Hybrid Martial Arts

Kizaru

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From what I've seen here these past few months, there still seems to be some friction between the distinction of "modern" and "traditional" ninjutsu.

It would seem that "traditional" ninjutsu is what is being practiced and transmitted from Japan, whereas "modern" is not. So why is "modern" included under the "Japanese Martial Arts" section on martial talk?

From my perspective, what the Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan and Toshin-Do are practicing are at the same time "traditional" and "modern". Reviewing any number of threads will make this point evident, I believe.

Also, from my perspective, I see that "Tew ryu" etc are incorporating any number of systems into their curriculum, thus creating a "hybrid" system. From the perspective of most of the "traditionalists", the gap between "traditional" and "hybrid" is enormous.

From my perspective, I feel that it may be more appropriate and a better fit to put the current "Modern Ninjutsu" section under "Arts" or "Western Martial Arts" in a "Hybrid Martial Arts" subsection. . I see it as inappropriate, inflammatory and somewhat misleading to include groups that combine many styles into their practice under the "Japanese Martial Arts" section of Martialtalk, regardless of the name they label themselves with. 

Does anyone else share this perspective?

鬼猿
 
A

AnimEdge

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Ya know i never thought of that, but that makes me wonder if other contries, oh wait that woudl be western wouldnt it :p but know that is something to think apon could clear some confusion but might also cause some
 

gmunoz

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From what I've seen, most Bujinkan practitioners would be absolutely appauled to include To-Shin Do with traditional. It would be interesting to see what most say. I've seen a few Tew-Rew practitioners and the art is, imo, a modern ninjutsu, i.e. taijutsu, weapons training, etc. It comes from somebody that learned from somebody, that learned from somebody who learned in Japan from Hatsumi.

I'm sure the mods on this section have, or are, considering another change soon.
 
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Kizaru

Kizaru

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AnimEdge said:
if other contries, oh wait that woudl be western wouldnt it
I am guessing that you are refering to the United States of America here.

The United States are considered to be a "Western Country" , so martial arts developing in the US would easily fall under the "Western Martial Arts" category.
 
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Kizaru

Kizaru

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gmunoz said:
From what I've seen, most Bujinkan practitioners would be absolutely appauled to include To-Shin Do with traditional...
Interesting. You've admitted yourself that you've never set foot in Stephen Hayes' dojo or a "traditional" Bujinkan dojo. From my perspective, you haven't seen much.

gmunoz said:
It would be interesting to see what most say....
I'd say Toshindo would fall under the X-Kan umbrella.

gmunoz said:
I've seen a few Tew-Rew practitioners and the art is, imo, a modern ninjutsu, i.e. taijutsu, weapons training, etc. ...
Indonesian and Filipino martial arts have empty handed skills as well as weapons work, but they don't tack "ninjutsu" onto what they do. Yagyu Shinkage ryu (a Japanese martial art founded during Japan's Warring States Period) has "Silent Walking", sword training, empty hands v. sword training etc, but they don't refer to themselves as a "ninjutsu" ryu either...Hybrid systems may have aspects of ninjutsu within them, but I wouldn't go as far as tacking "ninjutsu" onto the end to sum up the whole thing.

gmunoz said:
It comes from somebody that learned from somebody, that learned from somebody who learned in Japan from Hatsumi....
When I stand that far from the fire, I tend to get cold.
 

Bujingodai

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Coming from a Hybrid system, also with a Kan past. I could care less. We're not changing any names to suit the bitching masses. But if you want to put it in the western forums, what difference does it make. It's a forum, nothing more.
 

gmunoz

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Kizaru said:
Interesting. You've admitted yourself that you've never set foot in Stephen Hayes' dojo or a "traditional" Bujinkan dojo. From my perspective, you haven't seen much.
Yeah there was a time when that was true. But things change. Thank you so much for bringing back so fine memories Kizaru. Your perspective is now out of date I'd have to say though. Thanks anyways.

At least on this forum, seems most Buj practitioners would not consider To-Shin Do a traditional style. I guess I could clarify my statement.
 

Enson

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Kizaru said:
From what I've seen here these past few months, there still seems to be some friction between the distinction of "modern" and "traditional" ninjutsu.

