What is that group claiming to be Christian ninja?

Hudson69

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Does anyone here know what I am talking about. I saw a website about this a couple of years ago but never looked into their background to see what kind of lineage they promoted to have; are they legit, yes, no or maybe?
 

Kajowaraku

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If you are referring to choson ninja Park, I would have to say legit is not really a word that comes to mind. Many other words come to mind, but these are typically filtered out by a civilised forum such as MT.

If you are not referring to the gang of Mr. Park I would have you know that "Christian ninja" sounds very American by nature of the way both completely unrelated words are combined in one denominator. Obviously, one can train traditional ninpo nd be a christian, there's certainly no contradiction, but to make Christian one of the determining factors is, well... odd.

Than there is the matter of what you mean by "legit". If you mean "traditional, true Japanese Ninjutsu" than I would have to dissapoint you, since i sincerely doubt they belong to any of the X-Kan. There will always be discussion on the matter of authenticity with ninjutsu though.

If you want to learn ninjutsu, join an X-kan. If you want to talk to jezus, find a church. Mixing both is odd. At least, that's *my* overly biased oppinion. I'm sure somebody will find a reason to exonerate them from my scandalous slander.
 

ElfTengu

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I am of the opinion that 'Thou Shalt Not Lie' must surely mean that one should not tell people that they are learning authentic ninjutsu when it is clearly not. We've had 'Koga' people do exactly the same thing before.

I refute not only their claim to teach ninjutsu but also their claim to be upright Christian citizens, when so much of what they do is based on lies.

Greg Park has since renamed his style 'Dedicated To God Karate' so you have to give him an intsy wintsy bit of credit, although he still wears black 'ninjesque' gear and hasn't removed any of the ten billion offending clips from youtube, and I doubt if he has any ranking in karate. It is a shame because if he just came out as the Korean stylist that he is, be his background Taekwondo or whatever, he would be quite rightly respected as a skilled practitioner. He can certainly kick better than I ever could and is in much better shape physically. But he aint no ninja and you can't just call any old made-up art ninjutsu, any more than I as an Englishman can invent my own Native American martial art, because it just wouldn't be right, no matter how much I painted my face and whooped round the campfire with a peacepipe bilging acrid unrefined tobacco smoke. It would be a lie, and so, my friends, are all these Jesus Ryu Ninjutsu schools, and I must reiterate once again that Christians (and anyone else with personal integrity) are not supposed to lie.
 
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Kajowaraku

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I suppose hira ichimonji no kamae is pretty popular amongst jezus ryu ninja. "tilt your head a bit more to the left, yes..that's it..."
 

Obi Wan Shinobi

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I think maybe the original poster may be referring to the "*******" group. If I'm not mistaken they claim that Christianity influenced ninjutsu or something to that extent....................:rolleyes:
 

Shinobi Teikiatsu

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He could also be referring to the group I train with, with our sensei being an ordained minister and implementing many Christian symbols into training. Still though, I don't think we define ourselves as "Christian ninja" More like a taijutsu class with HEAVEY Christian influences.
 

Bruno@MT

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I am confused. How can you add Christian influences to taijutsu?
Praying before class?
 

Kajowaraku

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I am confused. How can you add Christian influences to taijutsu?
Praying before class?


But no Bruno; it's all about how you respond to an attack! Tai sabaki and turning the other cheek :).

In fact the character nin stands for enduring great difficulty with patience and resolve (something in that general direction). Sounds very Christian to me. "Rejoice! For blesseth are those who suffer".

Also i Imagine the walkin on water ninja trick can be likened to christianity with some imagination.

Actually, looking at all the "evidence" I actually believe Christ might have been a ninja!

Seriously now, people will always see parallels and connections where there are none whatesover, just because they want to see those links, or because it's good marketing. Not sure which is most applicable here.
 

Chris Parker

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Agreed. I remember even seeing a video on youtube a while back where a Western practitioner was teaching that the Kuji-in was just an exercise to aid your flexibility and strength in your fingers (because they couldn't reconcile any more "spiritual" aspect that may not quite be exactly what they found in their interptation of their faith). Now, to me, there is no conflict between the martial art teachings and a religious faith, so long as you are not studying to be a buddhist monk while also being a practicing Catholic (for example).

