Weapons & Self Defense

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
189
Came across this blog entry, written by Doug Wilson, from the Bujinkan. Thought it was interesting, so I wanted to post it here for discussion. Enjoy! :)

http://henka.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/the-mind-of-no-weapon/

I'm going to write a similar article are untooled carpenter......do you really need a hammer to drive nails? One should cultivate doing it by hand.

"Additionally, if you do not carry a weapon, then it cannot be taken away and then used against you."
All well and good.....but in most situations bad guys have the good sense to bring their OWN weapons. ;)
 

BLACK LION

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
551
Reaction score
30
Location
CA
I understand where he is coming from in the sense that one should not carry a "weapon" under the pretense that it will yield greater effectiveness in confrontation. I understand were he is coming from with carrying a "weapon" for "self defense".

However.... I only carry 2 weapons...a sound mind and able body. All else is percieved and relied lied upon as a tool or labor saving device.
If you are not effective empty hand you have no business with snap on tools. It creates a false sense of security and could lead to problems including legal ones.... why stab someone if you can crush thier throat with a well executed forearm... why shoot someone when you can break their leg and drop them on thier head.

I understand the approach yet I value the effective use of labor saving devices when it is warranted and needed. You just neve know, so its good to have and not need than to need and not have....
 

Guardian

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
635
Reaction score
23
Location
Wichita Falls, Texas
Well, I'm taking the extreme opposite but being nice about it, what a load of (well you know). Sure anything can happen, point is the man used his knife, it saved his life and it didn't get taken away and he didn't get charged due to whatever law covered him.

So the authors point on that situatiion is moot all the way. Sure any weapon can be taken away by the right person, just as you can have your butt handed to you by anyone given the right situation, so the question still stands, better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

The author is completely off base in my view.

That's my 50 cents worth.
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
189
I understand where he is coming from in the sense that one should not carry a "weapon" under the pretense that it will yield greater effectiveness in confrontation. I understand were he is coming from with carrying a "weapon" for "self defense".

However.... I only carry 2 weapons...a sound mind and able body. All else is percieved and relied lied upon as a tool or labor saving device.
If you are not effective empty hand you have no business with snap on tools. It creates a false sense of security and could lead to problems including legal ones.... why stab someone if you can crush thier throat with a well executed forearm... why shoot someone when you can break their leg and drop them on thier head.

I understand the approach yet I value the effective use of labor saving devices when it is warranted and needed. You just neve know, so its good to have and not need than to need and not have....

It's a good point about the need for empty hand competency......a weapon really is just a tool, a lever............but a BRUSH HOG makes clearing brush so much simpler than doing it by hand!
 

searcher

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
3,317
Reaction score
59
Location
Kansas
I think the guy is nuts, "a weapon will not ultimately protect you?" I think that if you have the proper training on its use, understand when/how to use it correctly, are ready to fight for your survival, then a weapon is a fabulous equalizer.

If the BGs have guns, then I want mine with me.
 

Deaf Smith

Master of Arts
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,722
Reaction score
85
Bufu Ikkan is very mistaken. His thoughts are those of someone scared of weapons.

When he wrote about the martial artist that carried a large knife, and had to use it and said, "this martial artist went through several court hearings and depositions and was ultimately found not guilty." Bufu acted as if he knew little of how the law works.

I hate to tell him but court hearings and dispositions are not a trial. It's ovious he was 'NO BILLED", that is the grand jury said it was self defense. So we must ask ourselves, what did the blogger want him to do when he was in a life-or-death struggle? DIE cuase he didn't have the knife and save himself from the possibility of prison? Any guarantee using this Bujinkan concept he could fine some handy object to save himself?

And then the blogger admitted he 'deliberately carried a weapon into a fight thinking that it would give me a tremendous advantage.". So this blogger actually went out seeking a fight! Now that isn't self defense and if he does that in Texas he will find out what prison really is. And it would not matter if he had a weapon or not when seeking a fight.

And then the blogger tells us he 'used an object in the immediate area that would not be deemed a weapon by most people." I hate to tell him that but a deadly weapon is not defined by what most people would not consider a deadly weapon. It's how the object was used! That's another good way to go to jail.

