Unaffiliated Promotion Governance

[HighKick]

That's the thing. My current training is coming from other martial arts. My training in TKD is coming from myself. However, most of my experience as a black belt has not been learning new things, but rather memorizing new orders of things.

For example, in the color belts we have 8 kick combinations that must be memorized for testing. In 1st degree, we have 7 new combinations. Of those new combinations, there's a total of 2 new kicks or concepts that we haven't done before.

• #9 is just #8 plus a kick from #6
• #10 is an actually new concept
• #11 is just #6 re-ordered
• #12 is just a combination of kicks from kick #6 and jump kick #1
• #13 actually has a new kick, but it's a variation of #8
• #14 is just a re-order of jump kick #4
• #15 is a combination of kicks from kick #1 and jump kick #6

The same thing happens for 2nd degree and 3rd degree. There's very little that's actually new in the curriculum. And even that which is new, I may not have done it as a formal part of the curriculum, but I've done it before in some drill or exercise. In fact, out of kicks #9-25, there was only one kick that actually taught me something when it came up in the curriculum, and that was kick #24.

But, you know, I proved at each level that I could memorize more.

Personally, I haven't really seen anything to suggest that there is much more material to learn past black belt. At least not in an official capacity from Kukkiwon. And the Masters I've trained under haven't given much guidance to the upper belts. In fact, at my old school, most of the time I'd be shown something once, and then my "training" was to teach the other 3rd degree black belts that stuff while my Master taught the 1st and 2nd degree black belts their requirements.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen at other schools. I'm not saying there isn't any more to learn. However, the way it's been handled in the schools I've been, there isn't.

You are touching on a Huge component that I would say 80% of people completely miss of never reach. There is just So much that comes with time and dogged repetition and the desire to find the subtle nuances that go Far beyond 'knowing all the kicks' or punches or forms or sparring drills, etc... It is just not a process that can be rushed.

I know, I know....

 

[skribs103]

You are touching on a Huge component that I would say 80% of people completely miss of never reach. There is just So much that comes with time and dogged repetition and the desire to find the subtle nuances that go Far beyond 'knowing all the kicks' or punches or forms or sparring drills, etc... It is just not a process that can be rushed.

I know, I know....

That's my point. My approach to the curriculum is entirely different. I don't believe in memorizing lists of this or prescribed numbers of that. I believe in learning the techniques themselves, variations of the techniques and when they are appropriate, and different options and concepts for chaining those techniques together.

In fact, I believe that having a memorized list of techniques hurts this growth, because it requires you to focus only on what's in the box, instead of giving you much room to explore what's outside of it. I think I learned more about roundhouse kicks in the past 2 years of doing Muay Thai and studying videos online than I did during the several years I was a black belt at this school. It's because I was focused on the how's and why's instead of just the what's at my old school.

 

[philwhite34]

Being in the same situation and posing a similar question a while ago I've adoped the position that if you are independent then you should do whatever you want (with a few stipulations). After a certain point you have the skill to learn on your own without being tied to dojo politics. You have already done several black belt tests. At a certain point most things become honorary anyways.

Remember it is your teaching method. Belts are just a progress marker in your system. Notice how I used the word "your". You own this so make it great. If you create the system then you can set the bar. You can change your ranking system. Just be honest about what the requirements for each rank are.

I'm now teaching my familiy with hopes to expand to our community. I have nearly 30 years of experince, competed in and judged god know how many tournaments, and spent a ridiculous amount of time teaching. Thats the liniage and history I represent. The belts are just a progress marker for "my school" and my rank is elevated because I have put in the time and effort. Being an experienced independent martial artist, I do not need additional validation.

And if you want to feel better go watch all of the bullshido videos on youtube. Validation and rank are sometimes overated.

Just my 2 cents. But then again the cent is being retired so I guess I have no sense (cents) anymore.

