Training Options, Spread It Out Or Concentrate It More?

[skribs]

I’ll go one further and say if you learned four kicks on your first day then you ought to find a new teacher because this one is an idiot.

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

 

[Flying Crane]

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

Four kicks on a student’s first day is too much and a teacher who would do that is probably not a good teacher. Start them one at a time and give even a little time to grasp what they are doing before adding another kick.

 

[skribs]

Four kicks on a student’s first day is too much and a teacher who would do that is probably not a good teacher. Start them one at a time and give even a little time to grasp what they are doing before adding another kick.

We teach 4 kicks on the first day at my school. And barely anyone has a problem with it. We have kids as young as 4 years old who are able to figure it out. They might not understand all of the details or do the kicks perfect, but over time they will learn it.

I could very easily go the other direction. I could very easily say that if you can't teach more than one kick, you don't know how to teach kicks, because it's very easy to teach more than one kick at a time. And if your teacher only teaches one kick on your first day, then you ought to find a new teacher, because your teacher is an idiot.

But I'm not going to say that, because I understand there are different training philosophies, and different methods can both work.

 

[Flying Crane]

We teach 4 kicks on the first day at my school. And barely anyone has a problem with it. We have kids as young as 4 years old who are able to figure it out. They might not understand all of the details or do the kicks perfect, but over time they will learn it.

I could very easily go the other direction. I could very easily say that if you can't teach more than one kick, you don't know how to teach kicks, because it's very easy to teach more than one kick at a time. And if your teacher only teaches one kick on your first day, then you ought to find a new teacher, because your teacher is an idiot.

But I'm not going to say that, because I understand there are different training philosophies, and different methods can both work.

Yup, there are different philosophies on how to do it. That is the truth

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

unless "winning" was just for the take-down. If it's anything like the wrestling I took, winning meant you had to pin the guy.

In Chinese wrestling, a throw end that round. A throw is defined by any 2 points of your body besides your feet that touch the ground.

 

[Danny T]

This is the problem for most people's training. It's very difficult to force yourself to concentrate on just 1 technique for a long period of time (such as 6 months, 1 year, or 2 years). But when you realize that this may be the only chance in your life time that you can develop a solid "door guarding" technique, you should be happy to put that restriction on yourself.

For the 3rd person's single leg example, in the entire 6 months, his teacher only allows him to use single leg on the mat. If he uses any technique other than single leg, the winning won't be counted and the match will continue. 6 months later, the teacher asks him to use single leg to set up leg spring, foot sweep, inner hook, downward pull, leg lift, ... The combo sequence training then start from there.

This is the traditional "tree build" method. You first develop a strong main trunk for your tree. That tree then branches out and form a big tree. In your life time, you may develop many trees like this.

So they actually were doing other things but spending more time on something specific.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you have sources for those facts? Because right now it sounds like myths.

I do have the sources. But to protect the privacy, I prefer not to mention their names here. It all happened about 40 years ago.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So they actually were doing other things but spending more time on something specific.

I have used the method on my students.

- A can only use "single leg".
- B can use any technique as he wishes.
- If A takes B down by any technique other then "single leg", that winning doesn't count and the round continue.
- If B takes A down by any technique, that round is over.

Test for 15 rounds and record the result. Keep doing this for a period of time.

Whether A spends time to train something else by himself will not be my concern. I only care about the mat testing result.

Of course for different MA system, that "single leg" can be replaced by "side kick", "hook punch", or ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yup, there are different philosophies on how to do it. That is the truth

You can teach

- breadth first, or
- depth first.

If you teach depth first. how to create opportunity to set up a single kick may take you more than 1 class time.

If you don't want your students to learn, you can teach them 10 (or more) techniques every class and never review for them.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Just to elaborate on Kung Fu Wang's training tree - post #11 (nice artwork), less we get too caught up in a simplistic view of a single kick (or other move.) Knowing how to DO a move does not mean knowing how to USE a move. How do you set up/enter to have the best chance of landing it, how to get in range, how to adapt if the situation changes midway, how to recover if you miss, if it gets blocked where will you be open for counter attack, how can you follow up if it lands? Many of these considerations will overlap and benefit some other techniques as an added bonus, but will be specific to some degree to the move being practiced.

Aside from practicing the physical execution of the technique 1000 times, how much time to practice the above in conjunction with it? With this in mind, working on just one move becomes much more complex (and interesting.)

 

[skribs]

I do have the sources. But to protect the privacy, I prefer not to mention their names here. It all happened about 40 years ago.

So it remains a myth to everyone else.

I have used the method on my students.

- A can only use "single leg".
- B can use any technique as he wishes.
- If A takes B down by any technique other then "single leg", that winning doesn't count and the round continue.
- If B takes A down by any technique, that round is over.

Test for 15 rounds and record the result. Keep doing this for a period of time.

Whether A spends time to train something else by himself will not be my concern. I only care about the mat testing result.

Of course for different MA system, that "single leg" can be replaced by "side kick", "hook punch", or ...

There's a difference between doing this for a class, and doing this exclusively for your training. It's good to focus on things. It's not good to get tunnel vision and focus on them at the exclusion of everything else.

The stories you quoted, assuming they happen as you described, I'm sure are extreme examples. The number of people who won championships by training more than one technique have to outnumber the people who trained a single technique by such a large factor I couldn't even begin to guess it. It's not a style of training I'd recommend to anyone.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So it remains a myth to everyone else.

