Watered Down Martial Arts

[Champ-Pain]

I say you can fight in the rules when you want and without rules when you need to.

:rules: I agree... Rules were made to be broken, anyways. I should know - I break'em all the time (just kidding).

 

[tinker1]

.... I assure you - that a Champion Judo player, BJJ practitioner, Wrestler, etc. will have very little trouble defending him/her self, if any at all... provided NO weapons are used against them.

Respectively - REALLY not wanting to trash anyone's art here - I would like to ask a question: How do you feel Judo or BJJ would do against multiple attackers?

Personally, I'm a striker my nature. I've studied Judo (in college), done quite a bit with Hapkido, and even trained for a short time with the famous GM Wally Jay. Still though, the rolling around on the floor grappling stuff never appealed to me. It's not what I'm about. No offense meant to anyone - grappling is just not my thing.

I'm a Biker - not a 1%er, but I hang out with those guys here and there. I spend quite a lot of time in "Biker bars", and have therefore witnessed quite a few bar fights. I would say that at least 90% of the time several people are involved.

A few months ago I was talking to the bouncer at the local watering hole - he's a BJJ guy (I think 2nd Dan). He was telling me of an altercation he got into outside the bar, where one irate customer rushed him - he went to throw this guy but the guy grabbed him and they ended up going down in a heap together. He said that then the customer's friends rushed in and began kicking him while he was down. Fortunately for him several of the other bouncers ran in and broke things up.

So this has me wondering about how Judo and BJJ and other like arts would do against multiple attackers.

For what it's worth - I think initially a TKD (striker) would do ok, as long as they kept moving and made it #1 priority to get out of there as quickly as possible. Basically, deal with what you have to then beat feet out of there as fast as you can. The thing with multiple attackers is that if you allow them enough time, stopping them is like trying to stop the incoming tide. Sooner or later someone is going to pull a knife and stab you, or you're going to get grabbed by several guys at once... sooner or later it's going to get ugly for you.

Your turn. How would Judo or BJJ do in this situation?

 

[Sensei Payne]

It's something I find very frustrating that some cannot accept that you can fight in the rules when you want and without rules when you need to.

Ever here of "You are what you eat"?

You are what you train...if I train to pull a punch a million times..when it comes time to actually punch someone..I am most likely gonna pull it.

If you train to kick to the head...then..your going to kick to the head.

If you are wearing pads on your torso when you get hit in the gut, and your used to that...then you won't be able to handle it when your not wearing pads.

Its all about what you train to.

 

[Tez3]

Ever here of "You are what you eat"?

You are what you train...if I train to pull a punch a million times..when it comes time to actually punch someone..I am most likely gonna pull it.

If you train to kick to the head...then..your going to kick to the head.

If you are wearing pads on your torso when you get hit in the gut, and your used to that...then you won't be able to handle it when your not wearing pads.

Its all about what you train to.

Well of course all MMA fighters are so stupid they can't possible understand the difference between fighting in a comp and defending themselves. Der! Me thick, me MMA fighter.

Sigh, show me an MMA fighter who pulls his punches and who wears pads when fighting.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Well of course all MMA fighters are so stupid they can't possible understand the difference between fighting in a comp and defending themselves. Der! Me thick, me MMA fighter.

Sigh, show me an MMA fighter who pulls his punches and who wears pads when fighting.

I never said that MMA fighters pull there punches on the pads...but they do train to strike certain spots....which are all legal in the ring, unlike where you are working in Self Defense you can strike the neck, groin, bite...etc..do what you gotta do to survive.

You are what you train.

 

[Tez3]

I never said that MMA fighters pull there punches on the pads...but they do train to strike certain spots....which are all legal in the ring, unlike where you are working in Self Defense you can strike the neck, groin, bite...etc..do what you gotta do to survive.

You are what you train.

So in a fight your attackers hand is close to your mouth and you think an MMA fighter can't bite it because he's stuck in 'rules' mode? That's just ridiculous!

Do you seriously mean to tell me that an MMA fighter goes into the cage/ring in a red mist and doesn't know where he/she is striking? that they don't think during a fight? it isn't all instictive you know, you have to have your wits about you both in the comp and in a SD situation. I've watched several MMA fighters switch from rules to no rules quite easily, in fact perhaps too easily for many. Personally I could bite, grab nuts and a whole lot of other things long before I ever trained MA.

It doesn't occur to you that a bloody good punch could finish a fight before you have to get that 'personal' with your attacker, a very good karateka told me his first move is to punch if that doesn't work, which is rarely he then goes on to the SD techniques. MMA fighters train to knock people out, to choke people out and to make them submit. Now taking your thought that MMA fighters are what they train, it would mean that they put a choke or arm bar on and keep it on until the guys dead or arms broken simply because theres no ref to tell him to stop ROFLMAO!

I take it then when you train you actually do pull testicles off, bite people and strike to the neck? If you don't, remember, you are what you train and when you go to do it for real you will only do it the way you trained, which is to just go through the motions.

