What is "American Ninjutsu"

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Shizen Shigoku

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Enson: "...why does a simple internet forum have to be so politically correct. why can't someone that obviously disagrees with whatever system just stay away? i don't think "jkd" should be a real style... but if the practicioners want to have a forum... so be it. i'm not saying not to question things... but... does it really make a difference to you? you want to impress someone with all your knowledge... place yourself apart in your training and in what you teach. not jump on every practicioner of the style you disagree with. that to me is silly and immature."

You are completely missing the point. The disagreements from the traditionalists have nothing to do with political correctness, impressing people with knowledge, segregation, 'jumping on practicioners,' or disagreeing with style.

It is really, really simple, and I'm amazed that it is so hard to understand. Ninjutsu is a Japanese word with a specific definition that refers to a particular group of arts. If someone calls what they do ninjutsu, when it is not ninjutsu, then they are lying to people. That's it. It's that simple. That is the only complaint.

If someone teaches kung fu and calls it karate, they are lying to people. No matter how nice they are, how effective their style is, or how happy their students are. The fact remains that they are ok with deceiving and misleading people, and that is a problem. It hints to underlying character traits that many people find objectionable.

"The trad. folk wanted us out of jma section... "

For obvious reasons: Discussing non Japanese arts.

"they said as long as we were out of their area we could talk about our styles in freedom... "

I don't remember seeing anyone say that.

"...those that do not study... buj, gen, jen, kling whatever... are not in the jma section... "

Because they are not Japanese in origin, so it only makes sense...

"...we still get hammered."

Why do you think that is?

"...what one must understand is that the styles practiced here are not trying to be the buj. why compare what is being done?"

Again, completely beside the point. Comparisons are irrelevant.

"... if the practicioners thought the buj was superior... they would pay the buj fee and ....."

Irrelevant.

"... now we are being told ninjutsu should not be even mentioned when it comes to our arts."

Why do you think that is?

Really. ?

Segregation? Please, that has nothing to do with it. This has nothing to do with "we are better, you suck" so we want to keep everybody separate. Ninjutsu is a Japanese art that is discussed in a Japanese art section, everything else that is not Japanese, and is not ninjutsu, shouldn't be discussed in a Japanse art section, and it should not be called ninjutsu. If the founders of these other arts just didn't lie to people, there would be no complaints.

"... american ninjutsu is something that is done in america. why is that so hard for people to accept."

I accept that American arts are done in America, I accept that there are people practicing ninjutsu in America. I do not accept that there are people practicing non-ninjutsu in America and calling it ninjutsu.

"... they state the obvious saying "thats not the way its done in japan, or thats not japanese ninjutsu what you guys are doing"... who cares? not me! i for one am not trying to be a buj practicioner or any other style."

Still irrelevant. It is obvious isn't it? You don't have to be in the buj' but if you're not or not in one of its derivatives, then you are simply not doing ninjutsu. It's a shame that the only authentic ninjutsu left in the world flows from Hatsumi sensei, but that's just the way it is.

I read the article by Mr. Tew -

"A[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif] paper trail will not help you to survive a life or death situation. Just because you are born or bred as part of a lineage does not mean you will succeed either. "[/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]Irrelevant. Discussing effectiveness and authenticity of lineage in the same sentence is meaningless, they are two completely separate issues.[/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]"History in the martial arts dictates that there is a tendency to see the East as the primary source of martial traditions, but the East does not have a monopoly on fighting arts .."[/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]Obvious, yet obfuscating. Again it is besides the point. No one is saying that an art has to come from Japan to be real or effective. [/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]"We teach under the system of Martial Science – which happens to be an American System regardless of any monopolies or influence foreign instructors have ..."[/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]No one is saying he can't call what he does Martial Science. That is an accurate name. He can even say that the science is based on or influenced by ninjutsu. Nothing wrong with that. But calling it American Ninjutsu is rediculous.[/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]"The English created "Cricket" which we turned into "Baseball" and it is now as American as Apple Pie. "[/font]​


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]Yes, but Americans don't call what they do American Cricket.[/font]​


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]"Have you heard of Football, Basketball or Baseball? So who is to say that we don't have the ability to develop or enhance any foreign concept?"[/font]​


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]Ever heard of anyone playing American Football and calling it Rugby?[/font]​