 

[Earl Weiss100]

Respectfully, this is a very, very bad idea. If you want to get input/opinion for trusted lower rank ADULT students, especially ones who have a lot of training but never chased a belt, that is okay, but a lower rank should Never promote a higher rank, in any kind of metric or dynamic. Hard stop.

I think many system founders who may have not been at a terminal rank were at some time elevated by lower rank. I know some quality groups who stayed together when their OG founder died and then had the most Seniors elevated to the new rank by a committee albeit informal of those junior to them.

 

[HighKick]

I think many system founders who may have not been at a terminal rank were at some time elevated by lower rank. I know some quality groups who stayed together when their OG founder died and then had the most Seniors elevated to the new rank by a committee albeit informal of those junior to them.

Yes Sir, I Fully agree with this scenario. It is fully vetted and has decades of proven work and knowledge via the lower ranks who were led by said founder. I feel it is still good to get buy-in from external sources if possible (think system officials), but not absolutely necessary.
The slippery slope is in overall accountability.

 

[skribs103]

And if you want to feel better go watch all of the bullshido videos on youtube. Validation and rank are sometimes overated.

We had a guy come into our gym a while ago. Very strange guy. Wore a white belt to muay thai class, refused to take it off when the coach asked him to. Apparently this was his third white belt and he was proud of it. Bragging about all the martial arts he's taken. They slap-bump, and then he jumps like 10 feet back and just starts punching and kicking in the air to show off his skills. Our coach then clobbered him.

Anyway, yesterday I was doing a chain of tornado kicks where the transition from one kick to the next carried me to the next bag. The Muay Thai coach tells me it reminds him of an instagram reel that guy had posted.

"Thanks coach, saying I remind you of him is a huge boost to my confidence," I said....sarcastically.

"No, no. He was trying to do what you did."

 

[HighKick]

Being in the same situation and posing a similar question a while ago I've adoped the position that if you are independent then you should do whatever you want (with a few stipulations). After a certain point you have the skill to learn on your own without being tied to dojo politics. You have already done several black belt tests. At a certain point most things become honorary anyways.

Remember it is your teaching method. Belts are just a progress marker in your system. Notice how I used the word "your". You own this so make it great. If you create the system then you can set the bar. You can change your ranking system. Just be honest about what the requirements for each rank are.

I'm now teaching my familiy with hopes to expand to our community. I have nearly 30 years of experince, competed in and judged god know how many tournaments, and spent a ridiculous amount of time teaching. Thats the liniage and history I represent. The belts are just a progress marker for "my school" and my rank is elevated because I have put in the time and effort. Being an experienced independent martial artist, I do not need additional validation.

And if you want to feel better go watch all of the bullshido videos on youtube. Validation and rank are sometimes overated.

Just my 2 cents. But then again the cent is being retired so I guess I have no sense (cents) anymore.

That is fair, in bounds, and fairly common.
A question: What if you were exposed to training that showed your training, teaching, or methods to be inferior? Not inferring that this is the case at all, but it is always my 'concern' when I hear people say " am an independent XXX Dan black belt and want to open my own school'. To me, it is always a matter of full transparency.

I 1000% know and believe that some of the best martial artist in the world hold no or low rankings.

But when I look at the product in a global sense, I get concerned not only at the optics but more at the end results. As long as casual instruction as you describe is framed the right way, it is all good. But in my experience, that is rarely the case. I cannot count the number of people who have came to our schools with previous but undocumented/un-certified experience. Many stuck around but very few actually merited any kind of jump in rank.
That said, I fully know it is Way too easy to play-to-play and get certification without really being vetted.

I came up through the ranks of KKW (and other styles) in the '80's when there were a Lot of 'lone wolf' instructors out there doing their own thing. The martial arts were really in a positive surge from TKD being in the Olympics, and Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Jackie Chan and others in the movies. It was really fanatical and people (including some instructors) believed a Lot of the fantasy ingested from the movies and poor training that integrated a lot of Crap. There is still chronic carry-over from this trend today.
In this context, I am fully onboard with the way KKW is moving in regard to high Dan ranking. But it is only a piece of the puzzle and is becoming less and less relevant with the huge surge from BJJ and MMA. Let's be honest, you cannot take ANY product worldwide and not change and ultimately consolidate the disparate parts. It is slowly but surely happening in the martial arts.

