TSD and TKD

[Bruce7]

Chances are that you were doing TSD, however not 100% as Pyung Ahn forms are used by Traditional TKD - Chung Do Kwan (according to that site) as well as TSD and Chun Kuk Do (plus alot of Japanese and Okinawan karate)... Best bet is take a look at your old certs or try to find your old instructor, his lineage (a club/association with him in it as part of their lineage), etc...

My GM history is hard to follow, I have read where he came to the US in 1957 TSD/MDK, yet he had karate on the windows, called it taekwondo in the school, the older students called it MDK. He was friends with the General from the Korean War so he join ITF, then when the general wanted relations with North Korea he quit the ITF. He was a signature for the US to join WTF pictures of that and was the head coach for the first American team to South Korea in the early 1970's.
From all the information I have gather, Jack Hwang was teaching TSD/MDK in the early 1970, and was just calling it Taekwondo
The forms I learn were Pyung Ahn and Plagwae, is the best proof I was taught TSD/MDK and not TKD/MDK.
He may have taught Taeguek and other TKD forms after I left, he also may have drop the MDK name after I left his school.
Jack Hwang has passed away. Now his school is called Jack Hwang's Martial Arts and they teach Taekwondo. No mention of MDK.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Chances are that you were doing TSD, however not 100% as Pyung Ahn forms are used by Traditional TKD - Chung Do Kwan (according to that site) as well as TSD and Chun Kuk Do (plus alot of Japanese and Okinawan karate)...

Those forms were used by pretty much all the Kwan, to some extent. But that was prior to the unification and implementation of the name TKD. Why? Because most of the founders had at least some of their training in Shotokan. After the development of the Palgwae forms, the Kwan that stayed with the KTA (the unification...) switched to those forms. And, eventually, the taegeuk forms, unless they split off prior to that time.
Basically, if you learned the Pyung Ahn forms AFTER the unification, you were studying TSD, since GM HWANG, Kee, was the only major Kwan to split off (and he only took about 1/3 of the MDK with him) to continue teaching TSD. As far I have ever found, the only system using those forms AFTER the implementation of the Palgwae forms is Tang Soo Do (later renamed Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan.
And given that his Master was MDK, I think there's absolutely zero doubt that he was training in TSD.

Best bet is take a look at your old certs or try to find your old instructor, his lineage (a club/association with him in it as part of their lineage), etc...

Old certs would be awesome (and awesome to see scans of...) but his instructor passed a few years ago.
Bruce7, on a side note, I do have a copy of a photo with my KJN (GM Wang H "Bobby" Kim) and your Master. If memory serves, if was taken in the 70's. If you'd like a copy, PM me and I'll send it to you.

 

[kitkatninja]

...Old certs would be awesome (and awesome to see scans of...) but his instructor passed a few years ago.
Bruce7, on a side note, I do have a copy of a photo with my KJN (GM Wang H "Bobby" Kim) and your Master. If memory serves, if was taken in the 70's. If you'd like a copy, PM me and I'll send it to you.

That's cool

 

[TSDTexan]

Another way to view your lineage, tkd vs tsd. TSD guys were given a dan bon number. (this was exclusive to the MDK, or it was exclusive to the Hwang Ke lineage of the MDK.

This was fought over in Korea, and after some court battles, the MDK/HWANG family retained ownership of the dan bon list. Other groups who had an incomplete danbon list were court order to cease and desist attempts to claim the dan bon list, and begin using their own lists/numbering system.
Even the KKW had to let go of their danbon copy and begin a new list.

So tkd guys almost never got a MDK dan bon.... except for those who earned their chodan prior to the unification and subsequent MDK split. (or in extremely rare cases they learned the mdk curriculum and tested out in the under the authority of tangsoo/subakdo side of MDK, but remained affiliated or under a TKD name/organization/association/hae.)

 

[Bruce7]

Another way to view your lineage, tkd vs tsd. TSD guys were given a dan bon number. (this was exclusive to the MDK, or it was exclusive to the Hwang Ke lineage of the MDK.

This was fought over in Korea, and after some court battles, the MDK/HWANG family retained ownership of the dan bon list. Other groups who had an incomplete danbon list were court order to cease and desist attempts to claim the dan bon list, and begin using their own lists/numbering system.
Even the KKW had to let go of their danbon copy and begin a new list.

So tkd guys almost never got a MDK dan bon.... except for those who earned their chodan prior to the unification and subsequent MDK split. (or in extremely rare cases they learned the mdk curriculum and tested out in the under the authority of tangsoo/subakdo side of MDK, but remained affiliated or under a TKD name/organization/association/hae.)

Is their a website that has the MDK dan bon list. GM Jack Hwang was a black belt when he came to America in 1957, so should be on the list.

 

[dvcochran]

Another way to view your lineage, tkd vs tsd. TSD guys were given a dan bon number. (this was exclusive to the MDK, or it was exclusive to the Hwang Ke lineage of the MDK.

