Waist movement

Kung Fu Wang

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The blocking skill is all about the "waist movement". If you move your waist

- to your right/left, your waist will guide your arm to your left/right.
- clockwise/counter-clockwise, your waist will guide your left/right arm as outside in circle.

If you only think about your waist, and let your waist to control your arms, the body movement can be simplified.

A right arm outside in block can be as simple as to move your waist to your right.

Your thought?
 

skribs

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I discovered this when I was boxing with my nephew, just messing around in the living room. I didn't even move my arm. I just circled my right leg around to my left, and I popped him with a pretty good left hook. Without moving my arm.

It's the same thing as the back stance/front stance switch in Taekwondo, or dropping your hip into a punch in boxing.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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The blocking skill is all about the "waist movement". If you move your waist

- to your right/left, your waist will guide your arm to your left/right.
- clockwise/counter-clockwise, your waist will guide your left/right arm as outside in circle.

If you only think about your waist, and let your waist to control your arms, the body movement can be simplified.

A right arm outside in block can be as simple as to move your waist to your right.

Your thought?
Im having difficulty visualiIng this. Any chance you have a video?
 

skribs

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Im having difficulty visualiIng this. Any chance you have a video?

As a very simple illustration, stand up and point at something. Now walk in a circle. What you point at changes.

Now, assume a fighting stance. Point your lead hand towards the target, however you want, in a guard position. Point your back leg to the right and left to open and close your hips. See what it does to your hand.

Now go to a corner of the wall. Assume the same stance and guard position as in the second step. As you turn your hips again, you'll notice that your guard hand will go back and forth, effectively "blocking" that corner.

This is just to illustrate the concept.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Im having difficulty visualiIng this. Any chance you have a video?
- Hold both hands together.
- Keep your arms fully extend in front of you as shoulder high.
- Freeze your whole body.
- Move your waist/hip to your right.

Does this help you to move your arms to your left?
 

Buka

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I utilize the turn of the waist area a lot. Kind of hard not to.
 

wab25

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The blocking skill is all about the "waist movement". If you move your waist

- to your right/left, your waist will guide your arm to your left/right.
- clockwise/counter-clockwise, your waist will guide your left/right arm as outside in circle.

If you only think about your waist, and let your waist to control your arms, the body movement can be simplified.

A right arm outside in block can be as simple as to move your waist to your right.

Your thought?
My thought is that a lot of katas / forms are there to help you to study this idea and to refine it. If I want my waist / hip to power my lead hand punch, I have to move one way. If I want to power my reverse punch, I need to move it a different way. If I want to maximize the power a technique has, I need to unify or coordinate the movement of my waist / hips with the movement of my hands. Do I want my hand to lead the punch or my waist / hips to lead the punch. The katas and forms provide ways to study these movements. I think its one of the first things to learn in kata / forms... is how to better unify my body movements.
 

Flying Crane

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My thought is that a lot of katas / forms are there to help you to study this idea and to refine it. If I want my waist / hip to power my lead hand punch, I have to move one way. If I want to power my reverse punch, I need to move it a different way. If I want to maximize the power a technique has, I need to unify or coordinate the movement of my waist / hips with the movement of my hands. Do I want my hand to lead the punch or my waist / hips to lead the punch. The katas and forms provide ways to study these movements. I think its one of the first things to learn in kata / forms... is how to better unify my body movements.
In my opinion, BINGO!

I believe forms are less about the technique and more about the principles driving the technique. Technique is the embodiment of the principles. Technique is just the tool used to express the principle. When the principles are understood, technique becomes easy.
 

skribs

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In my opinion, BINGO!

I believe forms are less about the technique and more about the principles driving the technique. Technique is the embodiment of the principles. Technique is just the tool used to express the principle. When the principles are understood, technique becomes easy.

This is, in my opinion, one of the biggest pitfalls of Taekwondo poomsae. They are pretty much about just copying the technique.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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This is, in my opinion, one of the biggest pitfalls of Taekwondo poomsae. They are pretty much about just copying the technique.
Is that a tkd thing? At least in kenpo, ive always viewed it as depending on the instructor. The instructor can focus on you just copying the technique, or they can break it down, and help you understand the purpose of each aspect. Thats true of at least some forks that are shared with tkd as well, from what i know. Literally the point of the pinyans is to teach basic/ fundamental movement/striking principles.

