What is that group claiming to be Christian ninja?

[Tez3]

I think I should clarify a few things too. Firstly, i did not mean any offense or disrespect to any religion. So i'll explain the remarks i made jokingly, to point out they were generally more about ninpo than Christianity.



That's actually what you do when you evade with sayu sabaki; turning the other cheek... you shift from one side to the other, but sideways, thus effectively turning one cheek to face the attacker. (I hate explaining jokes, but still, if it avoids people feeling offended i guess i have a moral obligation to at least try).



Yes well, this one has two aspects. Firstly, I live in a Catholic country, so the focus on suffering to reach heaven and all that is a bit bigger i than in evangelist countries I suppose. Secondly, it takes time and suffering, over and over again to get good at anything, be it martial arts or spiritual perfection. The reason i mentioned it specifically (which people here couldn't know) is because i gave Bruno a "hard time" at training by simply practicing a basic block from scratch. Also we're both breaking our backs trying to get at least moderatly proficient at koho and zenpo tenkai, which involves alot of falling on your head / back. This was perhaps more of an inside joke, many apologies to all people experiencing christianity as a joyful experience. I probably got the wrong message across.




Well, ninja are reputed to walk on water using floatation devices. Christ was basicly better at it according to scripture. Obviously, i do not really believe christ was a ninja, and i was kidding. If some people find jokes about Jezus offensive; I apologise. No offense was intended. In this country people are quite secular in their ideas. Makes it easy to forget some people come from areas that feel much stronger about their religion. Again; pardon me for being an infidel, i did not mean to mock anybodies faith.



It's a bit like Tez said; often this sort of meetings is for recruiting new converts. Somehow "Ninja's of the Lord" sounds a bit funny when you put it in the same box as Christian bookclubs, christian cycling clubs, christian bridge clubs, or what have you.


Although when you look at the deeper spiritual dimension of Ninpo and especially amatsu tatara, alot of parallels become obvious. This is why we actually do pray before class. It's just not a Christian prayer, but shintoist chant.

Anyway, i felt i should take the time to clarify a few things, especially that no disrespect was intended at all (although upon rereading my post i realise it could be interpreted in such a way much to easily, so that was definatly worth a "mea culpa".)

peace.

btw, isn't krav maga at least somewhat like jewish karate (except for the hitting people with riflebutts at least).

Well I for one wasn't insulted lol!
I was thinking though, during our training G-d does get mentioned a lot...when one is hurting lol! Even Jesus gets mentioned. I feel being a Catholic and being able to cross myself every time I get picked to be uke would be useful, certainly a prayer is offered up at that point! does the expression there's no atheist under fire come into play here too, there's no atheist when the chief instructor is using you as uke to demonstrate chokes, arm bars and my pet hate ankle locks and calf crushes?

Mmm.... KM could well be Jewish karate lol! But only if your mother lets you do it!

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Historically it is doubtful that there were any Christian Ninja.

It is interesting to note when Christianity was brought to Japan that the Christians translated God as Dainichi which is the Buddha in Shingon. So people thought it was a new form of Buddhism.

http://www.east-asian-history.net/textbooks/480/ch17.htm

As for modern times with Christianity Ninjutsu schools I think religious faith should be outside of the Dojo. But there does exist the bowing to the Kamidana and hand clapping:
http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=800

 

[ElfTengu]

Ooo you have some odd ideas about my religion lol! We aren't permitted to murder but killing enemies or to save lives is fine and Jews don't go to heaven..or hell. We go nowhere, dead is dead until the final day. We don't eat pork because it's unclean not specifcally for religious reasons, pork in hot countries tends to be a no no.
We don't as far as far as I know have any Jewish martial arts schools here but we do have Jewish schools to which all children or any or no faith are welcome, I know there's Muslim pupils at them so there's no reason to think anyone wouldn't be welcome if we were to have Jewish martial arts schools and clubs.
I think a lot of Christian activities, clubs etc are designed to bring in converts, it seems to be a big thing in Christianity that they have to talk, preach and generally want everyone to join them. I can't see it being practical in our club, if you can talk you aren't working hard enough!
At our shows though when we have Muslim fighters we do have a room put aside for them to pray in, we even have rather beautiful prayer mats my chief instructor brought back from Pakistan. To me thats just being polite and yes I get on well with the fighterss a couple of whom are from Iran and Afghanistan. Tolerance is actually quite easy when you try.

I wasn't picking on any particular religion which is why I tried to provide Christian and Muslim examples too. I was aware of the reasoning behind the pork and judgement day elements too.