This was fought over in Korea, and after some court battles, the MDK/HWANG family retained ownership of the dan bon list. Other groups who had an incomplete danbon list were court order to cease and desist attempts to claim the dan bon list, and begin using their own lists/numbering system.
Even the KKW had to let go of their danbon copy and begin a new list.

So tkd guys almost never got a MDK dan bon.... except for those who earned their chodan prior to the unification and subsequent MDK split. (or in extremely rare cases they learned the mdk curriculum and tested out in the under the authority of tangsoo/subakdo side of MDK, but remained affiliated or under a TKD name/organization/association/hae.)

I am in the latter boat. I have both MDK and Kukkiwon certification. We still use Pyung Ahn poomsae as our first forms set.

 

[TSDTexan]

Is their a website that has the MDK dan bon list. GM Jack Hwang was a black belt when he came to America in 1957, so should be on the list.

try this... it is incomplete.

Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Dan Bon | 기도권 무승 극제

 

[Bruce7]

try this... it is incomplete.

Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Dan Bon | 기도권 무승 극제

Thank you for trying. Given his age and coming to america in 1957, his number would have to be under a 100.

 

[TSDTexan]

Thank you for trying. Given his age and coming to america in 1957, his number would have to be under a 100.

Number 8 or number 11 could be him.

 

[dvcochran]

try this... it is incomplete.

Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Dan Bon | 기도권 무승 극제

To give me a reference point, #1 Kim, Un Chang has a date of 1948 beside the name. Is that the date he received his rank or is that a death date?

 

[TSDTexan]

To give me a reference point, #1 Kim, Un Chang has a date of 1948 beside the name. Is that the date he received his rank or is that a death date?

the date he earned the first MDK dan.

 

[Bruce7]

Number 8 or number 11 could be him.

I found more information from Jack Hwang: Taekwondo - USAdojo.com

I was right about TSD, but may have been wrong about his low dan number for MDK.
Jack Hwang studied Yun Moo Kwan before studying MDK.
I know he came to America in 1957.
I have read other articles that said he was a pioneer in American MDK.

Jack Hwang was born on July 3, 1931 and he began his study of the Korean martial arts in 1941. His uncle, Soun Gyu Hwang, was head of the Pusan Police Force, and he was a big influence over Jack’s love of the martial arts and spurred him on in his training, requiring constant and intensive practice. In 1945 Jack Hwang began to train at the Yun Moo Kwan School in Pusan. From 1950 through 1955, Hwang utilized his skills in the Army of the Republic of South Korea, where, through his distinguished service, he achieved the rank of Captain.
In 1957 Jack Hwang immigrated to the United States.

 

[TSDTexan]

I found more information from Jack Hwang: Taekwondo - USAdojo.com

I was right about TSD, but may have been wrong about his low dan number for MDK.
Jack Hwang studied Yun Moo Kwan before studying MDK.
I know he came to America in 1957.
I have read other articles that said he was a pioneer in American MDK.

Jack Hwang was born on July 3, 1931 and he began his study of the Korean martial arts in 1941. His uncle, Soun Gyu Hwang, was head of the Pusan Police Force, and he was a big influence over Jack’s love of the martial arts and spurred him on in his training, requiring constant and intensive practice. In 1945 Jack Hwang began to train at the Yun Moo Kwan School in Pusan. From 1950 through 1955, Hwang utilized his skills in the Army of the Republic of South Korea, where, through his distinguished service, he achieved the rank of Captain.
In 1957 Jack Hwang immigrated to the United States.

Yeah... no word back from the MDK on him. I think they may have just acknowledged his YMK chodan, rather having awarded it.

 

[Bruce7]

Yeah... no word back from the MDK on him. I think they may have just acknowledged his YMK chodan, rather having awarded it.

Thank you

 

[Steven Lee]

Tangsoo just means Tode, Okinawan Te. Japan, Korea, China pronounce Chinese characters in different dialects. It's just Tode or Tote, Okinawan Te.

Also, I don't know what Hwa Rang Do & Kuk Sool Won are, but Yudo is Judo, Kumdo is Kendo. Take those off Korean labels.

Korean has had sword and spear fightings, which were recorded in Muyedobotongji textbook (18ki and 24ki) 300 years ago. Gichang & Bongookgum are Korean weapon sports. http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2

"기창(旗槍). 단창이라고도 불렸으며 고려시대에 임금의 수레를 호위하는 군사들이 익혔던 무예이다."

"본국검(本國劍). 이덕무는 본국검을 신라의 화랑 황창이 창안한 검보라고 소개하였다."

As for barehand fighting sports, Korean has had Ssireum, Subak, Taekkyeon, Sibak (this street fighting sport includes punching and it's also in Taekkyeon), Gyeoksul (powerful North Korean martial art which started as Subak but upgraded to Sibak from Byungin Yoon's martial art experiences). Also, Korean has had power circus Charyuk/Kihapsul./Kiaijutsu which includes Breaking/Tameshiwari

 

[TSDTexan]

Tangsoo just means Tode, Okinawan Te. Japan, Korea, China pronounce Chinese characters in different dialects. It's just Tode or Tote, Okinawan Te.