Competitions are different, obviously, but im not a huge fan of form competitions in general.
 

skribs

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Is that a tkd thing? At least in kenpo, ive always viewed it as depending on the instructor. The instructor can focus on you just copying the technique, or they can break it down, and help you understand the purpose of each aspect. Thats true of at least some forks that are shared with tkd as well, from what i know. Literally the point of the pinyans is to teach basic/ fundamental movement/striking principles.

Competitions are different, obviously, but im not a huge fan of form competitions in general.

Granted, I've only been in 2 schools. But...
  1. At my first school, I did not really understand forms. I didn't get why we did them, or what we were supposed to get out of them. This was from age 7-11.
  2. My new school is big on the memorization of the forms, and copying the technique as best you can. It's strange, because in Hapkido, we are supposed to apply the techniques and modify them to fit the situation, but in Taekwondo we are supposed to exact copy.
  3. Searches for the application of Taekwondo poomsae (whether in Google or Youtube) have turned up very little amount of results from TKD schools. The closest I come is Shotokan karate.
  4. Questions I've asked about the purpose of techniques in TKD forms on this forum have been met with a bunch of guesswork, suppositions, and holier-than-thou "figure it out yourself" types of posts. There's also been discussions of how it works in other arts, which don't really apply to our training.
  5. Discussions I've had on other forums see the TKD forms as basically useless junk you do so you can get your belt.
So it's a pretty broad brush that I'm seeing TKD practitioners who don't really understand how it connects.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I believe forms are less about the technique and more about the principles driving the technique.
This argument has been going on between the long fist system and the preying mantis system.

In the

- long fist system, most of the moves in the form are for principle development.
- preying mantis system, all the moves in the form are for technique development.

Long fist guys will say preying mantis guys don't have good foundation. Preying mantis guys will say long fist guys don't have realistic technique.

If you want to work on

- principle, you may want to go to the extreme.
- technique, you may want to do exactly as you fight.

Sometime it's hard to do both at the same time.
 

Flying Crane

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This argument has been going on between the long fist system and the preying mantis system.

In the

- long fist system, most of the moves in the form are for principle development.
- preying mantis system, all the moves in the form are for technique development.

Long fist guys will say preying mantis guys don't have good foundation. Preying mantis guys will say long fist guys don't have realistic technique.

If you want to work on

- principle, you may want to go to the extreme.
- technique, you may want to do exactly as you fight.

Sometime it's hard to do both at the same time.
Ultimately, both should be developed. But when the foundation is well developed, it is easier to understand the proper mechanics for the technique. Application of the technique needs to be instructed and should be happening all along.

Thats my opinion.
 

Martial D

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The blocking skill is all about the "waist movement". If you move your waist

- to your right/left, your waist will guide your arm to your left/right.
- clockwise/counter-clockwise, your waist will guide your left/right arm as outside in circle.

If you only think about your waist, and let your waist to control your arms, the body movement can be simplified.

A right arm outside in block can be as simple as to move your waist to your right.

Your thought?
Boxing 101

Hips is angles

Hips is power

Hips is leverage

Hips is everything really.
 

Flying Crane

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Is that a tkd thing? At least in kenpo, ive always viewed it as depending on the instructor. The instructor can focus on you just copying the technique, or they can break it down, and help you understand the purpose of each aspect. Thats true of at least some forks that are shared with tkd as well, from what i know. Literally the point of the pinyans is to teach basic/ fundamental movement/striking principles.

Competitions are different, obviously, but im not a huge fan of form competitions in general.
In my experience with Tracy lineage kenpo, we always talked about the application of the technique. Many of our forms were built with the Self Defense scenarios that much of the formal curriculum is built with. Those scenarios, the self defense techniques were strung together into the forms. We learned these SD Techs first, we understood the application of each piece of them and as a whole, before we ever learned the form. So that application level was always there.

What I realized in hindsight, after some years in Kung fu where the curriculum is structured differently and the way we went about training it was different, is that we never really gave much focus to foundation in the kenpo that I experienced. We talked about it, we had a concept of it, but I dont believe there was a systematic methodology for developing it. So whether or not someone had a good foundation was kind of hit-or-miss. I think some of the people figure it out, but I wonder how much of that is dumb luck.

