Weapons And How They Function

[MJS]

While surfing the forum, I saw a post that was started in the TKD section on weapons. The thread was asking at what point are weapons taught. There were mixed replies, with some saying that no weapons are taught, just defense against them, and others saying that weapons are taught at a certain belt level.

So, it brought me to this question: How important do you feel it is to really understand the weapon, if you are teaching a defense against it? Now, some may feel that its not rocket science to use a knife, and while we may never faced a Filipino master on the street, there is more to it than what appears on the surface.

I've been training in the FMAs for quite some time now, and I'll admit, my eyes were opened and still are, at the things that can be done with a stick and blade. The various grips, what types of attacks can be done from each grip, counters to various disarm attempts. The list goes on and on.

I'm no handgun expert, but I do know that there are different types of guns out there. Having some basic knowledge of how each gun functions may determine how we go about a defense.

So, what are everyones thoughts on this?

Mike

 

[Kacey]

Well, I'm of two opinions on the matter. I understand what you're saying, that it's much easier to teach defense against a weapon you understand how to use... but at the same time, as an instructor, I have only so much time in which to teach. I have to pick and choose what I teach; if I teach too much at once, or hit things too rarely. In a perfect world, with endless time - I would definitely agree; your way is best. In the world we have, where time is at a premium - as an instructor, and even as a student, I have to pick and choose what I have time to do. It sucks that I have to make that kind of choice - but that's a choice each person has to make.

 

[stickarts]

My view is that it depends upon why the weapon is being introduced / learned.
For example; I have had some students approach me and want to take private lessons and they stated they did not care at all about the practicality of the weapon or defense against it. They just loved the movement and the "art" of it.
In our grouip class curriculum, while the art is a part of it, it is also geared for actual defense, therefore I think it is important to understand the weapon. Both how it is used to attack and defend.
For safety sake, no, we don't use real guns! But there is discussion and training involving some of the real obstacles we would be facing in an actual confrontation and discussion about the various weapons. There are certainly a number of different makes of knives and guns which means this would have to be considered in reality based training.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Many of the worlds gretest martial artists and warriors were proficient in more than one type of weapon and certainly had an appreciation for function over form. I have some experience from time spent doing some basic training in the army and I appreciate the pros and cons of rifles and small arms. I train Koryu and I have an appreciation and some knowledge of differing weapon types and where they'll be used and at my dojo we're constantly analysing new ways that a weapon such as a knife or stick (or baseball bat or crowbar, the list goes on) can be used.
We live in a time where there is an increasing number of cowards on the streets mercilessly attacking those that they percieve to be weak. Thae fact is you can't see the future and you don't know whether someone is gonna attack you with a baseball bat or whether some loon has managed to get hold of a Nihonto Shinken (the latter is highly unlikely but recent laws were put in place because of reported incidents with 'wall hangers'). In such situations you need to have an appreciation and a deep insight into what is and is not acceptable for you to stand against. Am I gonn stand bare fisted against some moron swinging a baseball bat? Possibly, if I can't run away. Am I gonna stand the same against someone sporting folded steel? Almost definitely not. But in the instance that I would have to (how ever unlikely and outrageous that may be), I'd like to know how to minimise the damage to myself and anyone who may be around me at the time. I believe you need an appreciation even some degree of fear and respect for a weapon to achieve this.
The fact is knives, handguns and the like are openly available in a million varieties on our streets today. Because of this we as trained individuals need to appraise these different variations as quickly as possible to discern the safest action possible when confronted with an armed opponent.

 

[rmclain]

I think it would absolutely help on the defense side to learn about the tactics and offensive side of each weapon. While it will help against an untrained and trained attacker, I still wouldn't want to be on the defensive side against a specialist with the weapon.

R. McLain

 

[jks9199]

A basic understanding of the proper and effective use of the weapon, as well as the ways it is likely to be used against you, is essential to teach realistic self defense against the weapon. You don't have to be an expert marksman, you don't have to be a magician with a knife, or a sword wizard... but you do have to know the basics. Otherwise, people come up with silly defenses that are absolutely impractical if not outright dangerous to use. Many firearms defenses and knife defenses out there are great examples; they're built around scenarios that are unlikely at best (too close, silly positions, etc), or that only work on certain guns (you can't jam the web of your thumb between the hammer and frame of anything but a revolver with exposed hammer... so it's useless against most automatics. Not to mention it would hurt like hell!), or they rely on the "bad guy" to attack you in the "right way."