Also, I don't know what Hwa Rang Do & Kuk Sool Won are, but Yudo is Judo, Kumdo is Kendo. Take those off Korean labels.

Korean has had sword and spear fightings, which were recorded in Muyedobotongji textbook (18ki and 24ki) 300 years ago. Gichang & Bongookgum are Korean weapon sports. http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2

"기창(旗槍). 단창이라고도 불렸으며 고려시대에 임금의 수레를 호위하는 군사들이 익혔던 무예이다."

"본국검(本國劍). 이덕무는 본국검을 신라의 화랑 황창이 창안한 검보라고 소개하였다."

As for barehand fighting sports, Korean has had Ssireum, Subak, Taekkyeon, Sibak (this street fighting sport includes punching and it's also in Taekkyeon), Gyeoksul (powerful North Korean martial art which started as Subak but upgraded to Sibak from Byungin Yoon's martial art experiences). Also, Korean has had power circus Charyuk/Kihapsul./Kiaijutsu which includes Breaking/Tameshiwari

Thanks for voicing your opinion. You seem kinna new. Stick around. You might like it.

 

[Bruce7]

Keep in mind, the history of Tang Soo Do is murky and still has a lot of loose ends, especially in the west.

The main reason is that Hwang Kee is the main source for info about the Moo Duk Kwan.
The other Kwans have mostly faded into obscurity.

I submit that Eric Madis and Alex Gillis have made the most headway into this historical research. However, so much more needs to be done. Alex Gillis is working hard to correct some issues in his first edition of "A Killing Art". Because I am a Moo Duk Kwan TSD stylist, I personally would have liked him to carefully make this distinguishment between TSD/KSD and TKD more clear. As he is TKD, he tends to use TKD more often.

Many people write TKD when in fact they mean TSD when discussing the martial history of korea post 1944 or so. I'm an advocate that they get it right and make sure that a school was actually using TSD, TKD, KSD etc. It's very important.

I also tried very hard not to rehash other history books. Scott Shaw's history of TKD is quite good, but don't believe for a minute that he's got absolutely all the facts right.

The problem is, there is an awful lot of guessing and speculation, or one sided anecdotes to what happened a long time ago, and not enough evidence. The kwans were fiercly competitive, like most martial arts groups usually are!

It's very good to know your Kwan history of your TKD school. For instance, I recently went on a business trip where a 40 year teaching veteran of simply "WTF TKD" had just had a huge grand opening. Beautiful dojang. I politely asked if I could train while I was visiting in either a white belt dobok or my dan uniform. Since my dan uniform is the classic MDK one with midnight blue trim, with no TKD affiliation what soever, I was surprised to hear a "yes, no problem - no fee" for the lesson.

It turns out he is a Chang Moo Kwan based TKD master, and it shows! Basically, his movements were identical to mine. He even did base form #1 (the "Gicho form" but he called it by a different name). Even his turns and blocks were identical to "MDK" orthodox style. But he wasn't MDK! a far cry from walking stances etc. It was classic Karate in appearance.

However, the ho sin sool he showed us incoroporated classing kung fu moves. Circular blocks, tiger mouth strike to throat, spin inside and finish with a judo take down and kill move. We did a variant where you do a classic Aikido style grab arm and throw the opponent across the matt. Also is a basic jiujitsu or judo throw.

Since Chang Moo kwan split off from the original YMCA Kwon Bop Bu of legend, his moves fit perfectly with his classic Chang Moo Kwan style. It is something I'll never forget. Kwan history matters!

Anyway, hopefully this points people in the right direction.

I have learn a lot from you, TSDTexan and my own resource,
the problem is the more I learn, the more confessed I get.

 

[Acronym]

Tang Soo Do is indeed the precursor to TaeKwonDo. This gets more complicated in modern times due to the establishment of the Kukkiwon and their rule-sets for the Olympics, but prior to that, there was no meaningful distinction between the two on a technical level. Only katas.

The one thing Tang Soo Do people refuses to this day is to adopt Taekwondo patterns.

 

[dvcochran]

Tang Soo Do is indeed the precursor to TaeKwonDo. This gets more complicated in modern times due to the establishment of the Kukkiwon and their rule-sets for the Olympics, but prior to that, there was no meaningful distinction between the two on a technical level. Only katas.

The one thing Tang Soo Do people refuses to this day is to adopt Taekwondo patterns.

And why should they? TSD is it's own entity even though there is overlap with traditional TKD.

 

[Acronym]

And why should they? TSD is it's own entity even though there is overlap with traditional TKD.

Not to be too melodramatic but they use Japanese and Chinese katas for a body mechanical Korean system, which I think is a betrayal. I don't view it as an own entity. If you put a TSD practioner outside of a Kata context, he is doing the same techniques as a Chang Hon practitioner, because TaeKwondo was a mere name change, alongside new Korean katas.

What happened is that some of the old masters were reluctant to adopt the new Chang Hon forms due to politics. If they weren't, there wouldn't have been any Tang Soo Do labelled schools left, because that is the main difference.

You may find that a TSD practitioner is better at X, but this is due to a difference of emphasis, not content.