Hybrid Martial Arts

Don Roley

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Kalifallen said:
So Nagato doesn't know ninjutsu? Only Hatsumi?
That sounds weird.....

No, that is not what he is saying. He is responding to the comment by you that Bussey trained with Hatsumi. He has been in the same room with him, but the bulk of his training came from Nagato. The matter of ninjutsu is seperate.
 
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Kalifallen

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Okay, yeah, I get it. I feel like I read a dictionary or something. :D
I know you can't say you know ninjutsu if you've never actually learned it. Is that why they don't call Bujinkan ninjutsu anymore and instead call it taijutsu? Anyway.....
Yes, Bussey did teach the joint locks but you can't forget the rope climbing, weapons, water skills and all the other stuff that made his art so interesting.

So, if modern ninjitsu-ists aren't ninjutsu-ists then what are they? Or how would you describe them? For example, What would you say a Tew Ryu student is, or a Toshindo student is? Are they ninja or something else?
 

Don Roley

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Kalifallen said:
I know you can't say you know ninjutsu if you've never actually learned it. Is that why they don't call Bujinkan ninjutsu anymore and instead call it taijutsu?

Kind of. Just becasue you are in the Bujinkan does not mean that you will see ninjutsu. You can, but you may not. I have learned the Tonsoga from Hatsumi, but the bulk of the training I see is in Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc. IMO, the Koto ryu, etc is just a heck of a lot more well rounded than pure ninjutsu.

Kalifallen said:
Yes, Bussey did teach the joint locks but you can't forget the rope climbing, weapons, water skills and all the other stuff that made his art so interesting.

Of course, that is his idea of what ninjutsu should be and not what he learned in the Bujinkan- AFAIK.

Kalifallen said:
So, if modern ninjitsu-ists aren't ninjutsu-ists then what are they? Or how would you describe them? For example, What would you say a Tew Ryu student is, or a Toshindo student is? Are they ninja or something else?

That right there is the core of this debate.
:cheers:
 

Enson

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Don Roley said:
It is the same way with Bussey. As Nimravus points out, there seems to be no mention of him learning the very specialized skills of Togakure ryu ninjutsu. If he had stayed in Japan for years and gotten down the things like Shinden Fudo ryu and Gyokko ryu, then maybe he would have been introduced to actual ninjutsu..
don, what proof do you have of this? documentation would be preferred. also that gets me thinking if bussey, who is famous for teaching ninjutsu throughout the world... doesn't teach ninjutsu cause he never learned it... even though that is apparently what he went to japan to study... how do you(you meaning... bujinkan) know you are learning actual ninjutsu?.. or are you learning ninjutsu?... it just seems that you are very privledged to be one of the few that hatsumi has all of the sudden now started teaching "ninjutsu" to.:idunno: noy hayes, bussey, etc... but you and a select few others... non of his original students.
and with regards to your post... then techniquelly not all bujinkan students should be posting here. if they have never learned a ninjutsu technique then how can they say they are learning ninjutsu?
to me ninjutsu is not a couple of set kata that you have to know to claim that you study it... to me it is a group of skills one attains to become a ninjutsu practicioner. like taijutsu, stealthing, exotic weapons, etc. of course from what i have been taught your taijutsu will flow/reflect into everything else... imo

peace
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Enson said:
how do you(you meaning... bujinkan) know you are learning actual ninjutsu?.. or are you learning ninjutsu?... it just seems that you are very privledged to be one of the few that hatsumi has all of the sudden now started teaching "ninjutsu" to.:idunno: noy hayes, bussey, etc... but you and a select few others... non of his original students.
It's actually quite simple. Perfect your taijutsu to a high enough degree and you will probably be exposed to ninjutsu sooner or later.

Enson said:
and with regards to your post... then techniquelly not all bujinkan students should be posting here. if they have never learned a ninjutsu technique then how can they say they are learning ninjutsu?
They're not. At least the ones that know what they're talking about.
I for one practiced the santo tonko no gata for the first time in my life at a weekend seminar approximately four weeks ago, if anyone's interested.