People like Bob Bussey have had very strong Christian beliefs which guide and shape their lives, training, and schools without changing the arts being taught at all (from what I understand about Bob's schools, his Christianity helped him shape the way he structured his management of the heirachy, instilling values such as respect for each member, allowing everyone to offer input into the running of the schools and the curriculuum etc, and that was about it).

Teaching (or training) in a martial art shouldn't be mutually exclusive with a religious faith or belief, but then again, it isn't necessarily something that should be alter the art either (because of percieved differences - if you see them, and can't reconcile them, then perhaps the art isn't for you).
 

nwalker

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I myself follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and practice Taekwondo. I find that the moral and personal teachings of TKD can easily be translated into the life of a Christian and can actually be a vital tool used in spiritual growth.

I do realize that this post is about this "Christian Ninja" group but I just wanted to add in take on MA and God.

Nate
 

ElfTengu

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I have been known to move in mysterious ways but that's about it.

I am fascinated with Buddhism, Shingon particularly, and Shinto, and I am in absolute awe of the architecture made possible by the faith of Christians, Muslims and followers of other faiths, but I have not been endowed with faith myself.

Having shaken off the shackles of fear and guilt imbued via a Christian upbringing, I find that I am more maganmimous, philanthropic compassionate and altruistic minded without the promise of an enternal afterlife than 'with'. I do not believe this life is a rehearsal for another, and for me, immortality is the act of becoming fertiliser some time after I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Not that I'm not spiritual, because I am, but only in an earthly sense.

And if I find myself fighting for my life in a dark alley, God is more than welcome to help out if he does exist, but I will certainly not be counting on it, and do not expect him to.

I mean he doesn't even help out his own most devout followers from the most agonising demises, so why should he help me?

If God protecting my family means bringing them up to heaven in any means other than a peaceful deceasement in their sleep, then no thanks, I'll look after them myself, thank you very much.

But each to their own. If you do have faith, you don't get to choose whether to believe or not, but I pity the man whose worldly actions are based on a selfish desire for post-life promotion to better things, rather than genuine love for one's fellow human beings.
 

Tez3

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I have been known to move in mysterious ways but that's about it.

I am fascinated with Buddhism, Shingon particularly, and Shinto, and I am in absolute awe of the architecture made possible by the faith of Christians, Muslims and followers of other faiths, but I have not been endowed with faith myself.

Having shaken off the shackles of fear and guilt imbued via a Christian upbringing, I find that I am more maganmimous, philanthropic compassionate and altruistic minded without the promise of an enternal afterlife than 'with'. I do not believe this life is a rehearsal for another, and for me, immortality is the act of becoming fertiliser some time after I shuffle off this mortal coil.

Not that I'm not spiritual, because I am, but only in an earthly sense.

And if I find myself fighting for my life in a dark alley, God is more than welcome to help out if he does exist, but I will certainly not be counting on it, and do not expect him to.

I mean he doesn't even help out his own most devout followers from the most agonising demises, so why should he help me?

If God protecting my family means bringing them up to heaven in any means other than a peaceful deceasement in their sleep, then no thanks, I'll look after them myself, thank you very much.

But each to their own. If you do have faith, you don't get to choose whether to believe or not, but I pity the man whose worldly actions are based on a selfish desire for post-life promotion to better things, rather than genuine love for one's fellow human beings.

You haven't heard about the man in the flood then? He drowned when the flood waters rose above his roof and after his demise he began berating G-d for not saving him. G-d let him blow himself out of steam and said " do you remember the police officer who came to your door to tell you about the flood and you said you wouldn't leave because I'd save you? Then do you remember the navy guys who came to rescue you when the water was up to your first floor but you said you wouldn't leave because I'd save you? You remember the air force helicopter guys who came to rescue you when you were on the roof and you said you weren't leaving because I'd save you? Well, for crying out loud, WHO DO YOU THINK SENT THEM?

G-d helps those who help themselves, he gave us enough tools to do it ourselves, why whinge and moan to Him all the time.

And yes that fits in nicely with self defence and martial arts but them I'm Jewish, we don't believe in G-d, we know theres a G-d so we get on with life accordingly. Basic tenet? Treat everyone as you would want to be treated and serve up good food.
 