Many weapons can be used as an extension of the hand and many empty hand principles can be adapted to the weapons, but that doesn't mean it's the best, most effective, or most common way to use that weapon. To really prepare for self defense against a knife, you have to know how knives are REALLY used in an attack. I saw one video recently where the so-called expert believed that most people merely brandished a knife, with no intent to use it... Maybe it's unique to my area, but we don't get many "brandishings" of a knife unless they're paired with an attempted or actual assault...

 

[sgtmac_46]

If your interest is practical self-defense in unknown situations one should definitely have some knowledge of the most common firearms and how to identify various common rifle, shotgun and pistol caliber rounds on sight. With a little bit of training, one could pickup a dropped or found firearm anywhere on the planet and make it function in order to protect themselves.

Much of this initial training can be done in the (often free) hunter education training programs offered in many states. Initially the handgun part will be cursory, but one will have a basic understanding of firearms and their various actions, as well as basic safety training.

Then one should develop a thorough understanding of handguns. A familiarization with the most common types of hands guns, how to load and unload them, how to operate the safety where there is an external one. This can be accomplished in many of the civilian handgun courses being taught.

One should also be familiar with the shotgun. Many clubs shoot recreationally and are more than happy to welcome novice members of the public.

Finally, one should familiarize themselves with the most combat combat rifles of the world. AT MINIMUM this should include:

The AK-47 and it's variants, with over 100 MILLION circulating worldwide, the most prodigious assault rifle of all time and can be found anywhere around the world, including any American community.

The AR-15, because it's the 2nd most common assault rifle, and nearly as common in the western hemisphere as the AK-47, as well as being the basic template for the US infantry arm.

And the SKS, which uses the same 7.62x39mm round as the AK-47 but typically from a stripper fed magazine. Due to it's cheaper production cost AND high reliability, this is a commonly found rifle throughout the United States, and is probably more common than the AK-47.

In addition, for graduate study, one might want to examine the .308/7.62 nato battle rifles....

The FN-Fal, known as the 'Right arm of the Free World' for being the most successful and widely adopted Battle rifle in the world. Dozens
of countries adopted the FN as their standard infantry arm for decades. It served this role well, and can still be found in wide circulation around the world, including in the US.


The German G3/CETME....built by the Germans after Belgium refused to allow them to adopt the FN-Fal......the G3/CETME is nearly as prolific as the FN-Fal, and can be found all over the planet.

And finally the M-14....only adopted by the US as a battle rifle, and for a short time, less likely to be found worldwide but very popular in the US. A very accurate precision rifle.

Well, that should be a good start.

Now, where would one go to find the above? Make friends with the local gun nut! I own all but the G3/CETME myself, and i've found one of those i've been eyeballing for a little while.

Most gun guys once you get to know them are more than happy to take folks out to the range and expound on their favorite hobby and educate the lay person on the operation of various types of firearms. If you buy the ammunition, they'll let you shoot till your hearts content. THEN he'll show you how to break them down and CLEAN THEM!

 

[MA-Caver]

Would you drive a car and not understand how it works or what it was built for? (a lot of people do)
Then why wouldn't it be important to understand how each weapon works? Nearly all weapons have a principal behind them no matter how crude (from a busted length of 2X4 to a candlestick or a tree limb laying on the ground) to how intricate it may be. They are designed to be used in a certain way and while they may have had different non-violent origins like the nunchucku which was originally a rice flail but modified to be handled better... as a weapon.
If you're going to use a particular weapon better to understand it and why and how it's used in the way it's supposed to be used. This way you hurt your intended target(s) and not yourself or anyone else.

 

[thardey]

The type of weapon varies a great deal on how much you need to know about it to defend.

It also matters whether you choose to defend empty-handed (which I assume was the OP's intent) or whether you defend with a different weapon.

For empty hand defense:

Pistols: Having a very through, ingrained understanding of the Three Basic Rules can help keep you from getting shot.
The rules are:
1. Keep the gun unloaded until ready for use
2. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire
3. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

For those who are unfamiliar with these rules, they work like this: All three have to be broken at the same time in order for something bad to happen. We often break as many as two at a time without consequence. For instance, carrying a loaded gun in certain holsters breaks #1 and #3. However, the holster actively prevents #2 from occurring, so no bad things happen.

For defense, #3 is the most helpful: the gun will only shoot in the direction it's pointed, if you can control that, you can break the cycle. Most gun defenses are built around this principle. Often #2 is take into account, as well, in that you can trap and break the trigger finger on the guard.

