What Is A TMA?

[Brian R. VanCise]

With all the threads about mma vs. tma, Why are tma's having difficulty in the ring, etc. I thought we could all sit down and hash out what exactly is a Traditional Martial Art?

 

[Hanzou]

As I said in another thread;

The difference is training methods. One incorporates older methods while the other incorporates more modern methods. TMAs incorporate feudal weapons, ancient forms, and antiquated techniques.

MMA can also mean Modern Martial Art.

 

[Xue Sheng]

TMA can incorporates strength training and cardio...good thing you don't find such things in "Modern" Martial Arts. TMA incorporates training of strikes, kicks, take downs, ground work and joint locks....good thing you don't find any of that in "Modern" Martial Arts....by the way "Modern Wushu" would fall uunder "Modern Martial Art"

only real difference is the objective and the goal... but then it depends on which Modern Art you are comparing. Big differences between Sports Sanda and Sanda of PRC police and military. Big differences between a Sport MA and a Krav Maga. Big difference between Modern Wushu and Traditional Wushu.


Brian I think you have a good topic here but sadly I doubt it will end well..... I'd happily discuss this all day with you in person with others there to talk but on the web....I hope I'm wrong and I hope you get a good thread here..... Old Beat Up TMA dinosaur guy is out...peace

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My definition of TMA may be different from others. A TMA should include:

- partner training to "develop" skill.
- sparring/wrestling to "test" skill.
- equipment training to "enhance" skill.
- solo training to "polish" skill.

Also when you teach a technique, you should also teach

- How to counter it.
- How to counter those counters.

You should have 3 levels of training:

1. beginner level - offense,
2. intermediate level - defense,
3. advance level - combo (use one move to set up another move).

IMO, the TMA "equipment training" can be very unique such as:

 

[K-man]

With all the threads about mma vs. tma, Why are tma's having difficulty in the ring, etc. I thought we could all sit down and hash out what exactly is a Traditional Martial Art?

As you have seen above, your mission is a little like attempting to herd a mob of cats.

Kung Fu Wang advocated a list of training methods that would apply just as well to any martial art, traditional or not. And using antiquated equipment has nothing to do with 'traditional'.

I like Xue's idea of objectives and goals but even that doesn't really differentiate between modern and traditional or even non-traditional and God help us all when Chris finds this thread.

But to look at Hanzou's post:

Quote Hanzou
"The difference is training methods"

I think this is probably closer to the truth but possibly not in the meaning he intended. There is no reason that a traditional martial art can't be trained with modern training methods. We don't need to hit rocks, trees or rope bound boards to be traditional. In traditional martial art we used pads and focus mits, we use the heavy bag. We can use all the cardio equipment in a modern gym. None of that influences whether an art is traditional or not. If you wanted to go down that track then it may be valid to say that "XYZ school trains using traditional equipment".

Quote Hanzou
"One incorporates older methods while the other incorporates more modern methods."

In reality, the method of training has nothing to do with whether an art is 'traditional'. What training methods would, say, MMA use that you couldn't use in a 'traditional' school?

Quote Hanzou
"TMAs incorporate feudal weapons, ancient forms, and antiquated techniques."

I consider Okinawan Goju to be traditional but we don't train weapons at all. Once you include weapons you are training Kobudo.

Ancient forms? Sure, some but not all traditional schools have kata or forms. How they train those kata or forms would certainly provide a massive divide between traditional and non-traditional. Then there is a massive difference in what those forms represent as I'm sure Chris will be able to provide much more eloquently than I could do. In previous posts I have often disagreed with people who dismiss forms as archaic or not relevant. To me that just illustrates that they have not experienced 'traditional' instruction even though they are training a 'traditional' style of MA.

Antiquated techniques? I invite anyone to show me an antiquated technique from my style of martial art. I presume that Hanzou is referring again to things like deep stances and reverse punches as demonstrated in solo training. Again it is demonstrating a lack of understanding of kihon form and application.

Now, how do I define traditional? :hmm:

i suppose you you could look at the way the the Okinawan Prefecture Karate Rengokai defines 'traditional karate' which is that to be traditional the system has to be basically the same as it was when it was developed by its creator. Hence the four traditional Okinawan styles, Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Uechi Ryu and Isshin Ryu. Of these, Isshin Ryu is relatively modern but is considered traditional by definition. This definition has absolutely nothing to do with training methods.

i would suggest that the term TMA is as wide as the term 'animal'. You can have lions and tigers or rats and mice. In the current context you could represent MMA as the camel, an animal often alleged to have been designed by a committee to incorporate characteristics of a number of the other animals.

But to label a box TMA is one thing. Finding a martial art to put in it is another. I suggested in another thread that Krav could be considered 'traditional' by some definition. Many people consider Shotokan karate to be traditional yet it is totally different to the Shotokan karate of Gichin Funakoshi. Others say TKD is traditional. I would suggest that if you want to compare any style to a TMA you need to define what you mean by TMA in the context of the comparison. To use TMA as a generic term is way too broad.
:asian:

 

[Badger1777]

So is it:

TMA = Traditional Martial Arts
MMA = Modern or mixed Martial Arts

?

Is that about right?

 

[Blindside]

As I said in another thread;

The difference is training methods. One incorporates older methods while the other incorporates more modern methods. TMAs incorporate feudal weapons, ancient forms, and antiquated techniques.

MMA can also mean Modern Martial Art.

Is a knife a "feudal weapon?" How about a machete? How about a screwdriver or shiv?

My kali system has no fixed forms.

