Watered Down Martial Arts

[Tez3]

If you're asking me three arts I just said are watered down in most gyms so MMA you can't kick people a lot of times when they're down and ufc anyways no 12 to 6 elbows no headbuts no fish hooks no you know there's a lot of rules and any kind of sport that comes from martial arts is like this now weather that's how you train well? But most bjj places train starting on there knees now,the first UFC's those were the best to watch it was style verse style and barely any rules at all watch some of them old ufcs those are fun to watch but basically every sport has to have rules for the safety of the combatants and a lot of schools that's their same philosophy to keep students they have to have safe training

When you say MMA rules you mean UFC rules, promoters can, in the UK and most of Europe use the rules they want. Fighters agree and fight, or disagree and don't,. Some promotions use the UFC, saved them thinking up their own but it's up to them.
BJJ, we start standing.

 

[harlan]

Active ignoring isn't ignoring. It is making a statement.

But a quiet statement...and one has to have the ears to hear. LOL

 

[GojuTommy]

I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:

Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!

Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill others - just to make it an Olympic sport?

I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that actually works in real life?

Perhaps they should do away with the Olympic games instead. What do you think?

The Greeks were mighty warriors, and the Greeks created the Olympics.
The original sports of the Olympics were all a martial art of some sort. Competition leads to growth.

The Olympics has nothing to do with martial arts being watered down. That’s a result of society.

The modern Olympics does not create rules for Olympic sports, they utilize rules from established international competition formats.

Are there issues with ‘watering down’? Sure, does sport with rules hurt martial arts? No.
The rules you see in MMA, MT, KB, etc will largely be along the lines of how ‘real’ martial arts train any way, because no one is actually intentionally jamming fingers into other peoples’ eyes during training. Same for biting, and groin shots.

 

[GojuTommy]

If you're asking me three arts I just said are watered down in most gyms so MMA you can't kick people a lot of times when they're down and ufc anyways no 12 to 6 elbows no headbuts no fish hooks no you know there's a lot of rules and any kind of sport that comes from martial arts is like this now weather that's how you train well? But most bjj places train starting on there knees now,the first UFC's those were the best to watch it was style verse style and barely any rules at all watch some of them old ufcs those are fun to watch but basically every sport has to have rules for the safety of the combatants and a lot of schools that's their same philosophy to keep students they have to have safe training

When was the last time someone did a fish hook in training? What makes you think a doing a fish hook would make any real difference in a ‘real’ fight?

Someone who trains for full contact sport will be better suited to defending themselves than someone who trains for ‘self defense’ with a bunch of techniques they’ve never actually done to another person or experienced themselves.

Bas Rutten summed it up pretty well in an interview. He was relaying a story about how someone at a seminar he was doing said that if they put him in an armbar they’d just bite his calf to get out. Bas responded, then I’ll break your arm.
Who do you think wins that trade off.
Later in the story the same person said if he was in a rear naked choke he’d gouge Bas’ eyes. Bas said he’s close his eyes and crank the choke harder. (He’s presumably also be pulling his head back and lifting his chin to pull the eyes away from where they can be easily scratched at.)
Again who do you think would win that trade?

 

[Denoaikido]

I meant most schools practice starting in combat position not all do this but most do

 

[Oily Dragon]

When was the last time someone did a fish hook in training? What makes you think a doing a fish hook would make any real difference in a ‘real’ fight?

Er...fish hooking is very effective in fighting, and is great for permanently destroying the jaw/face/skull.

Hence why its illegal in every contact sport.

Sometimes the hook doesn't even have to hit the mouth. There are other holes to consider.

 

[GojuTommy]

Er...fish hooking is very effective in fighting, and is great for permanently destroying the jaw/face/skull.

Hence why its illegal in every contact sport.

Sometimes the hook doesn't even have to hit the mouth. There are other holes to consider.

Most banned techniques aren’t banned because they’re devastating, and will end a fight.
They’re often banned because they don’t end fights, but have a high likelihood of degrading someone’s quality of life over many exposures.

Fish hooking doesn’t destroy the jaw. Holy hell where’d you hear that?

I’d love to see your source supporting the idea that it’s very effective

A fighter using a fish hook, and losing…so devastating.

Poirier claims Chandler 'fish-hooked' him at UFC 281 in illegal move

Dustin Poirier confronted Michael Chandler about illegally 'fish-hooking' him after their UFC 281 clash. 'Diamond' won a hugely entertaining bout but appeared irate in the aftermath.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oh another example of a fish hook being useless

5 times UFC fighters used questionable techniques to their advantage in the octagon

Although they’re sometimes seen as unavoidable, punches to the back of the head are an outlawed technique in the UFC due to the excess damage they can do to a fighter taking them.

www.sportskeeda.com

As far as I’m aware when currently banned techniques were used in the early UFCs they made no apparent difference in the outcome of the fight.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Most banned techniques aren’t banned because they’re devastating, and will end a fight.
They’re often banned because they don’t end fights, but have a high likelihood of degrading someone’s quality of life over many exposures.

Fish hooking doesn’t destroy the jaw. Holy hell where’d you hear that?

I’d love to see your source supporting the idea that it’s very effective

A fighter using a fish hook, and losing…so devastating.

Poirier claims Chandler 'fish-hooked' him at UFC 281 in illegal move

Dustin Poirier confronted Michael Chandler about illegally 'fish-hooking' him after their UFC 281 clash. 'Diamond' won a hugely entertaining bout but appeared irate in the aftermath.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oh another example of a fish hook being useless

5 times UFC fighters used questionable techniques to their advantage in the octagon

Although they’re sometimes seen as unavoidable, punches to the back of the head are an outlawed technique in the UFC due to the excess damage they can do to a fighter taking them.

www.sportskeeda.com

As far as I’m aware when currently banned techniques were used in the early UFCs they made no apparent difference in the outcome of the fight.