#1 is marginally useful, in that knowledge of how the gun is loaded might be exploited, if you're lucky. Knowing that a revolver uses a hammer and a cylinder, and how they work together, might allow you to control the "loading" of the gun. In an automatic, knowing the function of the slide can be helpful in jamming the mechanical "loading" process.

But how many non-gun owners even know the difference between a single-, or double-action pistol? There are people who still believe that a gun (especially a revolver) has to be manually cocked before it can be fired! That's a useful bit of information.

As for knives, most people have owned one, and have cut meat at some point in their lives (unless you're a vegetarian.) So there's already a basic understanding of the fundamentals there. More than that really becomes an exercise in responding to specific "styles." Which is good, but it's hard to know what to focus on.

The biggest problem with lumping swords and clubs together is that the sword is swung in a wholly different way. It not only has the percussive (strike) element that a stick would, but it also had a slice (drawing) element. A proper cut for a sword would slide past an instinctive "hard block" and be in a position to thrust into the body instantly. Most "percussive" strikes don't have that.

Also, only the fastest moving portion of a club, bat, etc., is dangerous. If you can get "inside" the end of a club, you've got it beat. This is not so with a sword - the entire length is dangerous, even elements of the handle.

So you've got to be able to instinctively understand the "vulgar" aspects of a weapon before you can have much hope of defending against it. When you get into defending against specific "styles" though, you start running into the principle of diminishing returns.

 

[Deaf Smith]

It's a poor martal artist that does not take the effort to understand the very weapons they may have to fight against. And to understand the weapons, you need to have at least a basic understanding of HOW to use those weapons.

Deaf

 

[tellner]

So, it brought me to this question: How important do you feel it is to really understand the weapon, if you are teaching a defense against it? Now, some may feel that its not rocket science to use a knife, and while we may never faced a Filipino master on the street, there is more to it than what appears on the surface.

I think it's essential. You don't have to be an expert, but you need at least basic competence. If nothing else, whoever you work with needs a good realistic feed in order to practice his defense correctly. If you don't know how the weapon is actually used and you aren't comfortable enough with it to use it correctly you can't be a good training partner.

On a more basic level you need to be familiar with the weapons you are likely to face. If you aren't you will be even more scared and confused if you are attacked with them. I say "even more" because if your adrenaline and pucker reflexes aren't fully engaged in an armed attack you aren't taking it seriously enough. If you are familiar with them you will be in a better position to gauge how much danger you are in and what to do about it.

I'm no handgun expert, but I do know that there are different types of guns out there. Having some basic knowledge of how each gun functions may determine how we go about a defense.

Unless you are in the military, specialized law enforcement or lead a really interesting life the basics are...

Handguns

1. Revolver
2. Self-loading (aka semi-automatic)

Long Guns
1. Rifle

• Bolt Action Rifle
• Semi-Automatic Rifle
• Lever Action Rifle

2. Shotgun

• Break-open Shotgun
• Pump-action Shotgun
• Semi-automatic Shotgun

At the very least you should be familiar with how these work and have a little hands-on experience with them. Even if you never own one they are among the weapons you might end up on the wrong end of. It's good to be familiar so you don't panic and so you have an idea of what you are up against. Besides, as they say on the Box of Truth website "Shooting things is fun"

 

[KenpoTex]

I definately think it's important to have a basic understanding of the weapon's operation.

When I teach handgun disarms to new people, I bring in a semi-auto and revolver and use dummy rounds to demonstrate the function of the weapon and how those issues impact our disarming techniques.

While I also explain/demonstrate the difference between single and double-action revolvers, and touch on the different semi-auto designs (single-action, double-action, double-action only, striker-fired.) I don't spend too much time on this because I doubt you're really going to notice in the heat of the moment.

 

[chinto]

a basic understanding of weapons is a good thing.. and a complete one for any weapon you train to use. I an reasonably skilled with fire arms, and several martial arts weapons... I understand their function and use, also how they are made and disassembled and reassembled, and where applicable cleaned, and in all cases maintained, and used.

 

[MJS]

Well, I'm of two opinions on the matter. I understand what you're saying, that it's much easier to teach defense against a weapon you understand how to use... but at the same time, as an instructor, I have only so much time in which to teach. I have to pick and choose what I teach; if I teach too much at once, or hit things too rarely. In a perfect world, with endless time - I would definitely agree; your way is best. In the world we have, where time is at a premium - as an instructor, and even as a student, I have to pick and choose what I have time to do. It sucks that I have to make that kind of choice - but that's a choice each person has to make.

