Watered Down Martial Arts

[Champ-Pain]

I just want to make a point on watered down Judo: This past weekend - at the jr US Open - a "Team Champion" member - a pure wrestler with only 4 judo practices of 1 and a half hours each - won the Gold medal, defeating a team mate, in the final... a team mate, who has been practicing Judo and competing at high level events for 3 years. What does that say to you?

It tells me that the kid is a stud - or, most likely - Judo needs to step up. Judo needs athletes from other styles - to come into a Judo tournament, without much or any experience and beat up on the real Judokas - as much as a wrestling meet needs Gi wearing Judokas - stepping in and beating up on the wrestlers... Neither one should ever happen - and yes, I know it does.

 

[Lee Mainprize]

I agree most people are training for themselves today not for combat...however I think most people would be very disappointed if their martial arts let them down in a street fight.

Unless it happens most will not question this issue.

 

[Gentle Fist]

My judo club does all of the throws, locks, holds and chokes... We also have a Gracie BB on staff who helps enhance our newaza game... But I do agree that many clubs are leaving out a lot of the moves that made judo such a force a 100 years ago! I truly believe that judo is one of the most complete martial arts when done the way it was intended.

 

[seasoned]

My judo club does all of the throws, locks, holds and chokes... We also have a Gracie BB on staff who helps enhance our newaza game... But I do agree that many clubs are leaving out a lot of the moves that made judo such a force a 100 years ago! I truly believe that judo is one of the most complete martial arts when done the way it was intended.

http://www.kanosociety.org/about.htm
A little something along the lines of what you're talking about, perhaps...........

 

[Gentle Fist]

http://www.kanosociety.org/about.htm
A little something along the lines of what you're talking about, perhaps...........

Cool never seen that page, thanks!

 

[Master Dan]

I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:

Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!

Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill others - just to make it an Olympic sport?

I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that actually works in real life?

Perhaps they should do away with the Olympic games instead. What do you think?

just to make it an Olympic sport? Not just my opinion but that of GGM's and SGM's in 2002 my GM in disscust over the loss of use of hands said they should just call it Kwon Do and while he worked tirelessly most of his life to see TKD as an Olympic sport I think he was in the end disapointed with the end result. I would have to say it was commercialization for profit to a larger degree but that was also the motivation behind the Olympic persuit and has allowed so many abuses not just TKD but through out

 

[Kinghercules]

Wow....who dug up this joint?
I aint even gotta go thru the fourm to know that most of the post on here are sayin (in a whinnying ***** voice) "Well its a different time," "Not everybody trains to fight," "Its not about self defense," "For some ppl its a hobby and you should respect that."
LOL!

 

[Tez3]

Whinnying? perhaps they are just a little hoarse?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

just to make it an Olympic sport? Not just my opinion but that of GGM's and SGM's in 2002 my GM in disscust over the loss of use of hands said they should just call it Kwon Do and while he worked tirelessly most of his life to see TKD as an Olympic sport I think he was in the end disapointed with the end result. I would have to say it was commercialization for profit to a larger degree but that was also the motivation behind the Olympic persuit and has allowed so many abuses not just TKD but through out

Odd that he would suggest kwon do due to the restrictions on hand techniques. Wouldn't he mean 'tae do', as kwon is the fist?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Wow....who dug up this joint?
I aint even gotta go thru the fourm to know that most of the post on here are sayin (in a whinnying ***** voice) "Well its a different time," "Not everybody trains to fight," "Its not about self defense," "For some ppl its a hobby and you should respect that."
LOL!

Actually, I don't see any whining. I do see a lot of uninformed statements and generalizations made about arts that the posters in question do not practice and I see a lot of attempts to inject correct information into the topic. You may consider that whining, but many of your posts are uninformed and often borderline trolling.

Your words in quotes above are a good example of this: they add nothing of value to the topic and only serve to inflame.

 

[Master Dan]

Odd that he would suggest kwon do due to the restrictions on hand techniques. Wouldn't he mean 'tae do', as kwon is the fist?

