Understanding The Weapon Before Defending Against It

[Jenna]

What do you mean, "silly JPG costumes"? Apparently Jean Paul came up with some rather outrageous ones initially, in order to shock the cast into agreeing to whatever he did afterwards, thinking "well, at least we got out of those first ones!"... brilliant strategy, really!

As to the more serious side, not wanting to speak for Bill, but I'm sure he'd agree here, a gun should always be treated as loaded and ready to fire. And, as I said, under the stress of adrenaline, you probably wouldn't notice or recognise where the safety catch was, or if it was on or not. The advantages to knowing about the weapon are more to do with understanding things like the muzzle flash, where you're still likely to get a powder burn, what a bullet will ricochet off, and what it won't, what type of kickback can be expected when it does off, and so on. Knowing all guns, and their intimate differences? No, not necessary. Knowing how a gun acts and reacts? Highly advantageous.

Christopher, how does a gun act? It shoots bullets (I am sorry if that is not the correct term and but you know what I mean!) Guns are designed to inflict damage. I am not following how knowledge of firearm mechanisms and recoils and physics and operation affect your ow my defence against it. YES! Absolutely I would treat all firearms as potentially real (not knowing which is replica) and loaded. And for me I would defend the same way even if I suspected it was not loaded or the assailant was not going to discharge it.

I would love to know about firearms and but I still do not see how that knowledge would alter my defence against them? I think I am being stupid.

As for JPG, nice fragrance, shame about the outfits lol

 

[Chris Parker]

By understanding why you keep hearing "squeeze, don't pull" on the trigger, you can start to see how a minor change in the aim of the gun can rather drastically alter it's aim. By being familiar with the recoil when the gun is fired (this would be how it "acts", in responce to the stimulus of being fired) you will know how it will try to kick out of you grip while you are attempting to control it, by being familiar with a discharged shell you may not get surprised by a hot metal casing hitting your face as you're struggling for it, by understanding the moving parts (such as the slide) you can structure your defence around not grabbing it, and having it take off the inside of your hand if/when it goes off, possibly taking part of your thumb with it etc etc.

Then you get into the psychology of those that use such items, as mentioned by yourself and bushidomartialarts (the difference between someone trying to scare you, and someone trying to injure or kill you).

But really, the idea of a gun "acting" comes down to the physical changes when it is fired, and the more you know about that, the easier it is to design defences that take such things into account, or recognise whether or not the defences you have actually have a realistic chance or not. It won't make the gun easier to take off someone, by you can understand what will and what won't work... and I've seen a lot of gun (and knife) defences that basically are invitations to get killed... including some that get taught to the police force.

 

[Jenna]

Christopher, On psychology I understand what you are saying and but I think a knowledge of firearms would not make any difference to understanding the psychology of a gun-toting assailant? It would be to understand the gun and not the person, is this not correct? I think that would be a different lesson no?

And I follow the points regarding the principle of operation of the firearm and but still I do not understand how this knowledge would in a practical sense alter your defence - specifically as contrasted with someone who has no knowledge of that weapon?

On the point that bushidomartialarts raised, I think all the knowledge in the world will only help when there is sufficient time to analyse the data, expert or not. These opportunities I would argue come when there is weapon showiness which can sometimes indicate that the assailant does not intend to discharge or deploy the weapon. Of course that can still happen accidentally and might happen anyway if he becomes agitated or flustered so it is not an assumption to base a defence off. I think the point there is how often would hard-earned weapons knowledge be of benefit?

 

[Cyriacus]

I'd say getting your hands up into a pleading type gesture so that they are closer to the gun so that you have economy of movement in your defence would be a good first step.

The gunman will be expecting you to get your hands up and start pleading for your life , to start from a hands down position will seem very unnatural and just make the gunman more wary and give him more time to react to any telegraphic movement as you launch your defence.

Point.

In some of our Self Defense Drills, its advised that if youre unsure of the Volatility of a Situation, to put your Hands Up. It makes you look Submissive. And less likely to Disarm and Incapacitate the Person who likely feels in Control.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yes! I like this movie, especially the silly JPG costumes So then my question is, when you know about firearms and using your knowledge (assuming you have this level of Bruce Willis composure when it is pointed at you), you determine that a weapon is not loaded, do you take the risk and trust your knowledge that it is not loaded and tackle your assailant as though he were unarmed?