I understand about the time. However, this is something that could be taught over a period of time, not necessarily all in one shot. For example...just like with our empty hand techniques, we have ones for the beginning students all the way to advanced. If a bearhug is not introduced until the middle ranks, but a lower rank ends up in one, while they may not be able to do the textbook tech. at least they would have some principles to build from, and at a later time, a more in-depth study is covered.

Back to the weapons. The same thing could apply here. During one session on guns, a revolver is covered. It can be worked on again in other sessions. From that point, automatics can be covered. For the knife, during one session an icepick or overhead stab could be covered, with the explaination of what can/can't be done, etc.

 

[MJS]

My view is that it depends upon why the weapon is being introduced / learned.
For example; I have had some students approach me and want to take private lessons and they stated they did not care at all about the practicality of the weapon or defense against it. They just loved the movement and the "art" of it.

Great point.

In our grouip class curriculum, while the art is a part of it, it is also geared for actual defense, therefore I think it is important to understand the weapon. Both how it is used to attack and defend.
For safety sake, no, we don't use real guns! But there is discussion and training involving some of the real obstacles we would be facing in an actual confrontation and discussion about the various weapons. There are certainly a number of different makes of knives and guns which means this would have to be considered in reality based training.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting using a real gun in training. A replica or something that functions like a real gun would, but isn't a real gun (if there are such things out there) to give the student a basic idea.

As you also said, I think its great to understand how to use the weapon offensively as well.

 

[MJS]

A basic understanding of the proper and effective use of the weapon, as well as the ways it is likely to be used against you, is essential to teach realistic self defense against the weapon. You don't have to be an expert marksman, you don't have to be a magician with a knife, or a sword wizard... but you do have to know the basics. Otherwise, people come up with silly defenses that are absolutely impractical if not outright dangerous to use. Many firearms defenses and knife defenses out there are great examples; they're built around scenarios that are unlikely at best (too close, silly positions, etc), or that only work on certain guns (you can't jam the web of your thumb between the hammer and frame of anything but a revolver with exposed hammer... so it's useless against most automatics. Not to mention it would hurt like hell!), or they rely on the "bad guy" to attack you in the "right way."

Fantastic point, and this, IMHO, is what gives people a false understanding. Now that you mention this, I think back to those knife clips that I posted in another thread. The topic of a single attack, vs. a rapid thrusting of the knife repeatedly, came up.

Many weapons can be used as an extension of the hand and many empty hand principles can be adapted to the weapons, but that doesn't mean it's the best, most effective, or most common way to use that weapon. To really prepare for self defense against a knife, you have to know how knives are REALLY used in an attack. I saw one video recently where the so-called expert believed that most people merely brandished a knife, with no intent to use it... Maybe it's unique to my area, but we don't get many "brandishings" of a knife unless they're paired with an attempted or actual assault...

Great points. IMO, if someone pulls a weapon, while in some cases it may be used just for intimidation, I'd rather not take that chance. I think that using some of the other tools out there to replicate a knife are important too. Always relying on a wooden or rubber knife...well, I've seen many people do a disarm, and had it been a real blade, they literally would have been "disarmed." No lie blades and even the pricey shock-knife are tools that give more in the area of reality.

 

[MJS]

If your interest is practical self-defense in unknown situations one should definitely have some knowledge of the most common firearms and how to identify various common rifle, shotgun and pistol caliber rounds on sight. With a little bit of training, one could pickup a dropped or found firearm anywhere on the planet and make it function in order to protect themselves.

Much of this initial training can be done in the (often free) hunter education training programs offered in many states. Initially the handgun part will be cursory, but one will have a basic understanding of firearms and their various actions, as well as basic safety training.

Then one should develop a thorough understanding of handguns. A familiarization with the most common types of hands guns, how to load and unload them, how to operate the safety where there is an external one. This can be accomplished in many of the civilian handgun courses being taught.

One should also be familiar with the shotgun. Many clubs shoot recreationally and are more than happy to welcome novice members of the public.

Finally, one should familiarize themselves with the most combat combat rifles of the world. AT MINIMUM this should include:

The AK-47 and it's variants, with over 100 MILLION circulating worldwide, the most prodigious assault rifle of all time and can be found anywhere around the world, including any American community.

The AR-15, because it's the 2nd most common assault rifle, and nearly as common in the western hemisphere as the AK-47, as well as being the basic template for the US infantry arm.