SGM had his reasons for stating it that way but his intentions were specific not restrictions but the total lack of effective use of hands as an intergral part of sparring and being realted to and a student of Mas Oyama who he seemed to revere as to his power of hand use including SGM was one of the most powerful in use of hands I have personally trained with. It was also the lack of judges giving credit for use of hands but in fact if people had been train hands properly when a person is nocked down scoring credit becomes a much easier issue.

 

[ETinCYQX]

The bottom line is you can be as much of a hardass as you want and brag about all the street fights you've been in as much as you want, there's no martial art in beating up thugs. Period.

 

[Gentle Fist]

The bottom line is you can be as much of a hardass as you want and brag about all the street fights you've been in as much as you want, there's no martial art in beating up thugs. Period.

Um...

REX-WON-DO... You think someone wants to get kicked in the side of the head by these bad boys??? Forgetta about it!!!

 

[Josh Oakley]

Rex-kwon-do has nothing on Ameri-Do-Te.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Chris Parker]

SGM had his reasons for stating it that way but his intentions were specific not restrictions but the total lack of effective use of hands as an intergral part of sparring and being realted to and a student of Mas Oyama who he seemed to revere as to his power of hand use including SGM was one of the most powerful in use of hands I have personally trained with. It was also the lack of judges giving credit for use of hands but in fact if people had been train hands properly when a person is nocked down scoring credit becomes a much easier issue.

Huh? If he was lamenting the lack of hand-work in TKD, the lack of focus on hands in scoring bouts in TKD etc, why would he want it called "Kwon Do"? That would mean "Way of the Fist", meaning nothing but hands.... that's what Daniel was saying, Dan. You're not making much sense....

 

[softstylist]

Just as an observation judo itself is a style synthesised from jujutsu and in that origininal form was watered down so that it could be practisd as a form of self development by the general public at large. Its inclusion into the olympics has seen a dilution even further over the years to what you see practised today with many people unable to demonstrate the kata of the original form. In this timeline It has gone from its parent art which was a form of combat to another form where it is used to improve the physical well being of the practioner (but still with self defence contained within its many forms eg: Kata) to the judo practised in the olympics where training is done for winning tournaments and not much else.

(When i mention self defence here I mean as deliberate intent of the training involved on a day to day basis)

 

[Chris Parker]

Just as an observation judo itself is a style synthesised from jujutsu and in that origininal form was watered down so that it could be practisd as a form of self development by the general public at large.

Just a counter observation, then.

To begin with, I don't know that I'd say that Judo is a "style synthesized from Jujutsu", as it wasn't. It was a new system developed to express the ideals of Kano Jigoro, with the methods coming from a couple of Jujutsu systems, most notably Kito Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, rather than just "from Jujutsu". In a very real way, Judo is Jujutsu, just another form of it.

I also wouldn't necessarily say that it's "watered down"... but we'll cover that.

Its inclusion into the olympics has seen a dilution even further over the years to what you see practised today with many people unable to demonstrate the kata of the original form.

Firstly, the kata should be learnt by all the students of Judo, especially as they raise in rank (although it's typically only the more senior that pay it much attention, especially when dealing with things like the Koshiki no Kata), so they should all be able to do some of the kata. The Nage no Kata should be standard, for Olympic competitors or not. That said, I'm not sure what you're referring to as "the kata of the original form"... the Koshiki no Kata is pretty much a direct transplant from Kito Ryu, the Kime no Kata is still taught, as is the Nage no Kata... which don't you think was there in "the original form"?

Here is the Kito Ryu performing Koshiki no Kata:

Followed by modern Judoka performing the Koshiki no Kata:

And, for comparison, if we're talking "the original form", here's Kano Sensei demonstrating it....:

In this timeline It has gone from its parent art which was a form of combat to another form where it is used to improve the physical well being of the practioner (but still with self defence contained within its many forms eg: Kata) to the judo practised in the olympics where training is done for winning tournaments and not much else.

