Watered Down Martial Arts

[Champ-Pain]

when you train, you must have the intent of doing whatever it takes to make it out alive and safe...

... and not be thinking about the best way to make your next point.

Make it out alive and safe? From training??? :hmm:

Thinking about the best way to make your next point? Apparently, you didn't take any time to think, before making your last one... It makes NO sense - Sensei Payne - Absolutely NO disrespect intended. :angel:

 

[Sensei Payne]

Make it out alive and safe? From training??? :hmm:

Make your next point? Apparently, you didn't take any time to think, before making your last one... It makes NO sense - Sensei Payne - Absolutely NO disrespect intended. :angel:

See I don't train for sport...I train for Life Protection..and when I train, I am not thinking about how I can make points while sparring, and what not...I am thinking about how to keep myself safe, and effectively disable the aggressor.

The "Point" from the last post was that when your training, its the intent that counts. Are you intending to disable the aggressor as quickly as possible for life protection, or are you training to make the most points on the opponet in the ring.

Intent is what matters.

 

[Champ-Pain]

See I don't train for sport...I train for Life Protection..and when I train, I am not thinking about how I can make points while sparring, and what not...I am thinking about how to keep myself safe, and effectively disable the aggressor.

The "Point" from the last post was that when your training, its the intent that counts. Are you intending to disable the aggressor as quickly as possible for life protection, or are you training to make the most points on the opponet in the ring.

Intent is what matters.

I'm sorry! I was thinking point - as in making a point. You were saying point - the kind you score.

No wonder it made no sense to me.

 

[tinker1]

Exactomundo!!! - On the other hand - anything that is learned, has to be better than no knowledge at all.

WOW! Did I just say that? The TKD guys must be getting to me.

Less valid does not equate to invalid.

 

[frank raud]

See I don't train for sport...I train for Life Protection..and when I train, I am not thinking about how I can make points while sparring, and what not...I am thinking about how to keep myself safe, and effectively disable the aggressor.

The "Point" from the last post was that when your training, its the intent that counts. Are you intending to disable the aggressor as quickly as possible for life protection, or are you training to make the most points on the opponet in the ring.

Intent is what matters.

This concept works better when discussing the short comings of point sparring, however in judo the scoring system is a little different. Ippon is a perfect score, a throw which would disable or possibly kill if not done on the mats. A makikomi throw on concrete would be an absolute fight stopper, yet is perfectly legal in competition. Likewise Morote gari(in wrestling terminology a double leg pickup). Judo scoring does not equate to karate point sparring.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

True, and you're right....that can be looked at, a few different ways. But, on the other hand, should the instructor of the school, be calling what he does, self defense? Instead of calling his school Joes school of Sd, Joes school of Kenpo, TKD, etc., should it be, Joes school of cardio fitness?

Now I'm curious as to how many MA schools actually claim to be teaching self defense.

Again, you're right, this can be looked at many ways, but if someone walks in, looking for one thing, it isnt right to give them something else. OTOH, nothing says that person couldnt walk out as soon as he sees what the school is like.

Indeed. People need to do actual research on the product that they are intending to purchase. The family & fitness crowd don't need to do as much because the majority of schools cater to them on some level.

But if you want to be in a school that will take you to the next level as a tournament fighter or that will teach you to handle yourself in a mugging, you will need to do some research.

But, this IMO, kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier....if you have 90% of the pop. looking for A and 10% looking for B, when it comes down to the $$$, its possible the school owner may cave to the more watered down version to suit the majority.

Most schools depend on income to stay open. That is why most schools that I visit seem to have a lot of the same trappings: fitness programs, black belt clubs, after school programs, summer camps, over ten belts, etc. Not saying that these things are bad, but if they aren't what you're looking for, then you need to put the time and energy into finding what are looking for.

Daniel

 

[Champ-Pain]

Less valid does not equate to invalid.

No it doesn't. Less valid equates to "WATERED DOWN". - Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Sensei Payne]

This concept works better when discussing the short comings of point sparring, however in judo the scoring system is a little different. Ippon is a perfect score, a throw which would disable or possibly kill if not done on the mats. A makikomi throw on concrete would be an absolute fight stopper, yet is perfectly legal in competition. Likewise Morote gari(in wrestling terminology a double leg pickup). Judo scoring does not equate to karate point sparring.

The question now is..when in Judo Compititions...are you throwing punches and kicks too? If not, its not a great way to gage actual SD capabilities.