Chris Parker

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Hi Tez,

If I may, I wouldn't be too quick to be offended by ElfTengu's interpretation here. As we all know, different people have different beliefs, values, and upbringings. With ElfTengu, it would appear that he had an upbringing which he feels was repressive due in part (at least) to the religious aspect to it. This is not uncommon. I would surmise that you have had a religious upbringing which was empowering and pulifting for you.

Some people find strength in atheism, knowing that all they achieve in life and their endeavours is due to their hard work and efforts; others are empowered by the knowledge that they are looked over by a higher power, and they are able to turn to that higher power in times of need and struggle to find the answers they require. Some are even strengthened by agnosticism, neither truly believing in a God-concept, nor accepting that there is nothing beyond what they see. These people (and I count myself amongst them, so you know where I stand) quest, and are often very aptly described as spiritual but not religious.

The various names of the God-concept will vary for person to person, God, Yahweh, Allah, Lord, Master of the Universe, Jehovah, or the Universe itself. There is only truly a difference in the way each individual relates to their concept of a higher power, and that is determined by their upbringing and surroundings. Even those who are truly atheistic will typically admit to there being a greater "something" anyway, so it applies to them quite well as well.

As to the "Flood" story, it is one I have heard quite a number of versions of (I really like the one in "The West Wing", for the record), but to me the story is less about whether or not a God-type being exists than it is about people relying on others to do everything for them (in this case, "God will save me!"), and the perils of such complacency. In this regard, it is just as pertinent when removed from it's religious aspects.

Other than that, I completely agree with you about religious beliefs and morals (whether they be Christian, Jewish, or other) fit very well with teachings and training in self-defence (and, by extension, the defence of others around you, and then society in general). In fact, I would go so far as to say that without some solid, strong ethics and morals, as well as a spiritual aspect to your personality, then the martial arts will probably not be a good match for you, as you will have no use for them. Oh, and the bit about serving good food? That should just be adopted by everyone regardless of background. Thanks for that one!

But the idea here is not whether or not a religious take on things is good for a person, but simply finding out which Ninjutsu organisation/schools promoted themselves as "Christian Ninjutsu", I believe. There was never a judgement made as to whether it was a good thing or not, and I personally feel that will depend purely on the potential student in question. I wouldn't go for it, but it could work very well for others. I just think that the religious side shouldn't overshadow the teachings of the art (ie don't remove aspects because you don't think they're very "Christian", I guess).
 

ElfTengu

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I also had heard that joke and told it. It is a funny one. Shingon Buddhism has some hilarious parables in its actual teachings which is probably why it appeals to me.

The abbot sees his disciple sitting cross legged on the ground and asks what he is doing.

"I am going to become a Buddha" says the disciple.

Later the disciple is walking along and sees the abbot rubbing a brick and a rock together vigorously, and asks his master what he is doing.

"I am rubbing this brick with a rock to make it into a mirror" says the abbot.

"But master, no amount of rubbing that brick with a rock will turn it into a mirror" cries the student.

"Yes" says the abbot, "And no amount of sitting cross legged on the ground will turn you into a Buddha!"

anyway:

I did not mean to cause offence, and hope I did not. I was reacting to the thread turning into an AA meeting for people to stand up and proclaim their own religious belief and martial art.

Of course someone with faith 'knows' that god exists, just as atheists 'know' he doesn't and agnostics aren't sure one way or the other.

If I'm wrong and I get to the pearly gates, I would expect to be let in for my conduct in life, rather than my faith and worship, and I would expect preferential treatment over a Jew, Christian etc who had committed many wrongs in life, because to me a religion is about your conduct and treatment of your fellow man and the planet entrusted to us, regardless of faith, bowing, praying, kneeling, abstinence from sex, alcohol, beef or bacon. Although if God made us in his own image then he must have a lot of faults too! :D

But you can be a good Christian and yet enforce the rules of the money lenders, putting innocent people out of their homes and barely able to feed themselves, but as long as you go to church everything will be fine. You can be a Christian, Jewish or Muslim world leader and order military attacks that will unavoidably cause the deaths of children, and still believe that you will be welcomed into Paradise, but for the Christian and Jewish leaders alone they are not permitted to kill, and I don't recall a list of exceptions in the Old Testament. Do we turn the other cheek against terrorists, do we say, "go on then, blow something else up", or do we bomb their nations and kill their children?