Techniques are banned because they often cause serious injury. Which is not that goal of MMA competition. Full stop.

What's so hard to understand? You don't think you can easily separate someone's jaw by hooking fingers in their mouth and separating their mandible? That's all soft tissue. Hard to fight when there are fingers shoved down your throat, dude.

Ever had an oil check? My guess is no. That's a type of fish hook, highly effective in wrestling, totes illegal, and used all the time to gain unfair advantages.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Super effective. Super illegal.

Fish hooks.

Refs miss them all the time, too, as seen here.

The Fish Hook

No description provided

www.flowrestling.org

 

[drop bear]

Er...fish hooking is very effective in fighting, and is great for permanently destroying the jaw/face/skull.

Hence why its illegal in every contact sport.

Sometimes the hook doesn't even have to hit the mouth. There are other holes to consider.

Depending how you do it.

I have seen it done effectively as a defence to a bite. And the guy pinched the dudes cheek thumb and forefinger. And that was how they did it in whatever crap hole he grew up in. It was like a northern island or somewhere.

Vaguely scraping at someone's face? Not so much.

 

[GojuTommy]

Techniques are banned because they often cause serious injury. Which is not that goal of MMA competition. Full stop.

What's so hard to understand? You don't think you can easily separate someone's jaw by hooking fingers in their mouth and separating their mandible? That's all soft tissue. Hard to fight when there are fingers shoved down your throat, dude.

Ever had an oil check? My guess is no. That's a type of fish hook, highly effective in wrestling, totes illegal, and used all the time to gain unfair advantages.

Fish hooks lead to accidental bitings they don’t stop or end fights.

If you’re talking about ‘the real world’ it doesn’t matter if you blind some for life, or tear a nostril or cheek, if the bad guy has choked you to death.

But if you want to rely on techniques that have no evidence of being effective to protect yourself go for it.

 

[GojuTommy]

Super effective. Super illegal.

Fish hooks.

Refs miss them all the time, too, as seen here.

The Fish Hook

No description provided

www.flowrestling.org

Surprising someone for a second doesn’t mean it’s good in a fight.

The overwhelming majority of these banned techniques are easily counterable.

 

[GojuTommy]

I do drills with my students where they have no rules, they just have to get away from me. Guess how many fish hooks and eye gouges and what not successfully got a student away from me. You know what has worked? Sport legal techniques, like punching in the nose.

 

[Denoaikido]

At the end of the day every martial art has a flaw even MMA ,so do what makes you happy and what you like to do and what's fun for you. Because everybody can find a whole or a flaw in any martial art I do agree that MMA is probably the most complete art ,but that doesn't mean there isn't flaws in that when it comes to street fighting that's just my opinion is a self-defense system better I'm not sure that's correct but these are just my opinions have a great holidays

 

[punisher73]

When was the last time someone did a fish hook in training? What makes you think a doing a fish hook would make any real difference in a ‘real’ fight?

Been a few years. Two inmates were fighting and one of them fish hooked the other one and tore through the inside of the cheek/mouth and required a trip to the hospital and a bunch of stitches. Oh...it also ended the fight when the guy started choking no his blood as he was gasping for breath.

 

[GojuTommy]

At the end of the day every martial art has a flaw even MMA ,so do what makes you happy and what you like to do and what's fun for you. Because everybody can find a whole or a flaw in any martial art I do agree that MMA is probably the most complete art ,but that doesn't mean there isn't flaws in that when it comes to street fighting that's just my opinion is a self-defense system better I'm not sure that's correct but these are just my opinions have a great holidays

MMA isn’t a martial art. It’s an umbrella for rulesets.

 

[GojuTommy]

Super effective. Super illegal.

Fish hooks.

Refs miss them all the time, too, as seen here.

The Fish Hook

No description provided

www.flowrestling.org

Is this the sort of fish hook that you’re talking about dislocating the jaw? Because this isn’t a fish hook, nor would it be a legal self defense technique.

 

[GojuTommy]

Been a few years. Two inmates were fighting and one of them fish hooked the other one and tore through the inside of the cheek/mouth and required a trip to the hospital and a bunch of stitches. Oh...it also ended the fight when the guy started choking no his blood as he was gasping for breath.

Did that end the fight or did the guards end the fight by separating the fighters?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I do drills with my students where they have no rules, they just have to get away from me. Guess how many fish hooks and eye gouges and what not successfully got a student away from me. You know what has worked? Sport legal techniques, like punching in the nose.

So your students fish hooked and eye gouged you and it didn’t work, but when they punched you in the nose you let go? Hmm. Elbows and knees to back of head/neck? Medial to lateral knee kicks? Soccer kick to prone opponent? Certain foot/leg lock combos? Small joint manipulations? There are some few things that aren’t in rulesets for good reason. These I listed because I think they are far more useful than biting, poking, fish hooking etc. Are your students doing these to each other or you? They can work quite well if there are no rulesets and no concerns for the future health of the participants.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Is this the sort of fish hook that you’re talking about dislocating the jaw? Because this isn’t a fish hook, nor would it be a legal self defense technique.

Clearly, you have not been properly fish hooked by a person with grip strength. I wouldn’t call it fight ending, but when applied correctly it certainly is an uncomfortable experience. Your soup doesn’t stay in your mouth for a couple days after. I learned it from my dad, it worked pretty well in 4th grade.