It's just the 'killing to save lives' bit that I personally believe is vastly abused and not intended for justification of the military action of entire governments. I believe for example that this so-called war on terror has created far more terrorists than there would ever had been if it had not been initiated, and there will still be more than enough of them to blow us all to kingdom come when we do finally pull out of their nations.

Killing one gunman in a shopping mall, fine. Killing his entire family, village etc because you are entirely sure where he is, is not fine, because not only is he not actively trying to kill you when he is sleeping in his own bed, but he is surrounded by innocents, often too young to understand any of it, and they simply do not deserve to die when there is no concrete evidence that a single life would be saved by their death.

Funny how we didn't destroy entire Northern Irish village with air strikes during the 'Troubles' but when it comes to other races we are fine with pretty much indiscriminate blanket bombing.

And strange how we imprison and rehabilitate murderers from our own communities but resort to torture and try to wipe out entire bloodlines when the murderers are foreigners.

I am glad you make provisions for followers of other faiths, it sets an excellent example, and if we all followed it our nations would have less enemies.

I will get down off my soapbox, leaving this song resounding in your collective consciouses:

"War, what is it good for, absolutely nothing, say it again"

(whichever version you prefer, even the Frankie Goes To Hollywood version if you like)

 

[Archangel M]

"War, what is it good for, absolutely nothing, say it again"

It was good for liberating a large chunk of the world in the 1940's.

 

[ElfTengu]

It was good for liberating a large chunk of the world in the 1940's.

I shouldn't really argue with an archangel about religion, but I believe two bombs and the threat of a third pretty much ended the war. A war, like a fight, suggests two protagonists, but the A-bomb made things so one-sided it was hardly a war any more, any more than ants can fight back against a kettle of boiling water.

If the scientists had pulled their fingers out and built them earlier a lot of lives on the ground might have been saved. I also heard that the Japanese surrendered before the second bomb was dropped but don't know if there is any truth in that.

I also wonder if dropping the bombs on an uninhabited island would have made enough of a point to gain a surrender.

I also often wonder how many martial arts and their masters died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

 

[Archangel M]

We didnt drop any A-bombs on Europe and Japan would have eventually fallen, with probably far more casualties than the Bombs inflicted.

Sometimes war IS the only answer.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I shouldn't really argue with an archangel about religion, but I believe two bombs and the threat of a third pretty much ended the war. A war, like a fight, suggests two protagonists, but the A-bomb made things so one-sided it was hardly a war any more, any more than ants can fight back against a kettle of boiling water.?

The one sided ness is not an argument if you want to end conflict.
Months of firebombing are just as gruesome. The difference is that this carnage was combined in 2 single booms.

If the scientists had pulled their fingers out and built them earlier a lot of lives on the ground might have been saved. I also heard that the Japanese surrendered before the second bomb was dropped but don't know if there is any truth in that.

Despite what popular fiction might have you believe, making an A bomb is not trivial. Developing it from scratch without anyone ever having worked out the problems before is a gargantuous task.
On top of that, as a country, you have to allocate a good chunk of your resources to the task to enrich the raw material, perform nuclear tests, build them, train the crew, provide several layers of operational security...
Given the time and the circumstances, I don't think at al that the scientists were just loafing around. This effort in so little time would not have been justifiable in peace time.

About the surrender... this is still food for debate. Some people say that Japan was already destroyed and activelty seeking surrender, while others say that Japan wanted a negotiated peace, with their government left intact. I do not know which is true, for I am not a historian.

I have heard from Japanese friends that they were convinced Japan would not have given up without the bombs, and that some of them were even surprised that they gave up 'already' after the second one. IF this is true, then the alternative would have been much more costly in human lives, on both sides. We also have the luxury of time to argue about this for years.
I don't know one way or the other.

I also wonder if dropping the bombs on an uninhabited island would have made enough of a point to gain a surrender.

Perhaps. But war censorship being what it is, it is not certain that the right people or the world at large would have found out.
The one good thing out of these bombs is that people were so mortified by the results of 'mere' 20Kton bombs, that thankfully noone ever deployed a multi megaton thermonuclear bomb / warhead.
Personally I believe that had they not been deployed, sooner or later someone would have been the first, but using a much more powerful weapon.

I also often wonder how many martial arts and their masters died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Too many. But it is not limited to martial arts.
The first person to come up with a practical solution for the general theory of relativity was a Russian man who died as a soldier, a short time later.
In any war, the world loses more than just the body count.

It was good for liberating a large chunk of the world in the 1940's.

Yes and no. If Germany / Japan hadn't attacked first, there wouldn't have been a war, thus no need for liberation.