I wouldn't even class myself as an atheist or agnostic, in some ways I wish I did have faith, although whether it would benefit me or cloud my judgement I don't know. Certainly if I had been born in certain countries under certain regimes, where religious fervour is drilled into you until you don't know if your faith came from within or without, then I would not have many of the friends I have now because they include gays, lesbians, women I see as equals, alcoholics, members of religious and political groups not tolerated by others.

If you have religion and it does you good and does not cause intolerance of, or harm to, anyone else then good for you.

Christians who are ninjutsu or martial arts practitioners, sure, why not, but what happens to me when I go to a Christian Taekwondo school and I want the Taekwondo but not the Christian elements, what if I'm not even a Christian but a Muslim or Jew? Would I be welcome? Would my friends be welcome, even when they eventually outnumber the Christians in the Dojang?

If you want it summarised, I do not tolerate intolerance.
 

ElfTengu

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I guess as an ad adendum, that one of the main things I love about martial arts, and ninjutsu in particular, is that it is relatively free (or should be) of all the crap the rest of the world uses to segregate and separate.

I think that, apart from ceremonial references in some arts to bowing and ritual, religion, like race, creed, colour, gender etc should be left out of it.

If we end up with a Christian Karate school next door to a Muslim Karate school next door to a Jewish Karate school, then it has all gone horribly horribly wrong.
 

Tez3

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I also had heard that joke and told it. It is a funny one. Shingon Buddhism has some hilarious parables in its actual teachings which is probably why it appeals to me.

The abbot sees his disciple sitting cross legged on the ground and asks what he is doing.

"I am going to become a Buddha" says the disciple.

Later the disciple is walking along and sees the abbot rubbing a brick and a rock together vigorously, and asks his master what he is doing.

"I am rubbing this brick with a rock to make it into a mirror" says the abbot.

"But master, no amount of rubbing that brick with a rock will turn it into a mirror" cries the student.

"Yes" says the abbot, "And no amount of sitting cross legged on the ground will turn you into a Buddha!"

anyway:

I did not mean to cause offence, and hope I did not. I was reacting to the thread turning into an AA meeting for people to stand up and proclaim their own religious belief and martial art.

Of course someone with faith 'knows' that god exists, just as atheists 'know' he doesn't and agnostics aren't sure one way or the other.

If I'm wrong and I get to the pearly gates, I would expect to be let in for my conduct in life, rather than my faith and worship, and I would expect preferential treatment over a Jew, Christian etc who had committed many wrongs in life, because to me a religion is about your conduct and treatment of your fellow man and the planet entrusted to us, regardless of faith, bowing, praying, kneeling, abstinence from sex, alcohol, beef or bacon. Although if God made us in his own image then he must have a lot of faults too! :D

But you can be a good Christian and yet enforce the rules of the money lenders, putting innocent people out of their homes and barely able to feed themselves, but as long as you go to church everything will be fine. You can be a Christian, Jewish or Muslim world leader and order military attacks that will unavoidably cause the deaths of children, and still believe that you will be welcomed into Paradise, but for the Christian and Jewish leaders alone they are not permitted to kill, and I don't recall a list of exceptions in the Old Testament. Do we turn the other cheek against terrorists, do we say, "go on then, blow something else up", or do we bomb their nations and kill their children?

I wouldn't even class myself as an atheist or agnostic, in some ways I wish I did have faith, although whether it would benefit me or cloud my judgement I don't know. Certainly if I had been born in certain countries under certain regimes, where religious fervour is drilled into you until you don't know if your faith came from within or without, then I would not have many of the friends I have now because they include gays, lesbians, women I see as equals, alcoholics, members of religious and political groups not tolerated by others.

If you have religion and it does you good and does not cause intolerance of, or harm to, anyone else then good for you.

Christians who are ninjutsu or martial arts practitioners, sure, why not, but what happens to me when I go to a Christian Taekwondo school and I want the Taekwondo but not the Christian elements, what if I'm not even a Christian but a Muslim or Jew? Would I be welcome? Would my friends be welcome, even when they eventually outnumber the Christians in the Dojang?

If you want it summarised, I do not tolerate intolerance.


