Counter to throw

[Kung Fu Wang]

Judo rules mean there are fewer places to defend, but it doesn't make the hand position entirely predictable,

In jacket wrestling, if you don't let your opponent to grab under your leading arm, more than 75% of his throw will not work.

This will not be an issue in no jacket wrestling. The question is, in jacket wrestling, when your opponent's hand gets a hold under your leading arm, the 1st thing that come into your mind is whether to:

1. get a grip on your opponent at the same time, or
2. break apart his grips.

I don't like the clinch situation in the following picture.

I prefer to tear apart my opponent's grips first.

While you are tearing apart your opponent's grips, and your opponent is moving with you, you can attack at the same time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but non of those places exist, they are not phyical location, just political entities

you could narrow it down by geoghacal features, like mountains.

but those would still be in europe, and would be the same as say a low grip or a high grip,or a wide grip v a norrow grip but still very predictable, , as there are only so many variations like there ate only so many moubtains in europe,and as they are not attacking Antarctica

So, "Europe" is a place, but "Netherlands" isn't. I see your habit of twisting things to defend your mistakes hasn't changed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most folks know I am more of an up fighter. But I do have some wrestling experience.
When you say "fewer places to defend" are you talking about leverage points or are there specific places that are off limits in Judo competition?

If they aren't allowed to grip below the waist, you don't have to defend any of those points against grips.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In jacket wrestling, if you don't let your opponent to grab under your leading arm, more than 75% of his throw will not work.

At the same time, defending against that grip under the sleeve means you can't do other things (like grab a lapel) that would expose you to that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At the same time, defending against that grip under the sleeve means you can't do other things (like grab a lapel) that would expose you to that.

This is why the proper process should be:

1. I grab on your wrist (the starting point).
2. I then move my hand from your wrist to your lapel.
3. You grab under my sleeve.
4. I tear apart your sleeve hold, and ...

You may think that 1, 2 can be a waist. But 1, 2 can cause 4 (I have 1 grip on you, but you have no grip on me).

You need a grip in order to break your opponent's grip. When you tear apart your opponent's grip, at that moment, you have a grip on him, but he has no grip on you. That's the best time to attack.

The grip fight can create a great amount of opportunity for you to attack. The grip fight is not wasting time.

When you have 1 grip on your opponent, but your opponent has no grip on you, when you attack, your opponent is still trying to get a grip on you. You are 1 step ahead of your opponent. That's your advantage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is why the proper process should be:

1. I grab on your wrist (the starting point).
2. I then move my hand from your wrist to your lapel.
3. You grab under my sleeve.
4. I tear apart your sleeve hold, and ...

You may think that 1, 2 can be a waist. But 1, 2 can cause 4 (I have 1 grip on you, but you have no grip on me).

You need a grip in order to break your opponent's grip. When you tear apart your opponent's grip, at that moment, you have a grip on him, but he has no grip on you. That's the best time to attack.

The grip fight can create a great amount of opportunity for you to attack. The grip fight is not wasting time.

When you have 1 grip on your opponent, but your opponent has no grip on you, when you attack, your opponent is still trying to get a grip on you. You are 1 step ahead of your opponent. That's your advantage.

That's _a_ valid process, not "the proper process". There are throws that can utilize that lapel grip, with or without that under-sleeve grip by the other guy. There are also counters that can utilize that lapel grip.

 

[jobo]

So, "Europe" is a place, but "Netherlands" isn't. I see your habit of twisting things to defend your mistakes hasn't changed.

yes europes a place netherlands is a poltical construct,( we arnt even allowed to discuss politics) if you said the low countries, then that at least is a geographic feateure in the continent, then it includes more that is covered by the concept of netherlands

 

[jobo]

So, "Europe" is a place, but "Netherlands" isn't. I see your habit of twisting things to defend your mistakes hasn't changed.

great britain of course is a geographic feature, if youd have said i would have to have concieded at least that point, however you said uk, which is a concept added to a concept and so less real than just about anywhere else,, exceptibg the united states and uae

 

[dvcochran]

If they aren't allowed to grip below the waist, you don't have to defend any of those points against grips.

Are you penalized or does the match stop if you inadvertently grip below the waist?

 

[jobo]

Are you penalized or does the match stop if you inadvertently grip below the waist?

its very difficult to inadvertently grip below the waist, as you first have to inadverrantly drop your arms, then inadertantly move them forward before inadvertantly griping, one inadvertently, ok but three seems unlikely

 

[Ivan]

In wrestling, when a counter works on you, sometime it's your fault because you allow your opponent's hand to control a certain part of your body. If you spend some effort not to allow such things to happen, your opponent will have less chance to counter your throw.

When you apply a throw, if you can control your opponent's leading arm, he will only have one free arm left to counter you. But if you can control both of his arms, most of his counters won't work.

In the following clip, he allows his opponent's left arm to warp around his waist. He should release his right hand hold, over hook his opponent's left arm, and put pressure on that elbow joint instead.

IMO, you should spend a certain amount of effort not to let your opponent to control any effective contact point on you (such as the waist wrap in the following example). This may reduce your offense ability. But it's a worthwhile trade off.