Is there never any doubt: hey if I have got something wrong in my assessment as someone knowledgable of firearms, then I may still get dead.

All I mean is, in a situation like that is there advantage in knowing about the weapon? Or would we not defend the same whether we knew it was loaded or not? Even knowledge of firearms is still an insufficient condition to extrapolate to "I know ALL firearms", no? I am assuming firearms they are similar and but have differences in mechanism and construction??

I had a person aim a revolver at me once. It was a H&R breaktop revolver, .22 caliber. I recognized it because I was once a gun collector. While he threatened me, I acted nonchalant and told him that I didn't even think it was loaded (actually, I could not tell). He responded by saying "Oh, yeah?" and he broke the weapon open to show me the cylinder was full of bullets. Since I knew the weapon was a breaktop, I knew he'd use two hands to open it. As soon as he placed both hands on the weapon and the action opened, I took him.

I'm not saying everybody has to know everything about guns. In my case, it helped.

I've also had toy guns pointed at me. Some of them are quite realistic unless you know guns. When someone points a toy gun at me and I know it's a toy, there is going to be an ***-whupping commencing. And that's before I started training in martial arts.

So, I think it helps. Certainly doesn't hurt.

 

[Chris Parker]

Christopher, On psychology I understand what you are saying and but I think a knowledge of firearms would not make any difference to understanding the psychology of a gun-toting assailant? It would be to understand the gun and not the person, is this not correct? I think that would be a different lesson no?

And I follow the points regarding the principle of operation of the firearm and but still I do not understand how this knowledge would in a practical sense alter your defence - specifically as contrasted with someone who has no knowledge of that weapon?

Yes and no, really. By knowing the dominant psychologies and the way they affect the usage of weapons (by knowing when it is an attempt to scare, and when a threat of injury or death), by understanding the types of people and reasons a gun may be involved, all tie in together. You are understanding the psychology of a gunman, not a gun and a man separately.

On the point that bushidomartialarts raised, I think all the knowledge in the world will only help when there is sufficient time to analyse the data, expert or not. These opportunities I would argue come when there is weapon showiness which can sometimes indicate that the assailant does not intend to discharge or deploy the weapon. Of course that can still happen accidentally and might happen anyway if he becomes agitated or flustered so it is not an assumption to base a defence off. I think the point there is how often would hard-earned weapons knowledge be of benefit?

I'll put it this way. In running through pistol defence, I was constantly going around correcting the students from putting their hands around the barrel, due to the fact that if it was a slide action (as many semi-automatic pistols are), then they could be quite injured if and or when it went off. In fact, one of my students, who is in the Army here, pulled me aside at one point to say he wasn't comfortable grabbing the barrel due to that very reason. So I showed him again that he wasn't meant to, as his partner had tried "correcting" him to do (the partner thought it would be more secure that way...).

When it comes to "how often would it be of benefit", hopefully never! But if an instructor is being in any way responsible about what they teach, such awareness and knowledge is essential.

 

[decepticon]

In an attack situation, I always assume that the gun is loaded and the safety off. In our class disarm drills, we often have more than one attacker and one or more of them may be armed. My previous comment was based on the fact that many students plan to use the gun that they have taken from the first attacker to defend against or neutralize the other attackers. In such a split second situation, IMO, it is impossible to check a gun with which you are not familiar to see if it is loaded, where it is in its cycle (eg, does another round need chambered), or if the safety is on. I fear that many students who plan to grab the gun and pop the next attacker may well find themselves going "click", and nothing happening. So no, my basic gun defense would not change for the first attacker, but unless I am very familiar with the confiscated weapon, I would be more likely to use the gun as a club to the next attacker's head rather than take the time to take my eyes off the situation to examine the unfamiliar gun.

Regarding gun knowledge, I do think it is important to understand how the weapon operates and fires. Knowing how slides and hammers move on a pistol, understanding that there can still be a round in the chamber if the magazine has been ejected, that basic operation information can help guide a person to select the most effective way to grip the gun during the disarm (I'd rather jam a slide with my hand than try to stop a bullet with my head. Sure, there will be carnage, the question is how much.) and also how to expect the gun to perform now that you are the one in posession of it.