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]The rest of the article was very nice but continued to throw in "effectiveness is more important than authenticity" as a red herring to the primary issue. It also made the common accusation that traditional systems are outdated, when in fact they have been evolving just as much as the Modern or American systems (but have been doing so for far longer).[/font]​


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]All in all, it was a long, fallacy-filled excuse for getting away with lying to people.[/font]​
 

Enson

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Shizen Shigoku said:
You are completely missing the point. The disagreements from the traditionalists have nothing to do with political correctness, impressing people with knowledge, segregation, 'jumping on practicioners,' or disagreeing with style.
maybe not for you but... you barely joined mt. at first there were people saying we should be called modern ninjutsu and then they wanted the name modern too. like a spoiled cousin of mine who not only wanted his toy but mine too.

It is really, really simple, and I'm amazed that it is so hard to understand. Ninjutsu is a Japanese word with a specific definition that refers to a particular group of arts. If someone calls what they do ninjutsu, when it is not ninjutsu, then they are lying to people. That's it. It's that simple. That is the only complaint.
and pizza is a italian food yet we still seem to eat it up. doesn't matter who's variation it is. its that simple ;)
If someone teaches kung fu and calls it karate, they are lying to people. No matter how nice they are, how effective their style is, or how happy their students are. The fact remains that they are ok with deceiving and misleading people, and that is a problem. It hints to underlying character traits that many people find objectionable.
yet there is american karate... epak and others... okinawan karate, japanese karate... kenpo, kempo, vallari, miyagi do karate (from the karate kid),etc. wierd huh? now are all these people misleading too?
For obvious reasons: Discussing non Japanese arts.
okay
I don't remember seeing anyone say that.
haven't been here long.
Because they are not Japanese in origin, so it only makes sense...
so are many concepts that japanese have... asian influence. so they shouldn't make cars and call them "japanese cars" because that is an american idea. or have electricity, etc.
Why do you think that is?
i think i stated why already. some people just don't like what we do and would like us to play by their rules. they don't see they are in a different ball park.
Again, completely beside the point. Comparisons are irrelevant.
and yet some from your school are so bent on trying to find them... weird again.:idunno:
"... if the practicioners thought the buj was superior... they would pay the buj fee and ....."

Irrelevant.
i don't think so

"... now we are being told ninjutsu should not be even mentioned when it comes to our arts."

Why do you think that is?

Really. ?
because elitism runs wild in people that would like to have even their own name trademarked. its just a title... why use it? why would you? if the word ninjutsu is being used by the wannabes :rolleyes: they why don't you change? "we did its called buji", okay why argue if someone is using a name you abandoned?

Segregation? Please, that has nothing to do with it. This has nothing to do with "we are better, you suck" so we want to keep everybody separate.
funny how you automatically said you were better first. just thought i would point that out. now sit back and think on why you worded it this way.
Ninjutsu is a Japanese art that is discussed in a Japanese art section, everything else that is not Japanese, and is not ninjutsu, shouldn't be discussed in a Japanse art section, and it should not be called ninjutsu. If the founders of these other arts just didn't lie to people, there would be no complaints.
then we shouldn't be able to speak other languages, wear italian suites, make greek food,... it gets ridiculous after awhile.
and sure there would be complaints. "you are using a katana" thats our sword... when will it stop? i have a gut feeling a long time from now or maybe never.
accept that American arts are done in America, I accept that there are people practicing ninjutsu in America. I do not accept that there are people practicing non-ninjutsu in America and calling it ninjutsu.
well you might have to learn how to deal with it... for the sun will rise tomorrow. accept it or not, your opinion here... although well stated will not change the mind of my sensei or hayes, bussey, bussey offshoots. so why lose sleep? just accept there are things you can't change.

Still irrelevant. It is obvious isn't it? You don't have to be in the buj' but if you're not or not in one of its derivatives, then you are simply not doing ninjutsu. It's a shame that the only authentic ninjutsu left in the world flows from Hatsumi sensei, but that's just the way it is.
no more taco bell for you... in fact you can't eat hamburgers either because you arn't the one that invented it! ha ha! :rofl:
it is a shame... you are missing out on expanding your list of friends if you believe that the only source of ninjutsu is hatsumi.