 

[Champ-Pain]

- I would like to ask a question: How do you feel Judo or BJJ would do against multiple attackers?

I was a gang-banger in my youth - so it's happened to me, on more than a few occations... and I've always walked away a winner, at least in my own mind. I don't want you to think that because Judo and BJJ are my styles of choice, that I don't strike as well. I do. So you see, I don't go into a street fight in my Judo GI and try to throw my opponent by IPPON and hold him in a pin. No sir. In fact, if I find any kind of weapon - rock, bottle, chair, stick, ANYTHING - I will use it to my advantage - and when I do use my Judo or BJJ - it will most certainly NOT be in a "biker bar" or anywhere else I will be attacked by multiples, once I've taken my opponent down - and usually out.

 

[Tez3]

I was a gang-banger in my youth - so it's happened to me, on more than a few occations... and I've always walked away a winner, at least in my own mind. I don't want you to think that because Judo and BJJ are my styles of choice, that I don't strike as well. I do. So you see, I don't go into a street fight in my Judo GI and try to throw my opponent by IPPON and hold him in a pin. No sir. In fact, if I find any kind of weapon - rock, bottle, chair, stick, ANYTHING - I will use it to my advantage - and when I do use my Judo or BJJ - it will most certainly NOT be in a "biker bar" or anywhere else I will be attacked by multiples, once I've taken my opponent down - and usually out.

Ah the joys of a common language...a gang banger here is someone who takes part in a 'gang bang' ie group sex...on the other hand.....

How on earth can you grab a weapon when you train Judo and BJJ? Gasp! you can only do what you train!

 

[tinker1]

I was a gang-banger in my youth - so it's happened to me, on more than a few occations... and I've always walked away a winner, at least in my own mind. I don't want you to think that because Judo and BJJ are my styles of choice, that I don't strike as well. I do. So you see, I don't go into a street fight in my Judo GI and try to throw my opponent by IPPON and hold him in a pin. No sir. In fact, if I find any kind of weapon - rock, bottle, chair, stick, ANYTHING - I will use it to my advantage - and when I do use my Judo or BJJ - it will most certainly NOT be in a "biker bar" or anywhere else I will be attacked by multiples, once I've taken my opponent down - and usually out.

I thought as much. Basically all of us will do SD in the same way - regardless of style and competition type etc. We all do what needs to be done, then get the heck out.

 

[Sensei Payne]

So in a fight your attackers hand is close to your mouth and you think an MMA fighter can't bite it because he's stuck in 'rules' mode? That's just ridiculous!

Do you seriously mean to tell me that an MMA fighter goes into the cage/ring in a red mist and doesn't know where he/she is striking? that they don't think during a fight? it isn't all instictive you know, you have to have your wits about you both in the comp and in a SD situation. I've watched several MMA fighters switch from rules to no rules quite easily, in fact perhaps too easily for many. Personally I could bite, grab nuts and a whole lot of other things long before I ever trained MA.

It doesn't occur to you that a bloody good punch could finish a fight before you have to get that 'personal' with your attacker, a very good karateka told me his first move is to punch if that doesn't work, which is rarely he then goes on to the SD techniques. MMA fighters train to knock people out, to choke people out and to make them submit. Now taking your thought that MMA fighters are what they train, it would mean that they put a choke or arm bar on and keep it on until the guys dead or arms broken simply because theres no ref to tell him to stop ROFLMAO!

I take it then when you train you actually do pull testicles off, bite people and strike to the neck? If you don't, remember, you are what you train and when you go to do it for real you will only do it the way you trained, which is to just go through the motions.

First of all I just wanna say that your last part about pulling testicales mad eme laugh.

Secondly...My thing is, is that most fights don't start like a Sport senario does and there are so many more variables than the ring can provide.

I am NOT saying that MMA styles are no good..or you can't use it at all in a SD situation..i am simply saying that when you get into the mind set of sport..your going to use Techniques and styles you wouldn't necessarily use on the street...you would more than likely use the least force necessary to handle your opponet...what if he has friends...or a weapon, etc..your not going to administer techniques that provide a good show, or simply tire your opponet...you would go stright for the "kill" and finish it as soon as humanly possible....which SPORT MA does NOT provide. Fast Knockouts do happen in sports..but its rare.

 

[Tez3]

First of all I just wanna say that your last part about pulling testicales mad eme laugh.

Secondly...My thing is, is that most fights don't start like a Sport senario does and there are so many more variables than the ring can provide.

I am NOT saying that MMA styles are no good..or you can't use it at all in a SD situation..i am simply saying that when you get into the mind set of sport..your going to use Techniques and styles you wouldn't necessarily use on the street...you would more than likely use the least force necessary to handle your opponet...what if he has friends...or a weapon, etc..your not going to administer techniques that provide a good show, or simply tire your opponet...you would go stright for the "kill" and finish it as soon as humanly possible....which SPORT MA does NOT provide. Fast Knockouts do happen in sports..but its rare.