I had to smile when you all mentioned the sound of a gunshot. We live in a very rural area where we hear gunfire all the time during hunting season and can often tell what kind of gun and sometimes even which hunter and which gun by the sound. Also my12yo daughter participates in competitive shooting sports (rifle, pistol, just added shotgun to the mix). It never occurred to me that anyone would be unfamiliar with the sound. You are very right - it can be very unnerving if you're not expecting it.

 

[jks9199]

I had a person aim a revolver at me once. It was a H&R breaktop revolver, .22 caliber. I recognized it because I was once a gun collector. While he threatened me, I acted nonchalant and told him that I didn't even think it was loaded (actually, I could not tell). He responded by saying "Oh, yeah?" and he broke the weapon open to show me the cylinder was full of bullets. Since I knew the weapon was a breaktop, I knew he'd use two hands to open it. As soon as he placed both hands on the weapon and the action opened, I took him.



I'm not saying everybody has to know everything about guns. In my case, it helped.

I've also had toy guns pointed at me. Some of them are quite realistic unless you know guns. When someone points a toy gun at me and I know it's a toy, there is going to be an ***-whupping commencing. And that's before I started training in martial arts.

So, I think it helps. Certainly doesn't hurt.

One problem with that plan... You're lucky he didn't show you it was loaded by pulling the trigger. It's a great example of a little knowledge and luck coming together... but you have to recognize the issue.

As to toy guns vs. real guns... Some toy guns and Airsoft or other replicas are VERY realistic. When I was a rookie, I stopped off in a Mcdonalds for a moment. I was approached by someone, who told me that some kids had a bb gun and were showing it to each other. At the same time, the "man with a gun" call came out. I separated the kid with the gun, and he's got it in the front pocket of his hoodie. I asked him "do you have a gun?" and got a "Oh, it's a toy..." coupled with starting to pull it out. I saw the back strap of what looked a whole lot like a Glock Model 22. Kid suddenly found me controlling him, and taking it out. Until I handled it -- it looked real. It was too light, and there were some minor details missing, but had he pointed it at me -- I'd have shot him.

Then there are these... I just did a quick search on pink guns, but there're companies out there that will refinish or recoat a gun in whatever color you want. And there are reports (and I've seen pictures, though I can't dig one up quickly now) of real guns with the tip of the barrel painted red or orange like a toy.

On the general topic of whether or not you need to understand the weapon to practice defenses -- I definitely land on the side of needing some basic understanding and familiarity with the weapon. More than the "pointy end goes in the other guy" level -- but not necessarily mastery of it. You need to know enough about guns to understand how they work, what can stop them from working, and how to make it safe if you take it away. (As well as the little legal issue that know YOU are the one with the deadly weapon!) With edged weapons, you need to know how and where they cut (is it cutting, thrusting, cutting on the backstroke like a kerambit...), what the realistic paths of attack are, and so on.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Pretty much every art has defenses against a gun and knife. Of course, as we all know, or should know, some of these defenses range from excellent to poor. So, that being said, how important do you feel, it is, to know about and understand the weapon, before you even begin to defend against it?

Lets look at a handgun. There are many types of guns out there. There are also people out there, who I'm sure have never held, let alone, actually fired a real gun. Is someone going to be confident enough, having never studied a gun, to actually defend themselves?

The same could also be said about a knife. Various sizes, grips, etc, will all come into play when executing your defense.

So, what are your thoughts?

It is essential to learn as much as possible about the weapon you're defending against,both as defender and attacker. If you know how to properly deploy a knife and say a gun? The better your chances of assessing the skill level of your assailant should you be caught without said weapon and they DO have the weapon in question,the better your ability to defend against the weapon,and should you disarm your opponent? You could completely turn the tables on him/her/them by siezing the weapon and using it (SKILLFULLY) against your assailant(s). I have people tell me that you don't have to know how to use a gun to disarm a guy using a gun.True indeed. However,your chances of disarming the weapon increase dramatically if you know what to do with a gun. You know where people will store the gun,the optimal methods of drawing aiming retaining...and thus halting avoiding and disarming...the gun toting assailant. I compare it to someone saying that you don't need to mandatorily know how to...say...box,or kickbox...to avoid a jab or knee or elbow strike. Or you don't have to know how to wrestle or subwrestle in order to defend the takedown and sublocks. True again. However,being proficient in grappling arts featuring takedowns pins and subs and striking arts comprising and using body weapons functionally dramatically increases your ability to defend against said attacks,and since we're talking about a weapon (with a much lower margin for error than you have vs empty hand attacks)? We should be that much more insistent upon informing our defenses with the knowledge of skilled knife and/or firearm instructors and their tactics. Imho.