My apologies for the semi-rant and getting off topic a bit, but I hope this is food for thought and helps you create a clearer path forward.

 

[HighKick]

That's my point. My approach to the curriculum is entirely different. I don't believe in memorizing lists of this or prescribed numbers of that. I believe in learning the techniques themselves, variations of the techniques and when they are appropriate, and different options and concepts for chaining those techniques together.

In fact, I believe that having a memorized list of techniques hurts this growth, because it requires you to focus only on what's in the box, instead of giving you much room to explore what's outside of it. I think I learned more about roundhouse kicks in the past 2 years of doing Muay Thai and studying videos online than I did during the several years I was a black belt at this school. It's because I was focused on the how's and why's instead of just the what's at my old school.

Fully agree. It is the expanding of knowledge when someone takes their MA's education beyond one static bubble. Exactly what happens when a person graduates from a college/university and goes to work in 'X' field. That is when they really learn the 'how' of something. And have the opportunity to add to the whole (in some cases).
That said, this has Much less to do with the original 'static bubble' (original school) than the product the OS was teaching. It is my continued desire and intent to ever evolve as a school owner/instructor to keep up with the times This requires me to stay current, relevant, but most importantly, proven.

It is really, really hard to train a group of people and expect even one of them to get this concept from jump. They (we) need order in order to learn. We need structure, at least in the beginning. We need to learn one fixed group of material to have something to build on (think learning basic math). We need to learn how to do a very good basic rear leg roundhouse kick so that we at least have the opportunity to expand and learn the plethora of roundhouse variations. And remember, this learning the 'what'. We may Never translate to knowing the 'when' and 'why' to any of it.
Just because something has become easy for you doesn't mean it may Ever be easy for someone else. This is a Very hard concept for some teacher to grasp and learn to work around.

 

[skribs103]

A question: What if you were exposed to training that showed your training, teaching, or methods to be inferior? Not inferring that this is the case at all, but it is always my 'concern' when I hear people say " am an independent XXX Dan black belt and want to open my own school'. To me, it is always a matter of full transparency.

I 100% agree that this is a general problem with the martial arts community. However, I definitely don't think that's the case in my situation. I've been adapting my plans based on what I've been learning in BJJ and MT and the other arts I'm sampling.

And it's not 100% in the direction of BJJ either. There are some things about the way BJJ does things that I prefer the TKD approach. BJJ tends to throw you in the deep end right away. It's great for some people, but not others (including me). I really struggled to get anything my first year there. But there's a lot I have learned and will apply.

 

[philwhite34]

That is fair, in bounds, and fairly common.
A question: What if you were exposed to training that showed your training, teaching, or methods to be inferior? Not inferring that this is the case at all, but it is always my 'concern' when I hear people say " am an independent XXX Dan black belt and want to open my own school'. To me, it is always a matter of full transparency.

I agree. This can happen even if you are good at what you do though. You have to take negative outcomes as learning opportunities. You may never skill up to beat someone better than you but you should be able to be better than you were yesterday.

 

[philwhite34]

We had a guy come into our gym a while ago. Very strange guy. Wore a white belt to muay thai class, refused to take it off when the coach asked him to. Apparently this was his third white belt and he was proud of it. Bragging about all the martial arts he's taken. They slap-bump, and then he jumps like 10 feet back and just starts punching and kicking in the air to show off his skills. Our coach then clobbered him.

I would not have let someone who didn't follow the rules participate in class. I assume you have a code of conduct detailing what is allowed in class. Its just a safety risk when people choose to not listen.

 

[skribs103]

I would not have let someone who didn't follow the rules participate in class. I assume you have a code of conduct detailing what is allowed in class. Its just a safety risk when people choose to not listen.

That's why the coach partnered with him first.