It would seem that "traditional" ninjutsu is what is being practiced and transmitted from Japan, whereas "modern" is not. So why is "modern" included under the "Japanese Martial Arts" section on martial talk?

From my perspective, what the Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan and Toshin-Do are practicing are at the same time "traditional" and "modern". Reviewing any number of threads will make this point evident, I believe.

Also, from my perspective, I see that "Tew ryu" etc are incorporating any number of systems into their curriculum, thus creating a "hybrid" system. From the perspective of most of the "traditionalists", the gap between "traditional" and "hybrid" is enormous.

From my perspective, I feel that it may be more appropriate and a better fit to put the current "Modern Ninjutsu" section under "Arts" or "Western Martial Arts" in a "Hybrid Martial Arts" subsection. . I see it as inappropriate, inflammatory and somewhat misleading to include groups that combine many styles into their practice under the "Japanese Martial Arts" section of Martialtalk, regardless of the name they label themselves with. 

Does anyone else share this perspective?

鬼猿
its funny how rtms is always being brought up as the comparison to traditional arts. :D at least we get some publicity!;)

here is what modern means:
mod·ern Listen: [ m
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[font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]adj.[/size]

  1. a. Of or relating to recent times or the present: modern history. b. Characteristic or expressive of recent times or the present; contemporary or up-to-date: a modern lifestyle; a modern way of thinking.
  2. a. Of or relating to a recently developed or advanced style, technique, or technology: modern art; modern medicine. b. Avant-garde; experimental.
  3. often [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]Modern[/size][/font] Linguistics Of, relating to, or being a living language or group of languages: Modern Italian; Modern Romance languages.
a modern way of thinking/style/technique... it doesn't matter where it was developed.
so if you consider what you are learning trad. and modern that is convinient! (sp?);)
the modern section was not made for x kans. i know that the grass sometimes is a bit greener, but this is the way the administration has it listed. if you have an issue with modern ninjutsu being "advanced style" sorry, thats what the dictionary says not me.
peace
[/font]
 

Cryozombie

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Enson said:

the modern section was not made for x kans.
peace
Enson,

You yourself seem to often post topics in the "Modern" section about techniques in the X-kans... Such as the thread about Crossing Legs, and Pinky Strikes. That does tend to invite practitioners of those arts into posting in that forum... perhaps if you are going to post "Crossover topics" they would be better served in the "General" forum?
 

Enson

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Technopunk said:
Enson,

You yourself seem to often post topics in the "Modern" section about techniques in the X-kans... Such as the thread about Crossing Legs, and Pinky Strikes. That does tend to invite practitioners of those arts into posting in that forum... perhaps if you are going to post "Crossover topics" they would be better served in the "General" forum?
you maybe right. my questions originally are for mod schools. i do enjoy imput from x kans to help explain why the move is done. next time i post a new thread i will evaluate if it should be posted elsewhere.
peace
 

Don Roley

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gmunoz said:
Yeah there was a time when that was true. But things change.

So you have "set foot" in a real dojo (once, twice?), but you still continue to be a student of a home video course and have never met SKH who you name as your teacher, correct?

The fact remains that you are making judgements based on very little experience. If we take the guys who have had a lot of experience in ninjutsu as it is trained in Japan and had them look at what people like Rick Tew are doing, I am sure that the more experienced the Bujinkan member, the more they will be able to spot fundemental differences in the way things are done just from videos and pictures.

Everybody who has done martial arts for a long time knows that people can't even tell the difference between karate and wu shu. Everyone uses punches and kicks, etc. But the differences are there if you know what to look for and the reasons why different arts do different things are very, very important.


Enson said:
if you have an issue with modern ninjutsu being "advanced style" sorry, thats what the dictionary says not me.

That is going to cause some flame wars.


For the purposes of martialtalk the "traditional" section is for confirmable Japanese arts. The modern section is for those that are not. There is no "advanced" connotations as set down by the administrators of the site.
 