 

[jks9199]

In an attack situation, I always assume that the gun is loaded and the safety off. In our class disarm drills, we often have more than one attacker and one or more of them may be armed. My previous comment was based on the fact that many students plan to use the gun that they have taken from the first attacker to defend against or neutralize the other attackers. In such a split second situation, IMO, it is impossible to check a gun with which you are not familiar to see if it is loaded, where it is in its cycle (eg, does another round need chambered), or if the safety is on. I fear that many students who plan to grab the gun and pop the next attacker may well find themselves going "click", and nothing happening. So no, my basic gun defense would not change for the first attacker, but unless I am very familiar with the confiscated weapon, I would be more likely to use the gun as a club to the next attacker's head rather than take the time to take my eyes off the situation to examine the unfamiliar gun.

Regarding gun knowledge, I do think it is important to understand how the weapon operates and fires. Knowing how slides and hammers move on a pistol, understanding that there can still be a round in the chamber if the magazine has been ejected, that basic operation information can help guide a person to select the most effective way to grip the gun during the disarm (I'd rather jam a slide with my hand than try to stop a bullet with my head. Sure, there will be carnage, the question is how much.) and also how to expect the gun to perform now that you are the one in posession of it.

I had to smile when you all mentioned the sound of a gunshot. We live in a very rural area where we hear gunfire all the time during hunting season and can often tell what kind of gun and sometimes even which hunter and which gun by the sound. Also my12yo daughter participates in competitive shooting sports (rifle, pistol, just added shotgun to the mix). It never occurred to me that anyone would be unfamiliar with the sound. You are very right - it can be very unnerving if you're not expecting it.

Even if you are familiar with them -- it can be hard to assess a gun's condition in a split second. I've seen well-trained, experienced officers freeze during a course of fire when they have a malfunction, especially if it isn't quickly and easily cleared. I'd never trust a gun I took off a "bad guy" to be safe to use, unless I had no other choice.

And there's a big legal issue. You take the gun they were threatening you with away... and they now are (potentially; if there's one, I assume there's another) unarmed. If you take the gun away, and shoot them -- you may have moved out of justifiable self-defense and moved into assault. Possibly murder. Kind of important to understand that, no?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi J,

I'll see if I can help here. Honestly, under the stress of having a gun put in your face, or pressed against your back, you most likely won't be able to think or see clearly enough to see that amount of detail (safety, whether it's loaded etc) thanks to the amount of adrenaline suddenly running through you. It's more a matter of understanding how things will react when you perform certain actions, such as what is likely to discharge the weapon, what happens when it does go off (kickback, flashburn, sound etc), and so on. If you don't have some experience, or at least the instructor teaching defence against it doesn't have some experience with the weapon, then certain tactics and actions can be taught which would result in the gun being discharged when you don't want it to. Additionally, being familiar with the sound (and it's effects) can help you be prepared for it when the gun does go off.

To Chris's point about adrenaline and reaction:

The first time I had a gun pointed in my face from about 4 or 5 feet away, the barel of the gun looked HUGE! The frame and slide was the size of standard 9mm, but looking down the barrel made the perspective change.

Another time someone tried to be "FUNNY" while I was carrying $2,000 in USD of Quarters. That is four (4) large bags of quarters with two in each hand. I was going to fill a bill to coin changer up. Someone stuck something into my back and said hands up! Up went my hands and the coins with them. He then said drop the bags. I did. Two of them fell on his foot and ankle. When I heard him scream I cringed and waited for the shot. Nothing happened. I turned and he was in lots of pain, with a broken ankle and yelling at me, " Why did you hurt me? " I replied, I thought it was a gun and did what you asked. If someone was willing to pull a gun in the middle of a full arcade (Coin Operated Video Games) I was not going to argue with them. He said he was going to bring suit against me. I told one of my employees to call the police and they can decide if he needs an ambulance or not. I pressed charges. Because I believed it to be a weapon and it was over $1000, it staged the felonies up.

