can do about it." I went at it for three months. I struck out. In that three months Jay became a zombie again. Started to fail in all his school subjects. The teachers tried to speak to the mom - so she changed schools.
I never got over that evil. It made me want to quit teaching. I found out ten years later that life didn't turn out so well for Jay. Like that's a surprise.
That's the worst thing that's ever happened to me in the Arts. Maybe even in life. Ah, well, I guess we can't save them all. But it still hurts to think about.
In the early eighties I was running a large, full time dojo. There were well over a hundred adults and about sixty kids. I'm sitting in the office one day while class is going on. A single mom comes in with her son, Jay. He looks to be nine years old. He's wearing a neck brace and some sort of halo thing attached to braces on his teeth. He has an eerie pale complexion and a lost look in his eyes. The mom wants to inquire about classes for the boy. The three of us chat for a bit, (he barely speaks), then we have him go watch class while her and I talk.
I find out he's twelve years old, not nine. I ask her about his medical condition. She tells me that he's been on anti-seizure medication since the day he was born, as he apparently had a seizure on the day of his birth. I asked her when the last time that had been checked. She said it hadn't. I tell her I need a report from that doctor - she tells me he's passed away. I tell her I need a report and letter from a physician stating that her son is safe for heavy exercise and contact sports. She says okay.
They come back in a couple weeks later. Jay has been removed from that medication, and he already looks much better. His eyes are bright, but he's still very introverted. We start in the kids beginners class. I assign a couple of the veteran kids to take Jay under their wings. They're great kids and do so in a friendly, quiet manner.
Flash forward six months. Jay has grown over four inches. His school marks have improved from Ds to Bs. He never misses class and starts to come out of his shell. I hear him laughing for the first time. He makes his yellow belt.
Flash forward another six months, Jay has put on weight, grown some more and speaks up with confidence whenever asked a question. It's the kind of thing that makes you proud to be involved in teaching. He's a joy to have in the dojo. He asks if he can come and watch a tournament. We get the okay from mom and he comes along with thirty of us to a big competition. At the end of the day he says, "I want to compete." We get the okay from mom and start training him for it.
Flash forward another year. He's a purple belt now. He's getting all A's in school. I've gone up to his school and his teachers have told me what a remarkable change there's been in him. He leads class projects, all the kids love him, nobody picks on him anymore - and the young gals think he's the coolest thing. He's competed in a dozen tournaments by now, placed several times and won his division three different times. He's assisting the assistant instructors in the teaching of the kids beginners class, and he takes special interest in helping the more introverted, less athletic kids. I'm so proud of him I could just bust!
So, it's been a little over two years that he's been a student. What an absolute pleasure it's been. Then, one day in class he collapses and starts crying. He didn't physically collapse, it was an emotional drop to the floor. I go over to take care of him, to see what was wrong. I bring him to the office, where he will hardly look at me and tells me he doesn't feel well. I call mom. She comes and gets him. She won't look at me either.
A week passes. I call the house but they don't answer or return my call. The next day one of their neighbors comes in to speak with me. She tells me that the mom took Jay to a dozen different doctors until she found one that would put him back on the medication he had been on as an infant. Incredulous, I ask why. The neighbor tells me "Because she was losing her little baby. And he was starting to pay more attention to girls, and to sports than he was to mom. And she wouldn't stand for that."
I didn't believe what I was hearing. I called everyone I could think of. I called the American Medical Association, Child Services, Department of Youth Services, the Church, my state rep, my Congressman, my Senator, his school, his teachers, the police - I called everyone. They all checked into it but gave me the same response, "If he has a prescription, there's nothing you can do about it." I went at it for three months. I struck out. In that three months Jay became a zombie again. Started to fail in all his school subjects. The teachers tried to speak to the mom - so she changed schools.
I never got over that evil. It made me want to quit teaching. I found out ten years later that life didn't turn out so well for Jay. Like that's a surprise.
That's the worst thing that's ever happened to me in the Arts. Maybe even in life. Ah, well, I guess we can't save them all. But it still hurts to think about.
Uncle
Blue Belt
One of my worst was on a visit to another dojo for a seminar I was having a friendly sparring match with someone. Then I started goofing around a bit and not really taking it seriously and I got kicked square in the nads in front of my sensei. I've never fooled around in sparring since then.
Well my worst moments happend on the same day. 3 of them in fact. I have mentioned before that i was training at a mma place in town. Well this place has one guy going pro and the rest are quallity ammy fighters. I was among a small group of hobbyists. As time went on they all left, and by the 5th month there, i was the only hobbyist that showed up regularly. Now i feel im decent, and can hold my own. Training with the other hobbyists was great, we all learned together and advanced in skill together.
Well Since it was sparring day, coach had me sparring with the Ammy guys. It was not a good day for me in the least. I was sparring with a assistant instructor and i was totaly over whelmed. Kept making newb mistakes. Well i ended up catching a hard hook that nearly knocked me off my feet. I took a break for a moment and rested for a round. Later i was sparring a new guy(who apparently wasnt new but a returning guy with tons of experiance) who's standing game was heavily influenced by MT. Well i had a hard time in close with him, he was better at close range striking then i was. That being said, i tried to stay close becuase that is were i was at my best with him. It was good for me. Well as time went on i got tired of eating round kicks to the thigh. I saw him ready his round kick and remembered suddenly that the front push kick is a defensive manuver. So he started his round kick and i Immediately front push kicked him. I fired for effect and it worked. Problem is im a fat guy, i have lost alot of weight but have a lot to go. As such my flexibility is very poor. The kick, which i thought i aimed at his midsection actually hit him square in the cup. He went down that was it for him as the class ended shortly afterwards. I felt bad and appologized he said it was ok, but i still felt bad.