Enson

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Don Roley said:
That is going to cause some flame wars.
not ment to cause flame wars :flame: ... just repeating what the dictionary says. hope i didn't offend anyone... and if i did... sorry:uhyeah:

i think we have modern viewpoints and techniques imo.

peace
 

gmunoz

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Well Don,

When can I have enough experience to get your approval? After all, you want so badly to be the source! Please tell me. How many times do I have to train with SKH, visit him, call him on the phone, email him, etc to be considered experienced? 1 year? 2? 5? I anxiously await your approval. Thank you so much
 

gmunoz

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Don Roley said:
So you have "set foot" in a real dojo (once, twice?), but you still continue to be a student of a home video course...
Hey with that in mind Mr. Don, didn't your teacher Hatsumi do a major part of his training by mail? That is a fact as he himself has written. He received a major part of his ninjutsu training by correspondence with Takamatsu sensei. Things that make you go "hmm." Perhaps Home study course has some merit after all?
 

Enson

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gmunoz said:
Hey with that in mind Mr. Don, didn't your teacher Hatsumi do a major part of his training by mail? That is a fact as he himself has written. He received a major part of his ninjutsu training by correspondence with Takamatsu sensei. Things that make you go "hmm." Perhaps Home study course has some merit after all?
ah man is that true? wow that does make you go hmmm. maybe thats why michael pearce has that internet video lesson every month. maybe i should get that.;) looks interesting. i even think michael pearce is a member here. all the better!:D
didn't someone say that the booj is actually 9 different schools? that would be hybred if you ask me.

peace
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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gmunoz said:
Hey with that in mind Mr. Don, didn't your teacher Hatsumi do a major part of his training by mail? That is a fact as he himself has written. He received a major part of his ninjutsu training by correspondence with Takamatsu sensei. Things that make you go "hmm." Perhaps Home study course has some merit after all?
You're not going to get anywhere by taking things out of context. The fact that he received dozens if not hundreds of letters from Takamatsu sensei over the years does not mean that he would equate that with his actual training and tutelage (the location of which he had to travel to by train for about 12 hours each week).

Videos and books are useless without real training.
 

Enson

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Nimravus said:
You're not going to get anywhere by taking things out of context. The fact that he received dozens if not hundreds of letters from Takamatsu sensei over the years does not mean that he would equate that with his actual training and tutelage (the location of which he had to travel to by train for about 12 hours each week).

Videos and books are useless without real training.
i think that is a little unfair and uncalled for to a fellow martial artist. who says that gmunoz, shogun, etc. don't get real training? an uncalled for assumption.
peace
 

gmunoz

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Nimravus said:
Videos and books are useless without real training.
So let's look at this scenario then: If I trained by correspondence (in my case video), and traveled to absolutely every training seminar I could, and had a routine training partner, then would you consider that valid training?

Because if so, as did Hatsumi, then I do the same thing! A "real dojo" according to Don? Yeah, in my garage! My "Bob", training partner, equipment, a mat... The only thing I don't have unfortunately are the little name tags with all the names of Shihans like Hombu... ah shucks!
 

Cryozombie

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gmunoz said:
So let's look at this scenario then: If I trained by correspondence (in my case video), and traveled to absolutely every training seminar I could, and had a routine training partner, then would you consider that valid training?

Because if so, as did Hatsumi, then I do the same thing! A "real dojo" according to Don? Yeah, in my garage! My "Bob", training partner, equipment, a mat... The only thing I don't have unfortunately are the little name tags with all the names of Shihans like Hombu... ah shucks!
I think that you have a False notion of HOW Sensei Hatsumi was trained. It was NOT by mail and "occassional" seminars by Takamatsu.

The consensus on Martial Talk, after reading many threads on the subject, and not just in the Ninjutsu section, seems to be that Video and Book training are excellent supplements, but not very good substitutes for "real" instruction. MOST martial artists would tell you the same, I think. It does not invalidate your Video Training, but it does lack a certain element... It is much like "1 way communication" in that it is ineffective when compared to "2 way communication" (Sorry, thats my years of stupid management training coming to the surface.)

Let me ask you this, if I took a Video Corespondance course on Surgery, would you feel I was qualified to perform a bypass on one of your loved ones, even if the AMA licenced me?
 

Cryozombie

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Nimravus said:
Videos and books are useless without real training.
I disagree. I think they are far less effective, but you CAN learn from them.
 
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