I read the article by Mr. Tew -
good

"A[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif] paper trail will not help you to survive a life or death situation. Just because you are born or bred as part of a lineage does not mean you will succeed either. "[/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]Irrelevant. Discussing effectiveness and authenticity of lineage in the same sentence is meaningless, they are two completely separate issues.[/font]
your opinion of course


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]
[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]"History in the martial arts dictates that there is a tendency to see the East as the primary source of martial traditions, but the East does not have a monopoly on fighting arts .."[/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]Obvious, yet obfuscating. Again it is besides the point. No one is saying that an art has to come from Japan to be real [/font]
the only authentic ninjutsu left in the world flows from Hatsumi sensei,
your words not mine</B></FONT>

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]
[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]"We teach under the system of Martial Science – which happens to be an American System regardless of any monopolies or influence foreign instructors have ..."[/font]


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]No one is saying he can't call what he does Martial Science. That is an accurate name. He can even say that the science is based on or influenced by ninjutsu. Nothing wrong with that. But calling it American Ninjutsu is rediculous.[/font]
he does... its like learning american ninjutsu or an american version of ninjutsu.
[/font]

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]​
[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]"The English created "Cricket" which we turned into "Baseball" and it is now as American as Apple Pie. "[/font]​

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]Yes, but Americans don't call what they do American Cricket.[/font]​
don't count it out​
[/font]​

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]​
[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]"Have you heard of Football, Basketball or Baseball? So who is to say that we don't have the ability to develop or enhance any foreign concept?"[/font]​

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]Ever heard of anyone playing American Football and calling it Rugby?[/font]​
when i lived in costa rica i learned that they call soccer football... since it came to america the name was changed... like the buj.;) that is so weird though because we play "american football" and its different but still football... the country where football was derived should sue. imagine the settlement? we are using their word!​
[/font]​

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]​
[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]The rest of the article was very nice but continued to throw in "effectiveness is more important than authenticity" as a red herring to the primary issue. It also made the common accusation that traditional systems are outdated, when in fact they have been evolving just as much as the Modern or American systems (but have been doing so for far longer).[/font]​
irrelevant! hee hee![/font]​



[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]​
[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]All in all, it was a long, fallacy-filled excuse for getting away with lying to people.[/font]​
look at the totalwarrior website... or anyone else you see is lying... since you have stated all of that... did anything change? i can imagine it won't anytime in the near future. so why stress about something that your opinion can't change? just move on.
all in all. have fun with your training.
peace[/font]​
 

Kreth

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Enson said:
at first there were people saying we should be called modern ninjutsu and then they wanted the name modern too. like a spoiled cousin of mine who not only wanted his toy but mine too.
This is a bit inaccurate. What some of us traditionalists objected to was the fact that some of the modern practitioners like to paint traditionalists as practicing a stagnant art that is ineffective in the present.

Jeff
 

sojobow

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Don Roley said:
Nope. The correct assesment of the section you quoted is that what they did was called ninjutsu. Nothing you quoted says what you are trying to get people to believe.

And where do I start with your twisting of the Chinese angle.... :rolleyes:
Appreciate your opinion. But its quite simple; in plain English, it says ""As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. ..."

So: "the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu..." speaks for itself. Not trying to get people to believe anything in particular. Only trying to open Kaith's meetings to inputs available from sources he would consider well above my own.

If Ninjutsu is the ways of accomplishment of the Ninja, Neo's don't limit themselves to the study of only this artform so the term "Ninjutsu" shouldn't be a moniker for this section. You teach English so you should know that the sentence structure is quite clear on the definition. The definition may not be what you had hoped for, but it exist - from Hatsumi.

The is no twisting of the Chinese angle. Hatsumi only gave us what his teacher taught him. I posted his (Hatsumi's) explanation. No need of any "twisting." It (Hatsum's explanation) speaks clearly and is basically, what the Modern warriors also know. No secrets, no twisting, just facts. Feel free to take it up with your Soke. No need to 'start.' No need to continue with any dishonesty projections towards me. It is your Soke, it seems, you may need to confer with.

I'm really starting to like the little guy. The hightest member of the Genbuks also states basically the same explanation of the Chinese Connection. Don't think we're all dishonest do you?
 