At any rate, when I talk about foundation, I am not talking about understanding the application. That is something else. Foundation is how you use your body to move as a unit, with efficiency and power. This makes techniques on a basic level strong, which makes application effective.

If foundation is weak or not well understood, then your technique is weak. Then, no matter how thorough is your understanding of application, it will be less effective than it could be. In this case, people often rely on physical strength, which can be effective. But it is not as affective as it could be. And, as someone ages, their effectiveness will diminish faster as their physical strength and athleticism diminishes.

So, in forms/kata that are well designed and well structured (which not all forms/kata are, in my opinion) it is an exercise in developing the foundation from various positions and postures and movements. As you move and transition from one technique to another, it challenges you to be mindful of your foundation and to keep the foundational principles engaged while you express the techniques. As I said in an earlier post, the technique expresses the principles. So your techniques develop as you focus on your foundation.

For forms that are NOT built like the kenpo forms I described above, you still need instruction in how to apply the various techniques and combinations of techniques found within that form. Much of it is pretty intuitive and directly useful. Deeper applications and more thorough understanding will still require instruction.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Ultimately, both should be developed. But when the foundation is well developed, it is easier to understand the proper mechanics for the technique. Application of the technique needs to be instructed and should be happening all along.

Thats my opinion.
Should there be some staging?

For example, in the 1st 5 (or 10) years you try to develop principle. After 5 (or 10)years, you start to develop technique.

To have good foundation is important. But how good foundation do you need? Do you need to make all "A" scores in your grade school before you can move to your high school? Even if you may develop 20 feet concrete foundation, soon or later you still need to build your house on it. Does it make sense to keep doing Taiji push hand, or WC sticky hand when you are 70?
 

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It all actually happens pretty simultaneously. And I feel this foundational practice should always be part of training. Forever until you die. That is my opinion.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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In my experience with Tracy lineage kenpo, we always talked about the application of the technique. Many of our forms were built with the Self Defense scenarios that much of the formal curriculum is built with. Those scenarios, the self defense techniques were strung together into the forms. We learned these SD Techs first, we understood the application of each piece of them and as a whole, before we ever learned the form. So that application level was always there.

What I realized in hindsight, after some years in Kung fu where the curriculum is structured differently and the way we went about training it was different, is that we never really gave much focus to foundation in the kenpo that I experienced. We talked about it, we had a concept of it, but I dont believe there was a systematic methodology for developing it. So whether or not someone had a good foundation was kind of hit-or-miss. I think some of the people figure it out, but I wonder how much of that is dumb luck.

At any rate, when I talk about foundation, I am not talking about understanding the application. That is something else. Foundation is how you use your body to move as a unit, with efficiency and power. This makes techniques on a basic level strong, which makes application effective.

If foundation is weak or not well understood, then your technique is weak. Then, no matter how thorough is your understanding of application, it will be less effective than it could be. In this case, people often rely on physical strength, which can be effective. But it is not as affective as it could be. And, as someone ages, their effectiveness will diminish faster as their physical strength and athleticism diminishes.

So, in forms/kata that are well designed and well structured (which not all forms/kata are, in my opinion) it is an exercise in developing the foundation from various positions and postures and movements. As you move and transition from one technique to another, it challenges you to be mindful of your foundation and to keep the foundational principles engaged while you express the techniques. As I said in an earlier post, the technique expresses the principles. So your techniques develop as you focus on your foundation.

For forms that are NOT built like the kenpo forms I described above, you still need instruction in how to apply the various techniques and combinations of techniques found within that form. Much of it is pretty intuitive and directly useful. Deeper applications and more thorough understanding will still require instruction.
In either of my kem/npos, the forms are not a direct one to one relation from techniques, although i can easily see how that would happen. What i have learned is forms are dor principle and foundation, while techniques are for application. And then about five years ago, i made a personal discovery that, while some of the application is crap, they still teach the foundational stuff (if you ignore the fluff).

If i were to ever teach kempo (i wouldn't, at least not as it's own thing), forms and techniques would both be foundational, drills and sparring would be application.
 
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