Ninjutsu

Mecha

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so, does this mean that all Koga Ryu Ninjutsu teachers are moot?
 

jks9199

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so, does this mean that all Koga Ryu Ninjutsu teachers are moot?
Pretty much.

At this point, it's my understanding that there are no historically verifiable ninjutsu ryu known to exist outside of Hatsumi's Bujinkan and related schools.

It's possible that there's a system that's been kept in the family and passed down very, very quietly -- but I'd be skeptical of anyone making a claim like that, unless they can provide a lot of support for their claim. Too often, it's linked with claims like "my secret teacher forbid me to give his name" or "the samurai destroyed all the records..." Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, and anybody claiming to have a previously undocumented ninjutsu ryu is making a pretty extraordinary claim.
 

Mecha

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Pretty much.

At this point, it's my understanding that there are no historically verifiable ninjutsu ryu known to exist outside of Hatsumi's Bujinkan and related schools.

It's possible that there's a system that's been kept in the family and passed down very, very quietly -- but I'd be skeptical of anyone making a claim like that, unless they can provide a lot of support for their claim. Too often, it's linked with claims like "my secret teacher forbid me to give his name" or "the samurai destroyed all the records..." Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, and anybody claiming to have a previously undocumented ninjutsu ryu is making a pretty extraordinary claim.

ive looked in my sensai's office, he has alot of tournament things, as well as an offical looking document about ninjutsu certification, its all in japanese with some english, and it looks old. there have also been a long line of koga ryu ninjutsu teachers at my dojo, 3 of which were japanese, i dont know if that adds to the verification or not. he is a 2nd degree blackbelt in ninjutsu, and has mastered 8 weapons. (has the red bar to proove it)

ill try to get a picture of the certification, or ask him about it.

i really hope he is legit :(


(he is also a nidan in shotokan karate, Shodan in Musu*Shinden Ryu Iaido and a Red belt in Daito Ryu Aikido)
 

Don Roley

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ive looked in my sensai's office, he has alot of tournament things, as well as an offical looking document about ninjutsu certification, its all in japanese with some english, and it looks old. there have also been a long line of koga ryu ninjutsu teachers at my dojo, 3 of which were japanese, i dont know if that adds to the verification or not. he is a 2nd degree blackbelt in ninjutsu, and has mastered 8 weapons. (has the red bar to proove it)

ill try to get a picture of the certification, or ask him about it.

i really hope he is legit :(


(he is also a nidan in shotokan karate, Shodan in Musu*Shinden Ryu Iaido and a Red belt in Daito Ryu Aikido)

Well, maybe you should start a thread about your teacher and have us comment on it. But if you look at the following thread you can see that I have been looking for another ninjutsu school- but have been pretty much disapointed.

We have had a lot of people try to convince us that they studied ninjutsu here. Not one has proven to be telling the truth. There have been some like Bruce Calkins that said that their teacher showed them proof (in Calkins case- pictures of his teacher training with Hatsumi) but then it turned out that they could not even prove their teacher existed or that they were ever a student of him.

But a lot of people have been fooled by frauds and are quite willing to give their names. Sometimes this ends in flame wars as they refuse to admit they were fooled. But sometimes we get lucky and they come to realize the truth. I do not know how your case will work out. But if you start a thread about your teacher, maybe we can look into the matter.
 

jks9199

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ive looked in my sensai's office, he has alot of tournament things, as well as an offical looking document about ninjutsu certification, its all in japanese with some english, and it looks old. there have also been a long line of koga ryu ninjutsu teachers at my dojo, 3 of which were japanese, i dont know if that adds to the verification or not. he is a 2nd degree blackbelt in ninjutsu, and has mastered 8 weapons. (has the red bar to proove it)

ill try to get a picture of the certification, or ask him about it.

i really hope he is legit :(


(he is also a nidan in shotokan karate, Shodan in Musu*Shinden Ryu Iaido and a Red belt in Daito Ryu Aikido)

I'm not saying your teacher isn't legitimately teaching what he was taught by someone... But there's just no documented current & valid source of instruction in Koga ryu ninjutsu.

Aside from that... Tournament trophies don't really prove much. I can buy as many as I want. Neither do "official looking documents" if you can't read what they really say.

Ask your teacher about the ninjutsu lineage. If there isn't a relatively recent or direct link to Japan... There's probably a problem.

Like I said -- your teacher may not be at fault. If I teach you la savate (just to really get into left field for the example!) mixed with a little bit of material extracted from US Army manuals on camoflauge and tell you it's ninjutsu, it's not your fault when you tell someone else that you've learned ninjutsu. As far as you know -- you have. And something similar may have happened with your teacher.
 

Zida'sukara

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This is making it very hard for me, as I explained in my introduction, I am looking for a school again in the Netherlands. My former teacher was in my eyes a very good teacher. He did and does not like to make commercials about his school and does not have a website. Even on the big Bujinkan sites you can hardly find his school only by big searching.