Well as class ended i had mentioned that i wanted to stay over and work on more things. Getting embarrassed earlier by all the others only reinforced this desire. I looked and performed great with the hobbyists, but against them i was a mobil punching bag, my skill was that much worse then theirs. I even found my self getting overwhelmed and started turtling and that only leads to more pummeling and a reminder to not turtle and keep moving..
Well as the others left, coach steps in, gear on and proceeds to spar with me. Not what i wanted but hey i cant complain. After a while of back and forth, i cant touch him he is just that good. Well, he gets me off balance and goes to round kick my rear thigh. Well i moved just at the right time and in the right way and he ended up kicking me square in the nads. It took 5 mins before i recovered and we sparred one more 5min round and then it was over. I think i landed only 1 good hit on him that whole 25mins we were sparring together. I never felt so humiliated and embarrassed as i did that day. He told me i was doing fine and that my progress was good. None of that helped me. When i got out to the car i just cried and cried. I was better then that performance, i knew it. I had never made those newb mistakes and turtled.
Well as i was driving home, my wife called and asked me to pick up something from the local stop and rob. So as i was heading back to my home i noticed a new mma school opend up literaly 5 mins from my home. I went in and talked to the owner for 3 hours. He didnt even have his school open yet, he was new in town. He let me in for a private session on the next saturday to see were i was. Spent 3 hours training with him that day. Signed up that night and quit my old gym. I just couldnt go back. I felt as if i would stop learning, on top of other issues. Mainly i had a fear of the assistant instructor. He seamed to not like me, and i felt like he thought i was wasting his and everyone elses time becuase i didnt have 8-10 hours a week to train like he did. So my fear of him, had been cuasing me to skip class's he was attending, so i ended up skipping most of them. Then after that horrid sparring day, i just quit. I had payed up for 1 more month but i didnt care.
My new coach didnt charge me for a month and i have been there ever sense. I have regrets, i feel i was a pansy for quiting and not just dealing with my issues with the coach. I feel like crap, and it eats me to this day. I drive by there, while delivering parts intown, and i look longingly at my old school, but i know i can never go back. I dont belong there. No hobbyists and all ammy/pro fighters.
IMHO hobbyists should not train with pro's. I ended up not learning anything only fear and watching as my skillset crumbled.
Well Since it was sparring day, coach had me sparring with the Ammy guys. It was not a good day for me in the least. I was sparring with a assistant instructor and i was totaly over whelmed. Kept making newb mistakes. Well i ended up catching a hard hook that nearly knocked me off my feet. I took a break for a moment and rested for a round. Later i was sparring a new guy(who apparently wasnt new but a returning guy with tons of experiance) who's standing game was heavily influenced by MT. Well i had a hard time in close with him, he was better at close range striking then i was. That being said, i tried to stay close becuase that is were i was at my best with him. It was good for me. Well as time went on i got tired of eating round kicks to the thigh. I saw him ready his round kick and remembered suddenly that the front push kick is a defensive manuver. So he started his round kick and i Immediately front push kicked him. I fired for effect and it worked. Problem is im a fat guy, i have lost alot of weight but have a lot to go. As such my flexibility is very poor. The kick, which i thought i aimed at his midsection actually hit him square in the cup. He went down that was it for him as the class ended shortly afterwards. I felt bad and appologized he said it was ok, but i still felt bad.
Well as class ended i had mentioned that i wanted to stay over and work on more things. Getting embarrassed earlier by all the others only reinforced this desire. I looked and performed great with the hobbyists, but against them i was a mobil punching bag, my skill was that much worse then theirs. I even found my self getting overwhelmed and started turtling and that only leads to more pummeling and a reminder to not turtle and keep moving..
Well as the others left, coach steps in, gear on and proceeds to spar with me. Not what i wanted but hey i cant complain. After a while of back and forth, i cant touch him he is just that good. Well, he gets me off balance and goes to round kick my rear thigh. Well i moved just at the right time and in the right way and he ended up kicking me square in the nads. It took 5 mins before i recovered and we sparred one more 5min round and then it was over. I think i landed only 1 good hit on him that whole 25mins we were sparring together. I never felt so humiliated and embarrassed as i did that day. He told me i was doing fine and that my progress was good. None of that helped me. When i got out to the car i just cried and cried. I was better then that performance, i knew it. I had never made those newb mistakes and turtled.
Well as i was driving home, my wife called and asked me to pick up something from the local stop and rob. So as i was heading back to my home i noticed a new mma school opend up literaly 5 mins from my home. I went in and talked to the owner for 3 hours. He didnt even have his school open yet, he was new in town. He let me in for a private session on the next saturday to see were i was. Spent 3 hours training with him that day. Signed up that night and quit my old gym. I just couldnt go back. I felt as if i would stop learning, on top of other issues. Mainly i had a fear of the assistant instructor. He seamed to not like me, and i felt like he thought i was wasting his and everyone elses time becuase i didnt have 8-10 hours a week to train like he did. So my fear of him, had been cuasing me to skip class's he was attending, so i ended up skipping most of them. Then after that horrid sparring day, i just quit. I had payed up for 1 more month but i didnt care.
My new coach didnt charge me for a month and i have been there ever sense. I have regrets, i feel i was a pansy for quiting and not just dealing with my issues with the coach. I feel like crap, and it eats me to this day. I drive by there, while delivering parts intown, and i look longingly at my old school, but i know i can never go back. I dont belong there. No hobbyists and all ammy/pro fighters.
IMHO hobbyists should not train with pro's. I ended up not learning anything only fear and watching as my skillset crumbled.
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