When people talk about MMA fighters they think the UFC type of pro fighter but in reality most MMA fighters are your everyday martial artists who fight now and again, maybe three or four times a year, there is no 'sport mindset' with them. Judochamp has already explained to you that he'll quite happily pick up a weapon, as would we all, training MMA doesn't stop the fighting instinct at all. What on earth makes you think MMA fighters would use minimum force? It's rather insulting too that you think fighters use techniques to 'put on a good show'! It's not pro wrestling you know and using techniques to tire out your opponent also tire you out so they don't get used. I think you know very little about what happens in an MMA fight. MMA fighters don't want the fight to go beyond the first round, they want KO's, they don't want it to go to the judges so they go for the 'kill'. Why go three, four or even five five minute rounds when you can end the fight in the first minute of the first round? Sure promoters hate it but that's tough, the fighters want short fights. At a fight night on Sunday, one of ours finished his fight in the second minute of the first round, short and sharp, that's the way it should be.

Tinker got it absolutely spot on, we all fight the same when it comes down to it. Well done that man!

 

[Sensei Payne]

I thought as much. Basically all of us will do SD in the same way - regardless of style and competition type etc. We all do what needs to be done, then get the heck out.

I agree with this 100%...do whatever you gotta do.

The arguement has nothing to do with that...

nor does it have anything to do with MMA specifically.

I am generalizing all Sport MA together, as not being good enough ALONE for SD.

 

[Tez3]

I agree with this 100%...do whatever you gotta do.

The arguement has nothing to do with that...

nor does it have anything to do with MMA specifically.

I am generalizing all Sport MA together, as not being good enough ALONE for SD.

But those that train for SD aren't going to be any better prepared if we go with your analogy of being what you train. You may laugh at my saying pulling testicles off but if you don't do that in training you are no different from those who pull their punches in training. You state we are what we train so unless you actually practice all those techniques for real ie biting, gouging, stiking into the groin you are doing exactly what you say 'sport's MAs are doing, it's 'watered down' which means really that 'sport' MA is as good as any SD.

 

[Champ-Pain]

How on earth can you grab a weapon when you train Judo and BJJ? Gasp! you can only do what you train!

I train in Judo & BJJ in the dojo, and I also train in street fighting - on the streets of MIAMI... besides, I have two hands to grab with. One to grab my opponent and throw him outta the way and into tomorrow - and the other, to hold, throw, swing, shoot, etc. whatever weapon I happen to have in my hands, at the time. I can also run fairly fast, in case I have to make a quick get away.

 

[Tez3]

I train in Judo & BJJ in the dojo, and I also train in street fighting - on the streets of MIAMI... besides, I have two hands to grab with. One to grab my opponent and throw him outta the way and into tomorrow - and the other, to hold, throw, swing, shoot, etc. whatever weapon I happen to have in my hands, at the time. I can also run fairly fast, in case I have to make a quick get away.

I wish you'd come on to MT earlier! Late last year several of my students went across to Florida for a holiday after deployment in Afghan ( the big theme places there give free entry to British service personnel, big thanks there), you would have enjoyed training with them! Not only are they squaddies who train MMA they are Scottish squaddies,whose fighting skills are honed on the streets of Glasgow, home of the Glasgow 'kiss' lol!

Our instructor is a head doorman in Newcastle another 'hard' city here, he's done the doors in London as well as being an ex squaddie himself. It's nuts to say because you do one style you can't defend yourself on the street, even people with no martial arts training can do that, admittedly with varying degrees of success but the fight is in inside us it's not just techniques.

 

[tinker1]

Originally Posted by Tez3

How on earth can you grab a weapon when you train Judo and BJJ? Gasp! you can only do what you train!

My father finished the war (WW2) as a Marine DI. He said back then they were taught "Judo" for hand to hand combat. I'm sure that his "combat Judo" differs from "sport or olympic Judo". However just because an art includes a sport aspect, that does not make it invalid for self defense.

I think the issue is emphasis - if virtually ALL of the training is about sport, then what is learned becomes less valid for self defense than a more traditional or well rounded training.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah the joys of a common language...a gang banger here is someone who takes part in a 'gang bang' ie group sex...on the other hand.....

It's used that way here too. um, or so I've heard...

 

[Champ-Pain]

the fight is in inside us it's not just techniques.

It's NOT the size of the dog in the fight - It's the size of the fight in the dog! :btg:

 

[Champ-Pain]

If virtually ALL of the training is about sport, then what is learned becomes less valid for self defense than a more traditional or well rounded training.

Exactomundo!!! - On the other hand - anything that is learned, has to be better than no knowledge at all.

WOW! Did I just say that? The TKD guys must be getting to me.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Over all I belive that the way you will react during a a SD situation is going to relect the way you train.

And when you train, you must have the intent of doing whatever it takes to make it out alive and safe...and not be thinking about the best way to make your next point.