Then he tells us "Obviously, there are times when lethal force is justified, but will you truly know when to do so?". To that I say YES. YES you can know when lethal force is justifed. It's done all the time. It's called being in fear of your life. The NRA's 'Armed Citizen' has thousands of cases of people using lethal force justifably and did not go to jail at all.

He then tells us of this "Bujinkan concept of using an object as weapon that is not considered a weapon by definition." Again, a deadly weapon is defined as how the object is used in court. A pencil normaly is not a deadly weapon, but use it to stab someone and by law it IS A DEADLY WEAPON. Same goes for a lamp, or chair, or walking stick, etc...

Then he gives us this "Additionally, if you do not carry a weapon, then it cannot be taken away and then used against you. ". Which is TOTAL BULL STUFFINGS! I'd like the readers here to find on the internet actual cases where citizens had their guns taken away from them by a criminal during an altercation! I bet you might find one, or maybe two at the most, and that's with a liberal press that would love to print such articles. But at the same time look for defesive gun useage... oh wait here is HUNDREDS!

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

And then he tells you to keep your rifle in case there is a war...

Bufu Ikkan is mistaken. He feels somehow a object will be avaliable that you can use as a deadly weapon (but the courts won't think it was a deadly weapon) and that object will save the day (but for some reason the bad guy won't be able to take it away from you yet if you have a gun or knife the bad guy will take it!) And to add on, he says we cannot tell when we are under deadly threat!

Yes he is mistaken. Here in Texas well over a quater of a millon civilians pack guns every day, and if you add Florida, it's well over 1/2 million. Way over 1/2 million, yet the nightmares Bufu talks about happen so rare one has difficulty finding an example!

Deaf
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
189
The guy is a 15th Dan Ninja, though.......so he doesn't need a weapon.......Ninja's are sweeet!
 

K831

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
595
Reaction score
28
1.)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Stiffer legal penalties when a weapon is involved in SD
a.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Judged by 12 vs. carried by 6 its a non issue for me
2.)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The weapon can be taken away and used against you
a.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Im lost on this one; surely and assailant physically capable of overwhelming you when you have a weapon, is capable of overwhelming you when you are unarmed. That said, I would guess you are likely to lose the confrontation anyway. This is an argument Hoplophobes use when talking to my wife about her carrying a gun/knife. She is always armed and she trains with what she carried. Neither of us are under the impression that she is guaranteed to win and altercation because of these weapons. But anyone who think she is more vulnerable with them than without them is nuts.
3.)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Use something available to you that is not normally viewed as a weapon, the criminal will not recognize it immediately and therefore will not attempt to take it as readily, and the public/jury will be more tolerant.
a.)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]This leaves too much to chance. Maybe I can find a broomstick or screw driver in time, maybe not. Also, I have never seen an aggressor not recognize anything in your hand as a potential weapon. I dont think the point is valid. Especially when you consider the time between being assaulted and drawing a weapon. Its as though he infers some kind of old west showdown where I waive my gun or knife around for my adversary, rather than draw it into immediate action.
4.)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Weapons lead to a false sense of security
a.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]For some, sure. We all know the guy with the gun who fancies himself a bad a$$ but never trains. However, I would also submit that intent and aggression are major keys to surviving an attack. Many women struggle here as they are physically less able to defend themselves, thus less confident, thus more hesitant. A weapon may increase their confidence and their willingness to give it all they got. Plus, in my experience criminal typically pick the easiest target. They are lazy. A person armed is and willing may just send the criminal in search of an easier target.
Outside of Mr. Myagi type martial philosophizing, the article fails, in my opinion.
 

Brian R. VanCise

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
27,758
Reaction score
1,520
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
I enjoy reading Doug's blog and quite often he has some insight and that causes one to rethink things. This particular blog post I must admit that I just glanced quickly over it as real life has been very busy. So seeing this post I reread the article and well I can see what Doug is saying but also it is not advice I will be taking. I think it is more important to know the laws of your state/country and what you can and cannot do legally. I carry several tools and I am familiar with what I can and cannot do legally. I also vet my legal knowledge with a local attorney.
 