DWeidman

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Enson said:
and pizza is a italian food yet we still seem to eat it up. doesn't matter who's variation it is. its that simple ;)
Good point. So what if I starting selling a roast-beef sandwhich and called it "Pizza" - is the fact that the sandwhich is good outweigh the fact that I lied? What about the other guy in town who sells "Pizza" - the real thing... is what I am doing have an associated influence on my customers (or people who aren't my customers - but know there is at least one HUGE LIAR in the "Pizza" business)? Weird, eh?
Enson said:
and sure there would be complaints. "you are using a katana" thats our sword... when will it stop?
Well - what if you are using a english long sword and calling it a "Katana" - would we be right to complain that you are WRONG with your word choice?

Enson said:
well you might have to learn how to deal with it... for the sun will rise tomorrow. accept it or not, your opinion here... although well stated will not change the mind of my sensei or hayes, bussey, bussey offshoots. so why lose sleep? just accept there are things you can't change.
Oh! Like rape and murder? They are going to happen - so just accept it. Even better - is that you are suggesting that we not call out liars and frauds when we see them - just accept that they exist and we can't change it.

Are you kidding me? (For what it is worth, there are all kinds of psycotic people who don't believe rape and murder are bad - should we just accept them and pretend it is ok for them to believe and act on their "beliefs"?)

I know I am using a stronger metaphor than is needed - but the argument that you are supporting is riddled with so many falacies that I don't even know where to start with it. Anyone with an adolescent's "common sense" should be able to shoot holes in that one, dude.

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]
Enson said:
look at the totalwarrior website... or anyone else you see is lying... since you have stated all of that... did anything change? i can imagine it won't anytime in the near future. so why stress about something that your opinion can't change? just move on.
Enson said:
You are right - I can't change Rick's mind. I can, however, inform the rest of the world (or those reading this website) that Rick's claims and the name of his "system" is on EXTREMELY shaky ground (and can't stand to even the most basic set of questions). I think that anyone doing research on your "school" should know about these things - don't you?​

Probably not - but since you can't change it - I guess you will just have to accept it.​

Cheers -​

-Daniel​
PS - actually - it would be even more appropriate to just straight out LIE about Rick. Why not? There are liars in the world - so you should just accept it (specifically if I "believe" I am right - right?)​
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Enson said:
and pizza is a italian food yet we still seem to eat it up. doesn't matter who's variation it is. its that simple ;)
In America, order a pizza, and you will be served a pizza.
In Italy, order a pizza, and you will be served a pizza.
This is not the case with "ninjutsu training".

Enson said:
yet there is american karate... epak and others... okinawan karate, japanese karate... kenpo, kempo, vallari, miyagi do karate (from the karate kid),etc. wierd huh? now are all these people misleading too?
Unlike karate, ninjutsu isn't about physical techniques.

Enson said:
so are many concepts that japanese have... asian influence. so they shouldn't make cars and call them "japanese cars" because that is an american idea. or have electricity, etc.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you were to teach an American version of the concept known in the Japanese language (which is spoken in Japan, funny enough) as ninjutsu, you'd be teaching methods of strategy, surveillance, informations gathering and espionage as done in Langley, for example. NOT a set of physical techniques.

Enson said:
they don't see they are in a different ball park.
Then what use is there in the word "ninjutsu"?

Enson said:
"we did its called buji", okay why argue if someone is using a name you abandoned?
Because its misleading?

Enson said:
funny how you automatically said you were better first. just thought i would point that out. now sit back and think on why you worded it this way.
:sadsong:

Enson said:
then we shouldn't be able to speak other languages, wear italian suites, make greek food,... it gets ridiculous after awhile.
You still don't want to face the fact that the "AN" interpretation of the word ninjutsu is an inaccurate one in respect to the language in which the term was coined!!

Enson said:
it is a shame... you are missing out on expanding your list of friends if you believe that the only source of ninjutsu is hatsumi.
Speaking up whenever you think something is wrong is indeed a good way to gain a lot of enemies.
It is also a great way to make REAL, albeit relatively few, truly good friends.

Enson said:
your opinion of course
Are you indicating that a historically inaccurate style is automatically more efficient than an accurate one?

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]
Enson said:
your words not mine
[/font]

He wrote "an art". That does not automatically imply that the art he was referring to was that of ninjutsu.


[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]
Enson said:
he does... its like learning american ninjutsu or an american version of ninjutsu.[/font]
How does an American interpretation of Japanese military tactics and strategy turn into bodily techniques with or without weapons along the way???