Yet another I was outside a building, and I saw the gun come out of the window of a passing car. I saw the flash and then heard the bang in front and behind me at the same time. The car was gone and I checked myself for any injuries. It had gone between my legs.

If the shooter had truly understood the weapon he would not have locked his arm out (* which is why I believe I saw it so clearly *) with his wrist pointing down. That is the only way I can imagine with the geomotry for the bullet to have gone between my knees.

Now that being said, Chris is trying to make the point that those who do not understand that knives can cut, stab, and peel and ..., just need to train with an aluminum trainer to feel the metal and realize that wrestling with a knife is not a good thing. Understanding that the barrel is where the bullet comes out is important so you go off line, but it is also important so you do not point it at your spouse and kids while doing a technique.

One does not need to be an expert shooter in all classes of guns, nor a master knife fighter to train defenses, but they need to learn about the weapon and respect what it can and cannot do it for you and your opponent.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

One problem with that plan... You're lucky he didn't show you it was loaded by pulling the trigger. It's a great example of a little knowledge and luck coming together... but you have to recognize the issue.

I was lucky, but I had a certain level of confidence that he'd respond that way; he was 'monologuing' me.

 

[Chris Parker]

To Chris's point about adrenaline and reaction:

The first time I had a gun pointed in my face from about 4 or 5 feet away, the barel of the gun looked HUGE! The frame and slide was the size of standard 9mm, but looking down the barrel made the perspective change.

Another time someone tried to be "FUNNY" while I was carrying $2,000 in USD of Quarters. That is four (4) large bags of quarters with two in each hand. I was going to fill a bill to coin changer up. Someone stuck something into my back and said hands up! Up went my hands and the coins with them. He then said drop the bags. I did. Two of them fell on his foot and ankle. When I heard him scream I cringed and waited for the shot. Nothing happened. I turned and he was in lots of pain, with a broken ankle and yelling at me, " Why did you hurt me? " I replied, I thought it was a gun and did what you asked. If someone was willing to pull a gun in the middle of a full arcade (Coin Operated Video Games) I was not going to argue with them. He said he was going to bring suit against me. I told one of my employees to call the police and they can decide if he needs an ambulance or not. I pressed charges. Because I believed it to be a weapon and it was over $1000, it staged the felonies up.

Yet another I was outside a building, and I saw the gun come out of the window of a passing car. I saw the flash and then heard the bang in front and behind me at the same time. The car was gone and I checked myself for any injuries. It had gone between my legs.

If the shooter had truly understood the weapon he would not have locked his arm out (* which is why I believe I saw it so clearly *) with his wrist pointing down. That is the only way I can imagine with the geomotry for the bullet to have gone between my knees.

Now that being said, Chris is trying to make the point that those who do not understand that knives can cut, stab, and peel and ..., just need to train with an aluminum trainer to feel the metal and realize that wrestling with a knife is not a good thing. Understanding that the barrel is where the bullet comes out is important so you go off line, but it is also important so you do not point it at your spouse and kids while doing a technique.

One does not need to be an expert shooter in all classes of guns, nor a master knife fighter to train defenses, but they need to learn about the weapon and respect what it can and cannot do it for you and your opponent.

Thanks for these examples, Rich, that's what I was getting at.

In regards to the training with an aluminium knife, or recognising that the barrel is always pointed somewhere, so ensure it's pointing in the safest direction possible, you weren't in my class, hiding in the corner, were you?

With the aluminium knife, an interesting trick is to put it in the fridge or freezer for a short time beforehand (not so much that it's painful to hold, but enough that you instantly feel the "cool" when the blade portion touches your skin). As to the pointing of the gun, I'd go through our principles of gun defence one by one, showing how they are all needed. The first thing is to get yourself off the line of fire, and the second is to control the weapon/weapon hand. To demonstrate why they were both needed, I'd move off line, but end with the gun pointing straight at someone in the class, then look at them, and say "Oops... sorry....", followed by a demonstration of how to avoid that. And I pointed out that, if I'm with friends/family when a gun is pulled, and I can't take it off line without pointing it at one of them, I'd rather it was pointed at me. I think that caught them by surprise when I said that... But essentially, the ideal "safest" place for the gun is pointed at the bad guy, then a clear space (down, so you don't hit an office building, don't have a ricochet off walls or street sign poles, as well as extend the opponent, weakening their grip) away from other people, then finally to myself, where I am not putting anyone else in danger. I didn't advise anyone else to take that attitude, but did point out that that was how I treated such a situation.