A lot of people that trained under him a few times said that they did not like the training very much because his training was boring. My teacher said that he did not wanted to train people who would loose their interest only because they dont get taught Movie-like with a lot of weapons. I did not find the lessons boring at all and his very quiet way of doing is actually proving that he is at least not out to get cash and he is looking at it very seriously.

In all these years that I have been away, I contacted him a few times after a few years to tell him how things were going, that I did not forget about Ninjutsu and that I will come back after I have closed some parts in my live. I simpely love the man, he has a warm character and you can feel his wisdom only by looking at him. I think I will get a big shock when I would find out that he is not a real teacher. (my feeling are telling me that this is not the case)

Of course I rather go to my old teacher but it is simpely to far driving for a weekly training.

So, I have to decide between two other schools which are both located in the same city. Wouldnt it be very strange and offending when I ask the new teacher if he can show me his teacher license the first day we meet?
 

SageGhost83

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I PM'd Mr. Hubbard about this one. Does "authentic" ninjutsu even exist anymore? I seriously doubt it due to the nature of old ninjutsu and its original practitioners to begin with. Everybody has their take or angle on it, and I personally think that we are practicing modern reinterpretations of ninjutsu, not "authentic" ninjutsu. "Authentic" ninjutsu has been lost to antiquity. No living person has been verified by the japanese martial authorities to be ninja or to be connected to the actual lineage/tradition. Hatsumi's claims have even been questioned as noone has been able to verify them, so for all that we know, he could be blowing smoke up our collective wazoo. From what I have seen of the various systems, they are all nice and they look fun to practice. So do what you love and don't worry about it, I guess. Maybe we will start new traditions that are "authentic" in their own right. The past isn't the be all end all, we can start something in our own time that is just as special.
 

Don Roley

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I PM'd Mr. Hubbard about this one. Does "authentic" ninjutsu even exist anymore? I seriously doubt it due to the nature of old ninjutsu and its original practitioners to begin with. Everybody has their take or angle on it, and I personally think that we are practicing modern reinterpretations of ninjutsu, not "authentic" ninjutsu. "Authentic" ninjutsu has been lost to antiquity. No living person has been verified by the japanese martial authorities to be ninja or to be connected to the actual lineage/tradition. Hatsumi's claims have even been questioned as noone has been able to verify them, so for all that we know, he could be blowing smoke up our collective wazoo. From what I have seen of the various systems, they are all nice and they look fun to practice. So do what you love and don't worry about it, I guess. Maybe we will start new traditions that are "authentic" in their own right. The past isn't the be all end all, we can start something in our own time that is just as special.

Dude,
Do you know for a fact about what you are saying?

And the idea of starting a new tradition seems a bit of a contridiction. And it sounds like the excuses some rather large loosers like the Nindo ryu try to use to justify not studying as much as they can before jumping to ninja master status.
 

Teppan

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I PM'd Mr. Hubbard about this one. Does "authentic" ninjutsu even exist anymore? I seriously doubt it due to the nature of old ninjutsu and its original practitioners to begin with. Everybody has their take or angle on it, and I personally think that we are practicing modern reinterpretations of ninjutsu, not "authentic" ninjutsu. "Authentic" ninjutsu has been lost to antiquity. No living person has been verified by the japanese martial authorities to be ninja or to be connected to the actual lineage/tradition. Hatsumi's claims have even been questioned as noone has been able to verify them, so for all that we know, he could be blowing smoke up our collective wazoo. From what I have seen of the various systems, they are all nice and they look fun to practice. So do what you love and don't worry about it, I guess. Maybe we will start new traditions that are "authentic" in their own right. The past isn't the be all end all, we can start something in our own time that is just as special.



Well the U.S. army for example in the 1500's did'nt look like the army of today. Does that means the army exists no more? That means there's no authentic army? Of course students today are not learning how to make gunpowder or poisons or grow their own food. And it goes to all arts. With the pasage of time everything changes but it doesn't mean that we need to start a new tradition. The principles always stay the same. In those days ninjutsu was a way of life and to survive; nothing special about that. I think that Hatsumi is as authentic as you can get. Also the word that was use to identify the ninja of old was shinobi. Hanzo Hatori was train in Togakure ryu ninjutsu. There is documented history dating before the 1100's about the beginings of the togakure ryu wich is one of the nine ryu's that hatsumi became a grandmaster. Actually the togakure ryu and the koga ryu were said to be very similar. I don't think that the ichimonji-no-kamae of today is a modern reinterpretation of the ichimonji-no-kamae performed by a japanese man of the 1400's. I just imagine it now; a remote controled shuriken, light sabers, predator invicibility, shuko that can throw fire balls and tabis that alow us to jump 50 feet in to the air. That would be special.:jediduel:
 
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