 

[HighKick]

That's why the coach partnered with him first.

We have had odd-balls come in over the years similar to what you describe. IF I did let them workout, I can't remember but a few that lasted even through the first class.
There have been more than a few legit people who just come by just to train due to traveling or whatnot. But they are quite decent about it up front.

 

[MadMartigan94]

Previously, the question was how to do any promotions as a 3rd degree. Fortunately, that has been solved. I now have a certificate that says "4th degree" and a placard that says "Master", both of which were given to me by someone who is a 6th degree black belt. That legitimizes me as a 4th degree Master, which legitimizes me to promote people to black belt and at least 2nd degree without question. However, when I start my school, it's going to likely be either 2nd, 3rd, or 4th degree where my students will hit their ceiling, without some system in place to continue their progress and/or mine.

A couple thoughts from someone who has been in similar shoes to you, being a student in, then running an independent school:

My first impression is that you may be looking at your own rank as a fixed thing unless you set up a way to promote from within somehow.

Rather than focus on how your students in 10-15+ years will promote to where you are today (with the obvious exception of your parents), I think you would get better results on focusing on your own path.

You practice TKD with a KKW base, but want to stay independent from the KKW. I similarly, do the same base style as the ITF, but have never been affiliated with any of the ITF organizations. After years of being stuck at a low dan rank, I had the good fortune of meeting an 8th (now 9th) dan who practices the same style as I do, (and was also not part of any organization) and forming a relationship with him.

I approached with the attitude of wanting to learn what I may not yet know, and he agreed to work with me to build TKD... not because he was trying to build some empire or organization. This has resulted in opportunities to promote and built connections to other TKD schools in my area who are similar.

In the years since, we have built a network of schools in the area, who have agreed to support one another's events and gradings, with no money being involved. We just agree to help each other to build TKD. If an instructor of 1 school needs the assistance of a higher dan rank for a grading, they set it up (working out travel costs, test fees and grading requirements) directly between themselves.

(If you want more details on how we set up our network, please feel free to DM me).

My thought for you would be to seek out something similar: a high ranking practitioner, who teaches the KKW forms, but runs independently. Work out your own promotions with them, and you should easily stay ahead of your students. For the 1 or 2 exceptions before you get to 5th, this person could potentially take care of those gradings.

I know that finding this person may be easier said than done, but I'm sure there are a lot of schools in North America that operate alone, but still keep to the style they began with in the KKW. Obviously, this also would probably not work if you are set with creating and teaching your own patterns, rather than teaching the curriculum you learned, just independently.

I teach a base TKD curriculum for promotions, and then sprinkle in whatever else I want (BJJ etc) that does not form part of the grading syllabus.
Just a few thoughts on how I might approach your situation if it was me.

 

[skribs103]

@MadMartigan To clarify, I'm not using the Kukkiwon forms. (I don't want anyone to think we are a Kukkiwon school and expect to receive Kukkiwon rank from me, especially after what happened between me and my former Master, who is Kukkiwon, when I assumed that he was going to be promoting me through Kukkiwon).

I have developed my own set of forms. The style of the forms is slightly different from Kukkiwon, with longer stances, different footwork, and different chambers. This is the style of form that we did with the in-house forms at my previous schools (which were Kukkiwon-affiliated), but it is not Kukkiwon style.

 

[MadMartigan94]

@MadMartigan To clarify, I'm not using the Kukkiwon forms. (I don't want anyone to think we are a Kukkiwon school and expect to receive Kukkiwon rank from me, especially after what happened between me and my former Master, who is Kukkiwon, when I assumed that he was going to be promoting me through Kukkiwon).

I have developed my own set of forms. The style of the forms is slightly different from Kukkiwon, with longer stances, different footwork, and different chambers. This is the style of form that we did with the in-house forms at my previous schools (which were Kukkiwon-affiliated), but it is not Kukkiwon style.

Fair enough. Though, in 28 years of training and teaching thr ITF style forms, no one has ever once asked whether their rank would give them ITF certification. A student will only think that is an important thing if you teach them that it is important. The general population couldn't care less about affiliations.