Is a standing armbar an "antiquated technique?" Rear naked choke? Figure four?

I certainly consider PTK to be a TMA, but I don't think it meets your criteria.

 

[drop bear]

 

[drop bear]

That actually worked a lot better than I thought it would.

 

[Steve]

If you self identify as training in a TMA, it is any MA you think is good and the opposite of any MA you think is bad.

if you self identify as training in a non-TMA of any kind, it is any style you think is crap.

honestly, guys. i think it's that subjective. there is no rhyme or reason to it.

 

[Reedone816]

This thread makes me thinking, there's actually no distictive method to diferrentiate both.
Is it competition, equipment, training method, forms, the day it founded, philosophy or weapon?
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you kill someone with a punch like this, will the court judge care whether you train TMA or MMA?

 

[hoshin1600]

i really like drop bears picture post.

One incorporates older methods while the other incorporates more modern methods[/QUOTE
there is nothing in MMA that Alexander The Great's soldiers would not recognize as they practiced Pankration in their down time between wars. so basicly MMA is the oldest art, dating back to 300 BC. i have seen MMA guys holding ends of a heavy rope and using it was a work out...modern?,,,,they didnt have rope in the old days? i can understand the meaning behind the statement but it really doesnt reflect the difference.

 

[jezr74]

How come I've never seen the term classical used to describe older training methods?

For me, traditional had meant more about the rituals and culture of the school along side classic or modern taught methods. If that makes sense.

 

[punisher73]

The labels aren't very useful. What is now considered "traditional" at one time was considered a new art at one point.

But, for the sake of the discussion. We will consider "Mixed Martial Arts" the new sport that evolved out of the UFC in the US that used to be called "NHB" (no holds barred). After it evolved from more style vs. style of arts into mixing various elements.

In MMA, techniques are chosen based on their success in the ring/octagon. Look at the earlier days between Pride and UFC. You saw different techniques being used because of the environment and ruleset. As more and more events are sanctioned and the rules get closer and closer between organizations you will see more of the same because of this.

As to "why" the TMA's don't do well in the ring, there are too many factors to say one reason.

1) Different goals: the emphasis in traditional karate is civilian self-defense. This puts it's effective range in much closer that the sporting match distance. Most people from a TMA background don't always understand this and try to "spar" with their tools at a range they weren't meant for.

2) Different training goals: The assumption that ALL people who take martial arts only want to fight is inaccurate. Some people take MA's for a social outlet, the same way people do bowling. Others use it as a vehicle of self-expression like dance.

3) Different training methodologies: In okinawan karate, the ultimate goal of self-defense is to preserve your health into old age. There are many karate masters in their 70's and up that move great and have great health. MMA is a young man's sport. It has a very short life span for it's athletes to compete in. It will be interesting to see how these athletes transition their sport into a long term lifestyle like the TMA's. Hurting yourself is not the goal in a TMA, but talk with any athlete that does MMA and almost all of them talk about their training injuries. I have a friend who is a legit BB in BJJ, he is always talking about how his joints are all messed up from the training. Why? How does that help you into old age? You don't need an opponent, you beat yourself up. LOL

I am not against MMA, I enjoy watching it and have trained with various people who compete in it. It's just not for me. But, I think there is also a lot to be learned from MMA and incorporate into TMA's. Ways to find out how to incorporate more resistance training with your partner.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a diagram that I use with my karate students that I think applies to this discussion. As far as I understand the martial arts world, I think it can logically be broken down into three categories.

1. Martial Art - Techniques and methods that are taught for artistic reasons or historical preservation. This includes techniques that aren't very practical, but look awesome. It also includes old weapon systems that don't have too much bearing on the modern world.
2. Self Defense - Techniques and methods that are directly applicable to self defense.
3. Sport - Techniques and methods that are directly applicable to combat sports.

As people can see, there are a lot of crossover techniques and I think this is where a lot of people argue regarding the MMA and TMA debate. Another thing that become apparent after looking at this diagram is that it becomes very difficult to classify entire martial arts. Most martial arts have techniques that cross over into at least two categories. All of the martial arts I've trained in, including western wrestling, have techniques in all three.

As a general rule, "MMA" tends to be more sport oriented, while "TMA" can be all over the diagram. It's really difficult to classify TMA because the category is over broad and include anything from wrestling to tai chi. It can also be very difficult to classify "MMA" when you consider Jeet Kune Do, which mixes and matches weapon training systems, sporting methods, and SD training.

In the end, I think the MMA/TMA dichotomy is a false one. Those two labels aren't helpful in understanding the nature of martial arts techniques.

 

[donnaTKD]

to get the full effect of any MA and to get the most out of it then surely the background to it should be learnt so that a full understanding of that art is learnt as part of the package and i think that this is the difference.

in the competition side of muay thai then there is no "homework" it's just this is how you win a fight and i'm pretty sure that it's the same for the likes of sport tkd or judo or karate or any MA with a sport arm to it.

just my take on things s'all

 

[jezr74]

There should be a sticky that defines Traditional Martial Arts as a gold standard for when posting in Martial Talk, so we are all on the same page.

 

[Steve]

I gave a kind of smart alec response earlier.

If I had to genuinely define TMA, it would be about the priorities of the style. If the most important instructional priority at your school is that you do things as much like your instructor as possible, you are likely training in a TMA.

 

[Hanzou]

Would it be fair to say that traditional MA is any martial art that claims to be traditional, and tries to say that they don't fight or compete because of it?

MMA and Wrestling are sports, not martial arts.