Enson said:
to me ninjutsu is not a couple of set kata that you have to know to claim that you study it... to me it is a group of skills one attains to become a ninjutsu practicioner. like taijutsu, stealthing, exotic weapons, etc.
As have been said before, ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques to do, it deals mainly with strategic concepts regarding the gathering and usage of information.
 

heretic888

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also that gets me thinking if bussey, who is famous for teaching ninjutsu throughout the world... doesn't teach ninjutsu cause he never learned it... even though that is apparently what he went to japan to study... how do you(you meaning... bujinkan) know you are learning actual ninjutsu?.. or are you learning ninjutsu?... it just seems that you are very privledged to be one of the few that hatsumi has all of the sudden now started teaching "ninjutsu" to.

Enson, this has been explained in previous threads but here goes again.

At one time in the Bujinkan, everything was called "ninjutsu" --- regardless of what ryu it came from.

Then, everything was called "ninpo taijutsu" --- regardless of what ryu it came from.

Now, everything is called "budo taijutsu" --- which, as Don said, is a lot more inclusive term.

I once read someone's anecdote about the older training. When being taught a particular kata, the student asked if it came from Togakure ryu. Hatsumi-soke's reply at the time was, "It does now!"

There have been quite a few interviews with Hatsumi-soke about the subject and nature of the name changes. They can all be found online. I'll see if I can't dig one up for you later.

Regarding Mr. Bussey, he studied at a time in the Bujinkan when everything was called "ninjutsu". But, just because everything was blanketed that way at the time, doesn't necessarily mean he learned from Togakure ryu, Kumogakure ryu, or Gyokushin ryu.

In any event, its a moot point now. Bussey has not referred to what he does as "ninjutsu" in years. And, for good reason, too.

Laterz.
 

Don Roley

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Enson said:
don, what proof do you have of this? documentation would be preferred.

Perhaps the question should be what proof does Bussey have that he knows specific stuff from the Togakure ryu.

I base my statement that I doubt Bussey ever learned specific stuff from Togakure ryu ninjutsu based on his lack of reference or commenting on the subject, or in ways that reflect he knows the content of the school. I also base it on the experience I have had in the Bujinkan and the way people are typically trained in the first part of their personal instruction. Nimravus just said that he finally saw them himself a few weeks ago after years of training under an instructor. They are normally not taught to people that have yet to get down the kihon happo of the Gyokko ryu, and probably not to people that have not seen much of the Koto, Kukishinden and other schools of the Bujinkan in order to get down the basics.
 
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Kalifallen

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Hm, sounds like you have to be higher than 5th dan just to be able to learn ninjutsu. Would you say that is a good guess?
What is the main difference between ninjutsu and taijutsu? Is taijutsu just learning the physical and some mental applications? Is ninjutsu like learning everything (physical, mental and spiritual)? What pushes taijutsu over the edge into ninjutsu?
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Kalifallen said:
Hm, sounds like you have to be higher than 5th dan just to be able to learn ninjutsu. Would you say that is a good guess?
Not necessarily. You just have to have the right amount of skill and earn the confidence of the people who are knowledgeable about the subject (i.e. the Japanese shihan).

Kalifallen said:
What is the main difference between ninjutsu and taijutsu?
Ninjutsu is nothing you can practice per se, it has more to do with passing on information.

Kalifallen said:
What pushes taijutsu over the edge into ninjutsu?
What pushes the physical practice in PE classes over the edge into health and nutrition lessons?
 
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Kizaru

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Kalifallen said:
Hm, sounds like you have to be higher than 5th dan just to be able to learn ninjutsu. Would you say that is a good guess? What is the main difference between ninjutsu and taijutsu? Is taijutsu just learning the physical and some mental applications?
I'd say, "guess again".
:asian:
 

Shogun

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At one time in the Bujinkan, everything was called "ninjutsu" --- regardless of what ryu it came from.
Then, everything was called "ninpo taijutsu" --- regardless of what ryu it came from.
Now, everything is called "budo taijutsu"
Not to be a jerk or anything, (just wondering) but why is this section called Ninjutsu?
also, why is it called Budo Taijutsu? Taijutsu is only one type of japanese MA, and Bujinkan training includes all the bells and whistles (tools, weapons, Jujutsu, yoi Kumiuchi, etc)
Just wondering......because if one is so politically correct, then why not the other........
 

gmunoz

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Great idea Nimravus. THe modern should in turn be named American Ninjutsu. That would make things pretty clear.
 

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