 

[Archangel M]

War may not be "good" for anything...but at times its necessary.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Ok somehow we started at Christian Ninjutsu and we've arrived at the A bomb and whether it was justified.
It might not be a bad idea to revert back to the topic if there is anything left to be said, or continue this discussion in the study.

 

[Tez3]

Ok somehow we started at Christian Ninjutsu and we've arrived at the A bomb and whether it was justified.
It might not be a bad idea to revert back to the topic if there is anything left to be said, or continue this discussion in the study.

what he said!!

 

[ElfTengu]

Agreed, let's get back on topic. Give me a cold war rather than a hot one any day.

I'm for leaving religion outside the dojo. As long as respect isn't left outside with it then all should be okay.

I just deleted a paragraph about equality between the sexes in some faiths and the link to participation in martial arts, but it would not be particularly helpful.

Cultural differences are probably more of an issue than religious ones anyway, showing the soles of your feet is offensive to some cultures, ruffling the hair of a child is tantamount to assault in many parts of Asia, and refusing to bow in Japan would be very rude indeed.

As for religious ritual I don't see the bowing in ceremony as religious, and have heard more anecdotes of people from other faiths happily bowing away and clapping hands than finding it an affront to their religious beliefs. I heard one account where a Muslim cheerfully did the full thing and said that as long as his God was in his heart it weas okay. I also doubt if more than 5% of taijutsu students are even aware why they bow and chant and what the link is to Shinto and Buddhism.

My fiancée's aunt, a Servite sister (a nun, but this isn't a joke) was ordered to bow to Idi Amin, or face the consequences. Sister Mary, as she is known, told her nuns to imagine Amin was not there, and that they were in a chapel. She then quietly said "Let us pray", and down they knelt, without compromising their faith or offending the dictator.

Christian ninja in olde Japan? If there were Christians in Japan and there were ninja in Japan then you can never entirely rule it out.

As for Christian ninja groups in the modern world, see my much earlier comment about liars.

I was determined not to be inflammatory on MT, but some subjects just get my dander up!

 

[ElfTengu]

http://www.acdainc.org/SRN/Founders_Bio.html

Wrong!

http://www.********************/faq.php

The less said the better. No comment, no lawsuit.

http://www.4defend.com/about-history-ninjutsu.html

Sigh.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090225085622AAAaXvt

?? lol

 

[blindsage]

http://www.acdainc.org/SRN/Founders_Bio.html

Wrong!

Therefore, to fulfill the call of God on his life, he has through divine
guidance created the American Christian Defense Alliance, Inc. and with the help of his students, the martial art system called Seisho Ryu Ninjutsu.

Through the grace of God Anthony claims, "I am what
I am -nothing more, nothing less- Just a founder" Anthony allows his skills
and abilities speak for themselves rather than paper certificates.

However, Anthony has received certification as the founder of Seisho Ryu
Ninjutsu from the American Christian Defense Alliance, Inc. Board of
Directors.

LOL, what? He's certified as the founder of his system by the organization he created? But, paper certificates don't mean anything anyway? lolerskates!

 

[ElfTengu]

I believe it was Ghandi who said:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

In so many ways that embodies my entire existence.

 

[Hudson69]

Sorry I miss spoke when I posted this originally and should have been much more specific.... A few months ago while looking for gear I came across a web site about a ninjutsu group/sect/clan billing itself as originating from the Ainu (phonetic spelling), the indiginous caucasion people of Japan, and Christian based and being a original ninjutsu group.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, do you have any actual information you wanted our opinion on? A name, the website you found maybe? Because I think we went through most of the ones we thought you may have refered to two months ago, and if it's not there, you may need to be a bit more forthcoming...

 

[Bruno@MT]

It could be the one that has sued forum posters for talking about them and questioning their legitimacy.
The name is actually a censored word in this forum. I think they are mentioned in one of the stickies, though perhaps not by name.
I seem to recall that they also claim to be 'christian ninja'

See here for more details:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30855

Though the name is censored there are well. If you have an e-budo account you can follow the referenced URLs.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Sorry I miss spoke when I posted this originally and should have been much more specific.... A few months ago while looking for gear I came across a web site about a ninjutsu group/sect/clan billing itself as originating from the Ainu (phonetic spelling), the indiginous caucasion people of Japan, and Christian based and being a original ninjutsu group.

I doubt the Ainu have a Ninjutsu group and for the most part believed in Animism(belief that everything has a spirit similar to Shinto.
I am sure some Ainu followed Russian Orthodox seeing as were Hokkaido is located but IMO it is a stretch for Ninjutsu. But maybe someone else knows something I do not.