KenpoTex

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
3,001
Reaction score
144
Location
Springfield, Missouri
K831 nailed it...

The author of this article needs to quit talking about things that he obviously doesn't understand. Unfortunately, I'm sure there are "martial-artists" who will read this and say "hey, I agree, that makes a lot of sense."
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
23,430
Reaction score
3,736
Location
Northern VA
Doug's writing in Japan. That may effect his opinions; I don't know.

And I think he's trying to make a point I sort of agree with; too many people carry weapons but aren't really prepared to use them or get so reliant on them that they can't handle it if they have a problem. I've seen cops who get stuck; they've got their gun out, and they know they can't shoot in this circumstance -- but they can't figure out what to do with the gun.

We have a core principle that states that we should be "able to use anything for offense or defense." That doesn't mean we don't carry and use weapons -- but that the principles we learn and practice should adapt to anything in our environment.

Personally... I generally carry more than one weapon, as permitted by law.
 

KenpoTex

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
3,001
Reaction score
144
Location
Springfield, Missouri
And I think he's trying to make a point I sort of agree with; too many people carry weapons but aren't really prepared to use them or get so reliant on them that they can't handle it if they have a problem. I've seen cops who get stuck; they've got their gun out, and they know they can't shoot in this circumstance -- but they can't figure out what to do with the gun.
agreed, but as I see it, the point with that example is that they're not adequately trained, not that carrying a weapon is fundamentally a bad idea.

I would submit that the person who carries a gun or knife as a "talisman" and expects the very fact that they have it to be enough (ignoring the need for multi-disciplinary competence) is really no different than the "martial-artist" who refuses to train with or carry weapons. Both of them are ignoring critical components of the integrated SD "program."
 

BLACK LION

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
551
Reaction score
30
Location
CA
agreed, but as I see it, the point with that example is that they're not adequately trained, not that carrying a weapon is fundamentally a bad idea.

I would submit that the person who carries a gun or knife as a "talisman" and expects the very fact that they have it to be enough (ignoring the need for multi-disciplinary competence) is really no different than the "martial-artist" who refuses to train with or carry weapons. Both of them are ignoring critical components of the integrated SD "program."

Snatched the words outta my mouth....good post.


I am a tools and tactics lover... have been since I was a wee lad and I always wil be... I will always strive to have the upper hand in any way I can and never forsake myself the benefits of labor saving devices... I will also not forsake myself the mindset, training, accountability and great responsibility that comes with being and end user.

My enemies do not sit around thinking twice about what they would or wouldnt use or what they would and wouldnt do. My enemies do not grace me with debate or deliberation...they do not afford me compromise or compassion. My enemies are evil in every sense and I would be doing myself and those that died before me a great disservice by giving them an anything. I will take everything from them and I will do and use any and every thing in my power to make that happen.
 
OP
M

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
Sorry, didn't mean to neglect this thread. :) My thoughts....I agree and disagree with what Doug was saying. I have no issues with someone carrying a weapon, however, I do feel that if you're going to carry, you better know how to use it, deploy it, and not let it get taken away. As for using it...I think that you should also be sure that the situation you're faced with, warrants the use of it. In other words, if you pull a gun, just because someone called you an *******, because you cut them off in traffic, well, I think you may find yourself in some trouble.

I think that people tend to frown upon the use of a knife vs the use of a gun. Looking at the article, when Doug spoke of the carjacking, the guy used a knife, but it seems he went thru hell afterwards.

As far as using weapons in a SD situation....if the situation starts heading in the direction that I'd be justified in using one, yes, I'm going to use whatever I can get my hands on, be it a stick, a rock, an ashtray, pen, belt, whatever.
 

still learning

Senior Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,749
Reaction score
48
Hello, What is NOT known...is those who do carry a weapon and was approach...by an attacter or aggresser....how many situtions ended by the bad guy leaving? before anything happens?

Also, many times the weapon gave adanvantages to the good guy..


Weapons? ...Self-defense? ...to survive a real attack? .....weapons will always give you a little more advantages!

Remenber even Bruce Lee mention....fight him? ...he will use a weapon first....HE"S NO FOOL!