 

[chinto]

Ok I train in two types of Okinawan karate. they both train for SD, but also will teach you the sport/sparing version to.

I think some arts, like Okinawan Karate, and Samurai jujitsu and silat and others are more optimized to teach you to survive. That said, I understand in Kodokan judo they add the chokes and strikes and other techniques back that were taken out for sport starting at shodan level. ( there are judoka here who can tell you and me both if this information is mistaken. )
As to TKD, well I have seen a lot of different things called that. some are what they teach the ROK Rangers and ROK Marines. ( folks they do not train for sport in those formations! only for survival.) Like wise, the US army and Marines were told to tone down their hand to hand combat. this has resulted as I understand it to them having added a lot of sport versions of judo and bjj techniques to their curricula to be politically correct. That is not to say that some of them are not trained in other arts to. Most of the Special Operations people train in one art or other on their own as well.

I think as long as the tools and mindset have been taught that will let you lose the scruples and know the vital targets most will be able to survive most things... and if not take a few with them...

Some times that is all you can do, take as many with you as you can so the rest think twice next time.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I think some arts, like Okinawan Karate, and Samurai jujitsu and silat and others are more optimized to teach you to survive. That said, I understand in Kodokan judo they add the chokes and strikes and other techniques back that were taken out for sport starting at shodan level. ( there are judoka here who can tell you and me both if this information is mistaken. )


As to TKD, well I have seen a lot of different things called that. some are what they teach the ROK Rangers and ROK Marines. ( folks they do not train for sport in those formations! only for survival.) Like wise, the US army and Marines were told to tone down their hand to hand combat. this has resulted as I understand it to them having added a lot of sport versions of judo and bjj techniques to their curricula to be politically correct. That is not to say that some of them are not trained in other arts to. Most of the Special Operations people train in one art or other on their own as well.

I think as long as the tools and mindset have been taught that will let you lose the scruples and know the vital targets most will be able to survive most things... and if not take a few with them...

Some times that is all you can do, take as many with you as you can so the rest think twice next time.

Some Judoka's will train til eternity and never throw a punch or kick during his entire career, while some chokes, locks, bars, throws, etc - are never taught at all - therefore never learned, practiced or excecuted.

As for TKD - I've been told here, that there are several styles of TKD - Hard-Core, Traditional, Sport, Olympic - some are quite effective - some are less so. I believe the organization to which a school belongs to, may be the difference between learning a M/A style - and NOT learning much, in the ways of M/A, at all.

 

[Thesemindz]

Regardless of the arena I think most sports fighters would beat most self defense fighters. Because they train for harder contact, have a generally higher level of overall fitness, and regularly use their techniques against fully resisting opponents. In the street or the ring, I think as a whole, sport fighters are better prepared for combat.

That being said, a self defense fighter can train with hard contact, improve their fitness, and spar against fully resisting opponents. If they do, they will have the edge because they have a wider variety of more devastating techniques. Yes, a sports fighter can strike to vulnerable targets, practice impact grappling, and use weapons. But if they don't train to, regularly, they won't have the same level of technical proficiency as someone who does.

One isn't better than the other. They are different methodologies. And there are MMA fighters and Boxers and Olympic style TKD fighters that can definitely kick my tail. But their training doesn't generally take into account many of the things that we regularly discuss or practice, including the legal ramifications of self defense and using weapons, training against multiple opponents, irregular combat environments based on lighting, terrain, and obstructions, and the incorporation of environmental weapons into your techniques. I don't know what considerations sports fighters train for that I don't, because I don't train for sports competition.

This argument is so tired. Somebody posted a video of an eight year old girl doing an XMA style sword dance at a karate tournament. That isn't the kind of karate I do either, but it doesn't make it invalid. There are a lot of different ways to train, and they are specifically meant for different environments.

The sports fighter may be effective in the street, but he doesn't train for it.

The street fighter may be effective in the ring, but he doesn't train for it.

Why is that so offensive to people on both sides of that coin? It doesn't make any of us, in either camp, more or less capable with what we do. It means we do it for different reasons, with different methods, and different desired goals.