I totally get using the forms you've developed after putting so much work into making them though.

 

[Earl Weiss100]

Fair enough. Though, in 28 years of training and teaching thr ITF style forms, no one has ever once asked whether their rank would give them ITF certification.

This may be true of the General Public but one reason no one may have asked is that those seeking to continue their ITF journey would not come to your school. Have had numerous ITF people from throughout the world come to my school if they re located. were traveling or at one of the nearby universities. Granted the numbers were small compared to the local population. Similarly I have been able to direct people with ITF rank to ITF schools when they traveled or re located.

 

[skribs103]

Fair enough. Though, in 28 years of training and teaching thr ITF style forms, no one has ever once asked whether their rank would give them ITF certification. A student will only think that is an important thing if you teach them that it is important. The general population couldn't care less about affiliations.

I totally get using the forms you've developed after putting so much work into making them though.

The development of these forms were in response to my experience during my 4th degree test. But yeah.

This may be true of the General Public but one reason no one may have asked is that those seeking to continue their ITF journey would not come to your school. Have had numerous ITF people from throughout the world come to my school if they re located. were traveling or at one of the nearby universities. Granted the numbers were small compared to the local population. Similarly I have been able to direct people with ITF rank to ITF schools when they traveled or re located.

I believe you're also probably a lot higher ranked than MadMartigan is (I could be mistaken, but I believe you are pretty high up there and he isn't as high up there), so that would make you a better destination than him for someone seeking to continue their progression. No offense to him, it's the same as if I were to open a KKW school and folks were to choose the other KKW school in the next town over because the owner is an 8th degree.

 

[MadMartigan94]

This may be true of the General Public but one reason no one may have asked is that those seeking to continue their ITF journey would not come to your school. Have had numerous ITF people from throughout the world come to my school if they re located. were traveling or at one of the nearby universities. Granted the numbers were small compared to the local population. Similarly I have been able to direct people with ITF rank to ITF schools when they traveled or re located.

True. If they are just here temporarily, and want whatever they do during that time to count for their original organization, then they may not reach out to me. I do have to special circumstance that the closest official ITF school is 3 hours away from me though.

Of course, if someone with ITF rank came here to our little town, I would 100% honor that rank without exception and welcome them to train here (even though we don't train Sine Wave). It would only matter if they then promoted further with me and their organization played territorial games and refused to recognize their time here (which I think would show more about how that organization acts than anything else).

The development of these forms were in response to my experience during my 4th degree test. But yeah.

I believe you're also probably a lot higher ranked than MadMartigan is (I could be mistaken, but I believe you are pretty high up there and he isn't as high up there), so that would make you a better destination than him for someone seeking to continue their progression. No offense to him, it's the same as if I were to open a KKW school and folks were to choose the other KKW school in the next town over because the owner is an 8th degree.

That is true. GM Weiss is much more experienced and higher ranked than I.

While the 9th dan who works with me attends most every grading, and comes out part time to work with students during certain classes, I (just recently promoted to 5th dan) am the school owner and in charge of the day to day.

In the end, I can't control how large organizations gatekeep promotions in order to keep control and have the money flowing up to benefit the few at the top. That they would deny rank from one of my students (despite their skills, my lineage and that my 4th and 5th dan certificates are signed by one of the last living TKD Pioneers) is not something I can worry about.

The few and far between (potential) transplant students will never matter to my school's financial bottom line. It would be great to have them, but not worth bowing to organizational pressure for those maybe 1 or 2 people every 5+ years.

If you can find an independent master who teaches similarly enough to your style, I still think that it could work for them to promote you when appropriate. Even if you don't then pass the KKW forms along to your students.

 

[skribs103]

If you can find an independent master who teaches similarly enough to your style, I still think that it could work for them to promote you when appropriate. Even if you don't then pass the KKW forms along to your students.

That's the goal, although recent experience has told me that's rather difficult to find.