In the striking art, offense may be the best defense. But in the wrestling art, to allow your opponent to have free arm/arms is not a good idea.

Your thought?

There is a much simpler counter to a throw, which I managed to apply in a real-life situation. Instead of relying on the placement of limbs and arm strength, you can avoid being thrown by lowering your center of gravity aka squatting. During a fight before the start of my college class, a classmate attempted to apply a Judo hip throw with one hand behind my waist and another holding my wrist (if I remember correctly).

I have trained in traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu, and I was taught to squat if someone attempted to apply such hip throw techniques on me. It worked and he wasn't able to lift me off of the ground. This gives you complete access to your opponent, if you act quickly, as he is facing with his back towards you.

EDIT: Grammar
EDIT #2: You can also counter throws such as suplexes by hooking one of your feet around that of the attacker attempting to suplex you. I learned this in Krav Maga and I feel like it's one of the most useful things I have learned in my martial arts career up until now.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you can avoid being thrown by lowering your center of gravity aka squatting.

If you want to sink down, your opponent can help you to sink down more than you want to.

When your opponent changes, you also change. That's why the wrestling game is so interested.

 

[Ivan]

T

If you want to sink down, your opponent can help you to sink down more than you want to.

When your opponent changes, you also change. That's why the wrestling game is so interested.

That is also true, but fights are all about how you react in the heat of the moment. If you don't take advantage of the opportunity you created by countering your throw, your opponent will take advantage of your hesitation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you penalized or does the match stop if you inadvertently grip below the waist?

Penalties, I think.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a much simpler counter to a throw, which I managed to apply in a real-life situation. Instead of relying on the placement of limbs and arm strength, you can avoid being thrown by lowering your center of gravity aka squatting. During a fight before the start of my college class, a classmate attempted to apply a Judo hip throw with one hand behind my waist and another holding my wrist (if I remember correctly).

I have trained in traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu, and I was taught to squat if someone attempted to apply such hip throw techniques on me. It worked and he wasn't able to lift me off of the ground. This gives you complete access to your opponent, if you act quickly, as he is facing with his back towards you.

EDIT: Grammar
EDIT #2: You can also counter throws such as suplexes by hooking one of your feet around that of the attacker attempting to suplex you. I learned this in Krav Maga and I feel like it's one of the most useful things I have learned in my martial arts career up until now.

Most throws have some similar simple counters if they don't break your structure sufficiently before starting it. In Judo competition situations, it's often difficult to get full structure breaking, so you see a lot of attempts at throws that don't turn into anything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but fights are all about how you react in the heat of the moment. If you don't take advantage of the opportunity you created by countering your throw, your opponent will take advantage of your hesitation.

That's why a wrestler's body should act like a fish. It vibrates so fast that you can't get a solid hold on it. When you sink down, the moment that you feel your opponent tries to push you down, the moment that you raise up again.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Penalties, I think.

Are you saying those counters in the following clip cannot be used in Judo competition since his hand is on his opponent's knee joint?

IMO, the best counter to a hip throw is to put one of your hands behind your opponent's knee joint, and help him to bend his knee more than he truly wants to. Again, this is your opponent's fault because he has not controlled your leading arm tight enough, and allow your leading arm to be able to reach to his knee joint.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's why a wrestler's body should act like a fish. It vibrates so fast that you can't get a solid hold on it. When you sink down, the moment that you feel your opponent tries to push you down, the moment that you raise up again.

That's not always a good approach. Principles in Judo (and Aikido) are based upon using that reaction against you. Just because someone pushes down, that doesn't mean that's the direction they want you to go.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you saying those counters in the following clip cannot be used in Judo competition since his hand is on his opponent's knee joint?

IMO, the best counter to a hip throw is to put one of your hands behind your opponent's knee joint, and help him to bend his knee more than he truly wants to. Again, this is your opponent's fault because he has not controlled your leading arm tight enough, and allow your leading arm to be able to reach to his knee joint.

I don't know what counts as a "grip" - my involvement in the rules of Judo was 35 years ago. It may be that it's okay as long as you don't grab cloth.

 

[drop bear]

There is a much simpler counter to a throw, which I managed to apply in a real-life situation. Instead of relying on the placement of limbs and arm strength, you can avoid being thrown by lowering your center of gravity aka squatting. During a fight before the start of my college class, a classmate attempted to apply a Judo hip throw with one hand behind my waist and another holding my wrist (if I remember correctly).

I have trained in traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu, and I was taught to squat if someone attempted to apply such hip throw techniques on me. It worked and he wasn't able to lift me off of the ground. This gives you complete access to your opponent, if you act quickly, as he is facing with his back towards you.

EDIT: Grammar
EDIT #2: You can also counter throws such as suplexes by hooking one of your feet around that of the attacker attempting to suplex you. I learned this in Krav Maga and I feel like it's one of the most useful things I have learned in my martial arts career up until now.

Dropping your hips works really well. A lot of MMA BJJ style throws do weird offset hips during hip throws to give you a chance to recover and not have your back taken.

Eg. A wrestling hip toss with weird hips.