Can an MMA fighter win a street fight? Sure. Can a street fighter win an MMA competition? Sure. Because in the end it has a lot more to do with the individual fighter and the competition he's facing then the style he practices. How you train matters. Why you train matters. Maybe some grapplers don't strike. Maybe some strikers don't grapple. But that doesn't make one better than the other. Go tell Iron Mike that his techniques are crap because he doesn't train for self defense. Personally, even today, I'm not interested in making that mistake. By the same token, there are plenty of killers working for governments all over the world who are plenty dangerous without ever having stepped into the square circle.

If you like what you do, keep doing it. But you're never going to get very far telling other people that what they do is garbage. You're just wasting valuable training time.


-Rob

 

[frank raud]

The question now is..when in Judo Compititions...are you throwing punches and kicks too? If not, its not a great way to gage actual SD capabilities.

Because in point sparring they are doing throws? The ruleset of judo doesn't allow punches, if that is what you want, try sport jiu jitsu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5vlLlIinus&feature=related

 

[Sensei Payne]

Because in point sparring they are doing throws? The ruleset of judo doesn't allow punches, if that is what you want, try sport jiu jitsu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5vlLlIinus&feature=related

My point is, that going off any sort of point based system is not a good way to learn good SD

 

[MJS]

Now I'm curious as to how many MA schools actually claim to be teaching self defense.

Fortunately, there are quite a few that actually teach quality SD. As I've said, what I consider the side benefits, ie: weight loss, meeting new people, etc, are a given. But, whats sad, is when its more of a fitness club yet its billed as teaching SD. IMO, SD is not just the verbal defusion, but the techs as well.

Indeed. People need to do actual research on the product that they are intending to purchase. The family & fitness crowd don't need to do as much because the majority of schools cater to them on some level.

But if you want to be in a school that will take you to the next level as a tournament fighter or that will teach you to handle yourself in a mugging, you will need to do some research.

Agreed, research is key, IMHO. And again, you're also correct with what you said about the fitness crowd.

Most schools depend on income to stay open. That is why most schools that I visit seem to have a lot of the same trappings: fitness programs, black belt clubs, after school programs, summer camps, over ten belts, etc. Not saying that these things are bad, but if they aren't what you're looking for, then you need to put the time and energy into finding what are looking for.

Daniel

True.

 

[frank raud]

My point is, that going off any sort of point based system is not a good way to learn good SD

Most martial arts are not really that great a way to learn Sd. The pre-fight conflict, the interview section, pre-assault cues, spatial awareness and other areas are left out completely or just given lip services in most schools. Teaching someone how to defend themselves once a fight has already physically started is kind of ironic.

 

[tinker1]

Most martial arts are not really that great a way to learn Sd. The pre-fight conflict, the interview section, pre-assault cues, spatial awareness and other areas are left out completely or just given lip services in most schools. Teaching someone how to defend themselves once a fight has already physically started is kind of ironic.

Oh I agree completely. The best way I've found to train for REAL self defense is to hit the bars.. seek out a large group of 1% Bikers, then start running your mouth.

Great training experience.

But don't send me your hospital bills.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Most martial arts are not really that great a way to learn Sd. The pre-fight conflict, the interview section, pre-assault cues, spatial awareness and other areas are left out completely or just given lip services in most schools. Teaching someone how to defend themselves once a fight has already physically started is kind of ironic.

A lot of schools have classes on how to handle bullies,and being self aware and aware of your surroundings.

Life protection is the core of Ryukyu Kempo. Not Points.

 

[frank raud]

A lot of schools have classes on how to handle bullies,and being self aware and aware of your surroundings.

Life protection is the core of Ryukyu Kempo. Not Points.

Well there's no doubt your art is awesome. I only hope that I can have an opportunity to train in such a system. Unfortunately it is not available in my area, so I must make do with what I can. And having been involved in martial arts longer than you have been living, I also have a fair idea of what is out there and being offered. Quite simply, most of it falls dramatically short of GOOD SD. I say this having been exposed to teachers of multiple styles from across North America and such countries as England, France, Germany, Norway, Russia and many more.

 

[frank raud]

Sensei Payne, does your club allow visitors or drop-ins? I will be in Louisville in early july, if my schedule permits, I would like to visit, if that is possible.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I'm not trying to put down any particular style - Judo, for example, although it has been watered down - by the banning and elimination of some techniques that are no longer legal in competition, no longer taught or practiced at the dojo, and no longer attempted or excecuted in real life... it's still considered effective in a "self defense" situation - "fight", by most standards. IMHO, TKD does NOT have that reputation, with those who train in other styles... and only TKD practitioners have and/or will argue that assumption.