And the SKS, which uses the same 7.62x39mm round as the AK-47 but typically from a stripper fed magazine. Due to it's cheaper production cost AND high reliability, this is a commonly found rifle throughout the United States, and is probably more common than the AK-47.

In addition, for graduate study, one might want to examine the .308/7.62 nato battle rifles....

The FN-Fal, known as the 'Right arm of the Free World' for being the most successful and widely adopted Battle rifle in the world. Dozens
of countries adopted the FN as their standard infantry arm for decades. It served this role well, and can still be found in wide circulation around the world, including in the US.


The German G3/CETME....built by the Germans after Belgium refused to allow them to adopt the FN-Fal......the G3/CETME is nearly as prolific as the FN-Fal, and can be found all over the planet.

And finally the M-14....only adopted by the US as a battle rifle, and for a short time, less likely to be found worldwide but very popular in the US. A very accurate precision rifle.

Well, that should be a good start.

Now, where would one go to find the above? Make friends with the local gun nut! I own all but the G3/CETME myself, and i've found one of those i've been eyeballing for a little while.

Most gun guys once you get to know them are more than happy to take folks out to the range and expound on their favorite hobby and educate the lay person on the operation of various types of firearms. If you buy the ammunition, they'll let you shoot till your hearts content. THEN he'll show you how to break them down and CLEAN THEM!

Great points all around! I've had some chats with some people I know that own guns. My head starts to spin. LOL!

 

[stickarts]

Great point.



Oh, I wasn't suggesting using a real gun in training. A replica or something that functions like a real gun would, but isn't a real gun (if there are such things out there) to give the student a basic idea.

As you also said, I think its great to understand how to use the weapon offensively as well.

Definately! We had a seminar awhile back and someone brought in metal guns. Just the extra weight of the gun made a difference in the technique. Now add all the various mechanisms and I could see where it can get more complicated.

 

[tellner]

Well, I'm of two opinions on the matter. I understand what you're saying, that it's much easier to teach defense against a weapon you understand how to use... but at the same time, as an instructor, I have only so much time in which to teach.

...

- but that's a choice each person has to make.

Kacey, you practice a martial art which is geared very, very strongly to the empty hand. You also have a huge curriculum to teach. It's all a question of how important weapons defense is in your martial art.

If it's important for students to have realistic defense skills, then a certain amount of facility with the weapon is non-negotiable if only so that students can give realistic attacks.

If it's at the level of a lot of forms work where you really just need to be able to perform set techniques with a little authority in good style, then it's probably not worth spending the time on.

 

[arnisador]

How important do you feel it is to really understand the weapon, if you are teaching a defense against it?

I think it's quite important, and I emphasize it, though I understand Kacey's point about there only being so much time. But a certain level of familiarity is essential. Many defenses assume attacks that just don't happen ("but it'd be nice if they did"). Real people use weapons in effective ways.

I've been training in the FMAs for quite some time now, and I'll admit, my eyes were opened and still are, at the things that can be done with a stick and blade. The various grips, what types of attacks can be done from each grip, counters to various disarm attempts. The list goes on and on.

But we have to be wary...there's a danger of what my instructor calls "black belt eyes" wherein you hear hoofbeats and assume it's zebras, not horses. I've worked with FMA experts who counter my strike, then I counter their counter, then they try to disarm me, then I try to counter their disarm...you want to have those attributes, but you also don't want to over-complicate things. I've seen people block a knife attack during practice then not counter because they knew it was possible the first strike was a set-up for a more involved and sophisticated technique that could trap them. Well...on the street that could be bad thinking.

So...yes, you must know the weapon, and it's important to have had some training in its use to understand it from that end, but you also don't want to fall in the habit of assuming everyone who attacks you is a blade master. Be prepared, but play the odds. As Mr. Hartman says, he knows every one of the six or so people in Buffalo who might be able to pull off a subtle tapi-tapi trap on him with a knife or stick...and if they attacked him he'd just offer to talk it out over a beer. Or as a state trooper said at one of the arnis camps in Buffalo, "All I've ever used in arresting someone over the several years I've been doing this is a #1 strike (forehand diagonal strike). I'm still waiting for a chance to use a #2 (backhand diagonal strike)." He said it was about the same for anyone trying to use a non-firearm weapon on him. He was glad he was over-trained, for unusual situations and because he believed it built attributes that made everything he did better, but he always emphasized that in actual situations, it's the basics.