[font='Times New Roman', Times, Serif, serif]
Enson said:
irrelevant! hee hee!
[/font]​

Now you're contradicting yourself. See "your opinion of course".​
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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sojobow said:
Appreciate your opinion. But its quite simple; in plain English, it says ""As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. ..."

So: "the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu..." speaks for itself. Not trying to get people to believe anything in particular. Only trying to open Kaith's meetings to inputs available from sources he would consider well above my own.

If Ninjutsu is the ways of accomplishment of the Ninja, Neo's don't limit themselves to the study of only this artform so the term "Ninjutsu" shouldn't be a moniker for this section. You teach English so you should know that the sentence structure is quite clear on the definition. The definition may not be what you had hoped for, but it exist - from Hatsumi.

The is no twisting of the Chinese angle. Hatsumi only gave us what his teacher taught him. I posted his (Hatsumi's) explanation. No need of any "twisting." It (Hatsum's explanation) speaks clearly and is basically, what the Modern warriors also know. No secrets, no twisting, just facts. Feel free to take it up with your Soke. No need to 'start.' No need to continue with any dishonesty projections towards me. It is your Soke, it seems, you may need to confer with.

I'm really starting to like the little guy. The hightest member of the Genbuks also states basically the same explanation of the Chinese Connection. Don't think we're all dishonest do you?
It was Stephen Hayes's text, not Hatsumi sensei's!!
 

Enson

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boy, did i strike a nerve or what? good post guys... "you too should be a ninja!" (chris farley - beverly hills ninja)
 

Don Roley

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Nimravus said:
It was Stephen Hayes's text, not Hatsumi sensei's!!

Yep. And I think that if Sojobow were really interested in the truth, he would ask other people if they thought that the passage meant what he says it says (i.e. "Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments"), or if it is instead what I say it says (i.e. what they did was called ninjutsu). I am sure that the vast majority of people will go with what I say and not him.
 

DWeidman

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Enson said:
boy, did i strike a nerve or what? good post guys... "you too should be a ninja!" (chris farley - beverly hills ninja)
How about reflecting on what you wrote...

Weird how more than one of us has the EXACT same beef with your misconceptions...

Good post yourself.

-Daniel

"It is better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt..."
 

Shizen Shigoku

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I just wanted to say thank you to those that brought up the points in Enson's response to my post. After reading his attempt at a counter, all I could do was shake my head and sigh.

I've done all I could. The facts are on the table, take them or leave them as you wish.
 

Shizen Shigoku

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To further clarify:

What I don't want to do is repeat myself too much, so please reference these threads that previously covered the same ground:


Traditional / Neo: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17877

My opinions to be found in the following posts:

#24 (busting Aaron's balls :D): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=286909#post286909

#29 (comparison of traditional vs. "neo" hybrids): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=287198#post287198

#32 (more comparisons and clarifications): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=288069#post288069

& #54 (on use of the term, "ninja"): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=290781#post290781


Benefits / Drawbacks of Modern: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17421

My opinions to be found in the following posts:

#61 ("ninjutsu" vs "ninjitsu"): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=287525#post287525

#64 (on using the term, "ninjutsu"): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=288527#post288527

#121 (how I feel about the whole discussion): no link necessary

and to a lesser extent, #128 (why you don't want to cite me as a source to back up your claims): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=292747#post292747
 

Satt

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Nimravus said:
Why don't you ask Dean here if he agrees with Stephen Hayes's distinction between modern, "useful" training, and traditional budo taijutsu...? Page is in Croatian, but I think you get the point.

http://specwog.bujinkan.hr[/QUOTE]

I meant no disrespect to ANYONE. I was trying to be funny. Ouch, I guess I crashed and burned on that one eh??? The link I provided was just purely info for the curious to his point of view. Sorry if I offended anyone. I allways try not to. Oh, by the way, please only give me "good rep points". LOL. Thanx. Red is just not my color.
 

Satt

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Alright jerk. My signature is supposed to be a joke. Silly, he he, lol type of thing. Stop sending me bad reps and demanding I change it, especialy without signing it. I am allowed to set up my signature how I want. Who the hell are you anyway??? If someone of importance tells me I have to do something I will. Stop being a prick.
 
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