Well, was Kito Ryu still a "form of combat", looking at the clips above? Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu was also said to be less combative than it used to be by Kano's time (but, as with everything there, you need to know which line of the Ryu you were talking about...), to the degree that Kano was wanting to develop Judo to aid in physical fitness. He'd hardly have wanted to do that if such things were there for him in his previous arts...

Then again, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu can be a lot of fun, and done pretty hard!

But when it all comes down to it, has Judo really been "watered down"? Honestly, I'd say no. What it has done is moved into it's own niche, finding and focusing on it's own specialities, which is focused on randori and shiai, as well as competitive usage. I personally don't think that that's "watering down", I think it's specializing. In order to get very good at one thing, other things need to go by the wayside, and when it comes to working within the changing ruleset of Judo competition as it's developed, that has lead to a higher degree of specialization, really.

(When i mention self defence here I mean as deliberate intent of the training involved on a day to day basis)

Hmm, I'm not sure I get what you meant there... can you expand on that?

 

[frank raud]

Just as an observation judo itself is a style synthesised from jujutsu and in that origininal form was watered down so that it could be practisd as a form of self development by the general public at large. Its inclusion into the olympics has seen a dilution even further over the years to what you see practised today with many people unable to demonstrate the kata of the original form. In this timeline It has gone from its parent art which was a form of combat to another form where it is used to improve the physical well being of the practioner (but still with self defence contained within its many forms eg: Kata) to the judo practised in the olympics where training is done for winning tournaments and not much else.

(When i mention self defence here I mean as deliberate intent of the training involved on a day to day basis)

Whether judo is a watered down version of jiu jutsu might be up for debate, what Kano did do was formulate a system where techniques could be practiced and full speed and strength with less concern for being crippled by training.Many people would consider that an improvement. The self defense aspects of judo have always been practiced in kata. If people today do not know the katas of judo, it is an issue with their NGB, as the kata still exists and are requirements for advancements in many countries. I needed to know the first part of the nage-no-kata for my green belt, as an example.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Whether judo is a watered down version of jiu jutsu might be up for debate, what Kano did do was formulate a system where techniques could be practiced and full speed and strength with less concern for being crippled by training.Many people would consider that an improvement. The self defense aspects of judo have always been practiced in kata. If people today do not know the katas of judo, it is an issue with their NGB, as the kata still exists and are requirements for advancements in many countries. I needed to know the first part of the nage-no-kata for my green belt, as an example.

Wow, you don't need that form until testing for Nidan in USJA! Some require the first half for Shodan grade...

 

[Balrog]

2 Points I'd like to make in reponse to some possible misunderstanding.

1) I don't and never had the intent of disrespecting any athlete of any sport - only the sport itself is the object of my criticism and only because of the watering down effect. I completely understand how hard they train and how much discipline and sacrafice they put forward, in order to make it to the upper level, the "Olympics". I've never questioned that fact.

2) In my area, I see alot of ATA (American TKD Association) and Total M/A (Bally Fitness Centers) - I'm sorry, but it's a freakin' joke! My dojo is located side by side to a Bally, and I see these 7, 8, 9 y/o, walking around with brown and black belts. I just nod my head and chuckle. They can't even walk without tripping over themselves - and they're wearing such high ranks - give me a break! - Great marketing though, lots of students - many more than in my sport (Judo). How do they do it?

Really? I don't suppose that it ever occurred to you that they earned their ranks, did it?

Yeah, we've got schools in the ATA that are belt factories. We are no different from any other style/organization in that aspect; bad business practices override quality teaching. But there are a whole lot more instructors concerned with quality teaching than there are bad apples in the barrel. Unfortunately, it only takes one person who knows nothing about the training curriculum or standards of another style, and who operates with an attitude that "my way is superior", to badmouth an entire organization.

No style is perfect. No style is better than another. It's not the martial art, it's the martial artist that makes the difference.