Ooo you have some odd ideas about my religion lol! We aren't permitted to murder but killing enemies or to save lives is fine and Jews don't go to heaven..or hell. We go nowhere, dead is dead until the final day. We don't eat pork because it's unclean not specifcally for religious reasons, pork in hot countries tends to be a no no.
We don't as far as far as I know have any Jewish martial arts schools here but we do have Jewish schools to which all children or any or no faith are welcome, I know there's Muslim pupils at them so there's no reason to think anyone wouldn't be welcome if we were to have Jewish martial arts schools and clubs.
I think a lot of Christian activities, clubs etc are designed to bring in converts, it seems to be a big thing in Christianity that they have to talk, preach and generally want everyone to join them. I can't see it being practical in our club, if you can talk you aren't working hard enough!
At our shows though when we have Muslim fighters we do have a room put aside for them to pray in, we even have rather beautiful prayer mats my chief instructor brought back from Pakistan. To me thats just being polite and yes I get on well with the fighterss a couple of whom are from Iran and Afghanistan. Tolerance is actually quite easy when you try.
 

Tez3

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I guess as an ad adendum, that one of the main things I love about martial arts, and ninjutsu in particular, is that it is relatively free (or should be) of all the crap the rest of the world uses to segregate and separate.

I think that, apart from ceremonial references in some arts to bowing and ritual, religion, like race, creed, colour, gender etc should be left out of it.

If we end up with a Christian Karate school next door to a Muslim Karate school next door to a Jewish Karate school, then it has all gone horribly horribly wrong.

I do Korean and Japanese karate but don't know Jewish karate. Do you think we'd shout 'Oi Vay' for the kiai?
 

Kajowaraku

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I think I should clarify a few things too. Firstly, i did not mean any offense or disrespect to any religion. So i'll explain the remarks i made jokingly, to point out they were generally more about ninpo than Christianity.

it's all about how you respond to an attack! Tai sabaki and turning the other cheek :). .

That's actually what you do when you evade with sayu sabaki; turning the other cheek... you shift from one side to the other, but sideways, thus effectively turning one cheek to face the attacker. (I hate explaining jokes, but still, if it avoids people feeling offended i guess i have a moral obligation to at least try).

In fact the character nin stands for enduring great difficulty with patience and resolve (something in that general direction). Sounds very Christian to me. "Rejoice! For blesseth are those who suffer".

Yes well, this one has two aspects. Firstly, I live in a Catholic country, so the focus on suffering to reach heaven and all that is a bit bigger i than in evangelist countries I suppose. Secondly, it takes time and suffering, over and over again to get good at anything, be it martial arts or spiritual perfection. The reason i mentioned it specifically (which people here couldn't know) is because i gave Bruno a "hard time" at training by simply practicing a basic block from scratch. Also we're both breaking our backs trying to get at least moderatly proficient at koho and zenpo tenkai, which involves alot of falling on your head / back. This was perhaps more of an inside joke, many apologies to all people experiencing christianity as a joyful experience. I probably got the wrong message across.


Also i Imagine the walkin on water ninja trick can be likened to christianity with some imagination.

Actually, looking at all the "evidence" I actually believe Christ might have been a ninja!

Well, ninja are reputed to walk on water using floatation devices. Christ was basicly better at it according to scripture. Obviously, i do not really believe christ was a ninja, and i was kidding. If some people find jokes about Jezus offensive; I apologise. No offense was intended. In this country people are quite secular in their ideas. Makes it easy to forget some people come from areas that feel much stronger about their religion. Again; pardon me for being an infidel, i did not mean to mock anybodies faith.

Seriously now, people will always see parallels and connections where there are none whatesover, just because they want to see those links, or because it's good marketing. Not sure which is most applicable here.

It's a bit like Tez said; often this sort of meetings is for recruiting new converts. Somehow "Ninja's of the Lord" sounds a bit funny when you put it in the same box as Christian bookclubs, christian cycling clubs, christian bridge clubs, or what have you.


Although when you look at the deeper spiritual dimension of Ninpo and especially amatsu tatara, alot of parallels become obvious. This is why we actually do pray before class. It's just not a Christian prayer, but shintoist chant.

Anyway, i felt i should take the time to clarify a few things, especially that no disrespect was intended at all (although upon rereading my post i realise it could be interpreted in such a way much to easily, so that was definatly worth a "mea culpa".)

peace.

btw, isn't krav maga at least somewhat like jewish karate (except for the hitting people with riflebutts at least).
 
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