 

[Buka]

There's so much to weapon disarming, and it's probably a higher stakes game than any other in the Arts we all train. Great points by all, we all know how difficult it is with words - in fact it's probably harder here on a computer screen than it is on the Dojo floor.

For Jenna - training with firearms can only help with disarming. Is it necessary? No, I don't believe it is. But when you train in shooting you'll train in various stances (Weaver and Isosceles) and grips of the handgun. That grip will also change slightly with various weapons. It gives you a certain feel for things you might not otherwise have. And when you're already a Martial Artists going into that training, you're more likely to notice weaknesses in other people's stances and grips than a lay person ever could.
If the instructor and range you get to use is well equipped, you might get a chance to use various holsters, both outside holsters, concealed holsters and from pockets. The bad guy doesn't always start with the gun already in your face. Drawing the weapon gives you a better sense of time. And nobody (IMO) has a better understanding of timing than a Martial Artist. I don't think anyone even comes close. This will give you a better sense of disarming than if you never drew a real handgun. It may give you a better sense of what options you have. (and it might not)

As others have already mentioned, there is the knowledge of noise of the weapon when it goes off. Even with ear protection on the range, different guns have vastly different volumes. Again, it can only add to your toolbox when you've been around that noise. And there is the subject of weight. Big "hand cannons" are much different than smaller pistols. If your assailant is a small person holding a long barreled .357, or a really big man holding a two shot derringer, it may influence you in your response - but only if you have first hand experience with both. (Bad guys don't have pistols custom made for themselves, most guns used in street crime are stolen or bought from other bad guys.)

Revolvers and semi-automatics are vastly different animals. Yes, either will kill you, but their grips and mechanical workings can almost be like night and day. When you handle a smooth, wooden handled pistol and a rubberized combat grip you'll find a completely different feel to the whole thing. Can that make a difference to your disarm? It might. Maybe not in your initial movement, but in beats two and three, because nothing goes as planned in combat. Again, you can only get that feeling by hands on use of firearms.
There's the trigger guard to consider. (the oval or rectangle shaped frame around the trigger, where you put your finger through). In beats two and three (IF there are beats two and three) you can sometimes rip a persons finger off with certain ones (assuming you didn't get shot on beat one ) This can be a very nice thing to regain control and end the threat. But realistically, you can better utilize that information if you've actively trained with firearms.

There is so much more to this. A lot more. But training with firearms, with a certified instructor, can only help you. I wouldn't go asking one about disarms, though. Unless you already know him it will send up a red flag and he might not want to train you because of liability issues and all. They already think Martial Artists are crazy.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Thanks for these examples, Rich, that's what I was getting at.

In regards to the training with an aluminium knife, or recognising that the barrel is always pointed somewhere, so ensure it's pointing in the safest direction possible, you weren't in my class, hiding in the corner, were you?

With the aluminium knife, an interesting trick is to put it in the fridge or freezer for a short time beforehand (not so much that it's painful to hold, but enough that you instantly feel the "cool" when the blade portion touches your skin). As to the pointing of the gun, I'd go through our principles of gun defence one by one, showing how they are all needed. The first thing is to get yourself off the line of fire, and the second is to control the weapon/weapon hand. To demonstrate why they were both needed, I'd move off line, but end with the gun pointing straight at someone in the class, then look at them, and say "Oops... sorry....", followed by a demonstration of how to avoid that. And I pointed out that, if I'm with friends/family when a gun is pulled, and I can't take it off line without pointing it at one of them, I'd rather it was pointed at me. I think that caught them by surprise when I said that... But essentially, the ideal "safest" place for the gun is pointed at the bad guy, then a clear space (down, so you don't hit an office building, don't have a ricochet off walls or street sign poles, as well as extend the opponent, weakening their grip) away from other people, then finally to myself, where I am not putting anyone else in danger. I didn't advise anyone else to take that attitude, but did point out that that was how I treated such a situation.