The key to winning...is to use everything around you for self-defense...OR the other person will use it first!

NO rules for surviving a real fight! .....BE smarter! ...Aloha.. "eh ..how come you carry those coconuts with you?
 

rdonovan1

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
243
Reaction score
3
The guy is a 15th Dan Ninja, though.......so he doesn't need a weapon.......Ninja's are sweeet!

I haven't read the article as of yet, but if anyone says that they are a 15th dan Ninja then I would seriously reconsider the source big time as Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi is a 15th Dan Ninja and that is the farthest that you can go in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu and as to date he has not given that rank to anyone as of yet.

I believe and trust what Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi says because he is recognized in Japan as being the 34th Grandmaster of Togakure Ryu Ninjustu and whether we like it or not he does have the power within him to either kill or seriously injure any one of us. He also has the power to heal us as well and that is something that was not uncommon in asia.

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally have a lot of respect for Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi as he really does know what he is talking about. For the most part I think that most of the people that are under him with a few exceptions are misguided in their ways of thinking and acting simply because they have not learned enough about the art from Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi.

There is a lot of truth however to the concept of using things that you can find around you as a weapon as that was the specialty of the Ninja in feudal Japan and it is also something that you will find people using out on the street.

People like Bikers and bar brawlers for example aren't really going to give a damn as to what you know. All that they really care about is as to whether they can kick your *** and they will use whatever they can find around them to make that happen.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
23,430
Reaction score
3,736
Location
Northern VA
I haven't read the article as of yet, but if anyone says that they are a 15th dan Ninja then I would seriously reconsider the source big time as Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi is a 15th Dan Ninja and that is the farthest that you can go in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu and as to date he has not given that rank to anyone as of yet.

I believe and trust what Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi says because he is recognized in Japan as being the 34th Grandmaster of Togakure Ryu Ninjustu and whether we like it or not he does have the power within him to either kill or seriously injure any one of us. He also has the power to heal us as well and that is something that was not uncommon in asia.

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally have a lot of respect for Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi as he really does know what he is talking about. For the most part I think that most of the people that are under him with a few exceptions are misguided in their ways of thinking and acting simply because they have not learned enough about the art from Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi.

There is a lot of truth however to the concept of using things that you can find around you as a weapon as that was the specialty of the Ninja in feudal Japan and it is also something that you will find people using out on the street.

People like Bikers and bar brawlers for example aren't really going to give a damn as to what you know. All that they really care about is as to whether they can kick your *** and they will use whatever they can find around them to make that happen.
You're a little misinformed on the teachings of the Bujinkan. Hatsumi isn't 15th dan. He's soke. He is above/beside/outside the ranking. And he's promoted several individuals to 15th dan; there are a few here on MT, and the author of the blog that started this thread is not only 15th dan, but trains regularly with Hatsumi AND often serves as his translator. I think he's got a handle on what Hatsumi is teaching today...

You make a good point in the last sentence, though. It's never about the style, really. It's about the individual and the unique circumstances of that fight or attack. There are too many people who are seeking a magic pill of self defense, be it a style or a weapon, rather than recognizing that there is no perfect approach.
 

rdonovan1

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
243
Reaction score
3
I'll have to go back and double check that aspect of the 15th Dan thing, but I could have sworn that Hatsumi sensei said that 15th Dan is the highest that you can go in the art and that he is supposed to be 15th Dan.

I do know however that he is looking for someone to take his place, but to the best of my knowledge he hasn't picked anyone as of yet. Stephen Hayes was rumored to have been the guy that Hatsumi sensei was going to pick until Hayes had a falling out with Hatsumi sensei. There is now talk that Richard Van Donk might be the next grandmaster of the art as well, but that is to the best of my knowledge nothing but an unconfirmed rumor at this point in time.

Who he will pick is to the best of my knowledge a complete mystery as I don't think that Hatsumi sensei has really stated as to who will take his place as the next grandmaster in the art.

I'm guessing that it will probably be some Japanese guy who is really close to Hatsumi sensei as the Japanese are not known to give the title of grandmaster of any Japanese martial art to someone who is not Japanese by birth.
 

Latest Discussions

Top