Chris,

Nope I was not hiding in your class. Yet, as I have said before, good technique and practices and principals should not be unique to a system / style or art.

I agree with the cold. It is very effective.

I also agree with your last about pointing it at you. If it is pointed at you you know where it is. You can talk, keep eye contact and keep the bad guys focused on you, so the threrat to others is minimized. This is something that just is not taught. If you have it, and I do not recommend you go out and try to find out if you do or do not, then one can optimize and or fine tune your options.

There is nothing wrong with giving the bad guy your wallet and letting them run away. You are out money and cards and time to cancel them. A pain in the butt time wise and emotionally. But a whole lot less pain than being in the hospital for you and or your family if the have to attend services for you.

Understanding the weapon, and your training can give you a perspective on what options you have and do not have.

"Knowledge is Power". And "Knowing is half the battle". To quote two (2) blurbs from TV shows and messages in the 1980's.

 

[MJS]

WOW! Lots of great replies. Thank you! My apologise for not responding sooner. To answer my own question: Yes, IMHO, I think that its very important to understand the weapon if you want to be fully capable of defending it and also using it. Many times, especially in my art (Kenpo) people say that you should be able to just put the weapon into your hand, and apply the same movements from the art. I disagree. Sure, that could be done, but IMO, those movements will be sloppy, and not as productive as if you really knew the weapon.

I'm not suggesting that one abandons their art, to take up a weapon based art. But, that doesnt mean that you can't devote time to bettering yourself and expanding your own knowledge, by crosstraining or working with someone who has knowledge.

 

[MJS]

Can anyone provide a situation where NOT being conversant (or knowledgable of) with an opponent's weapon would render someone less able to defend against it than someone else who IS conversant with that weapon?

I am not arguing the point, I am just wondering in practical terms how it makes any difference. Thank you.

Blades: Given the different sizes, grips, I think its good to know how the weapon could be used. In Kenpo, we have defenses against the typical overhead stab and straight thrust. Yes in the FMAs, you'll see numerous ways to hold the blade and be very effective with different methods of slashing, poking, etc.

Guns: Again, various sizes, auto/semi, etc.

 

[Cyriacus]

Blades: Given the different sizes, grips, I think its good to know how the weapon could be used. In Kenpo, we have defenses against the typical overhead stab and straight thrust. Yes in the FMAs, you'll see numerous ways to hold the blade and be very effective with different methods of slashing, poking, etc.

Guns: Again, various sizes, auto/semi, etc.

Furthermore, many FMAs like Escrima, will also teach using your Free Limbs to strike and grapple if your Weapon Arm is at risk.
I consider it quintessential to take this into account, since someone trained in such an Art wont for a second remain still if you catch their Weapon.

 

[mook jong man]

Furthermore, many FMAs like Escrima, will also teach using your Free Limbs to strike and grapple if your Weapon Arm is at risk.
I consider it quintessential to take this into account, since someone trained in such an Art wont for a second remain still if you catch their Weapon.

That is true , but is that the type of person that is likely to be bailing you up for your mobile phone and your wallet?
Or is it more likely the attacker will be a desperate junkie with no training at all but just an intense desire to get money for the next hit.

Training time is a finite resource that must be spent wisely , I think the bulk of the training should be spent in preparing for what is the most likely scenario to occur.

It would be a bit like saying everybody must gear their training defences against being simultaneously punched and low kicked at close range whilst one of their arms is being controlled in case they happen to run into a Wing Chun guy thats a drug addict , the chances are extremely remote of that happening.

Just going by news reports it would seem to indicate that most of the people doing the attacking would be far too lazy and lacking in character to pursue any martial art for any length of time.
They want to do things the easy way , that's why they turn to crime in the first place.

 

[chinto]

look if he knows what he is doing with a pistol or rifle or shotgun... defense??? he will be well out of reach and not talking but shooting! People who are trained with guns do not talk ( unless its a cop arresting and then they are supposed to bring them in alive for trial.) they shoot! they do not do so if they can help it at knife range but farther out. besides that if you are trying to beat a trigger squeeze you will loose, beating the man that is different. against an idiot with a gun you may have a chance...