Ah, so you require evidence now? Can't take it on the word of another poster that he's telling the truth?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's not a style of training I'd recommend to anyone.

It's one method that you can "force" someone to train a certain technique.

Here is an example of "rhino guard" testing. A round will stop if

- A can use rhino guard to obtain a head lock, or
- B can land a punch on A's head.

 

[skribs]

Ah, so you require evidence now? Can't take it on the word of another poster that he's telling the truth?

If a lot of other people chime in and support the theory, I'll defer to their knowledge and experience. But he's making statements about championship winners (which are usually publicized) and is now being cagey about their privacy. The conversations you're referring to are different because:

1. It's usually one person demanding proof of what everyone else is saying
2. When he does get proof he has excuses to shoot it down (which then when he puts evidence for his theories, it doesn't meet the standard he holds others to)

He's also telling us he has the same attitude towards his students. When they can't make something work, it doesn't sound like he helps them figure it out. Just says "train more". It's a great way of avoiding the question without having to put any work into answering it.

If someone posted the question "is my school legit?" and described their instructor the way @Kung Fu Wang described himself and his teaching style, I'd tell them there are numerous red flags for me.

It's one method that you can "force" someone to train a certain technique.

Here is an example of "rhino guard" testing. A round will stop if

- A can use rhino guard to obtain a head lock, or
- B can land a punch on A's head.

Let me clarify. It's good to focus on things for a class or a week. It's bad to focus on only one thing at the exclusion of all others for a significant period of time. This is how you become a one-trick pony.

The only reason I would do that is if:

• Your skills in the targeted area were severely lacking compared to your other skills and you needed a lot of work to catch up
• Your strategy for an upcoming fight relies solely on that one technique, because the fighter you're going to fight has shown a weakness to it

I do the same thing. For a class or two, and not at the exclusion of my other practice. When I spar, I may focus on one type of kick, or one type of footwork, or one specific strategy. But if I don't maintain my other skills, they will suffer. When my Master points out a problem in my technique, I focus on that problem for a while. It's good to focus on problem areas. It's not good to get tunnel vision and do so at the exclusion of everything else.

You are correct in the method you are using to test the technique and to train it. If that's all you did for several months, I'd say you wasted a lot of time while your other skills deteriorated.

It would be like a weightlifter focusing on biceps for a year; nothing but bicep curls. That means no triceps, no chest, back, core, legs. All of his other muscles would deteriorate, but he would have some nice biceps. It wouldn't be a very good bodybuilding or strength building plan.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If a lot of other people chime in and support the theory, I'll defer to their knowledge and experience. But he's making statements about championship winners (which are usually publicized) and is now being cagey about their privacy. The conversations you're referring to are different because:

1. It's usually one person demanding proof of what everyone else is saying
2. When he does get proof he has excuses to shoot it down (which then when he puts evidence for his theories, it doesn't meet the standard he holds others to)

He's also telling us he has the same attitude towards his students. When they can't make something work, it doesn't sound like he helps them figure it out. Just says "train more". It's a great way of avoiding the question without having to put any work into answering it.

If someone posted the question "is my school legit?" and described their instructor the way @Kung Fu Wang described himself and his teaching style, I'd tell them there are numerous red flags for me.

Just an FYI, my comment was meant as a joke/tongue in cheek. I agree with you on all of the above. With the exception of saying 'train more'. Most of the time that's not the answer, but it can be. I mentioned recently (I think on this thread) about me spending a month just on spinning hook kicks. If I asked my instructor, the issue wasn't me not knowing what to do, and he couldn't give me any new insights to make my spinning hook kicks better/faster/stronger besides holding the pads for me. The answer was really just train more.

Similarly, if I want to improve my grip strength, the first time I ask I'd expect to get a lot of advice. After that, assuming I'm not asking for clarification of some of that advice or an issue that I'm having, the answer would be "train more". Just like how the answer to improve my pec strength would be do pushups, and after that, "train more".

Let me clarify. It's good to focus on things for a class or a week. It's bad to focus on only one thing at the exclusion of all others for a significant period of time. This is how you become a one-trick pony.

The only reason I would do that is if:

• Your skills in the targeted area were severely lacking compared to your other skills and you needed a lot of work to catch up
• Your strategy for an upcoming fight relies solely on that one technique, because the fighter you're going to fight has shown a weakness to it

I do the same thing. For a class or two, and not at the exclusion of my other practice. When I spar, I may focus on one type of kick, or one type of footwork, or one specific strategy. But if I don't maintain my other skills, they will suffer. When my Master points out a problem in my technique, I focus on that problem for a while. It's good to focus on problem areas. It's not good to get tunnel vision and do so at the exclusion of everything else.

You are correct in the method you are using to test the technique and to train it. If that's all you did for several months, I'd say you wasted a lot of time while your other skills deteriorated.

It would be like a weightlifter focusing on biceps for a year; nothing but bicep curls. That means no triceps, no chest, back, core, legs. All of his other muscles would deteriorate, but he would have some nice biceps. It wouldn't be a very good bodybuilding or strength building plan.

I think this depends partially on your students. And also length of time. I could see an argument being made that, if you train out of the dojo more than you train in it (IE: 4 hours a week at the dojo, but 11 more at home), that you should have one-two techniques you can become really good at and spend most of your time at the dojo just training that. So you become a complete bomb with those. But that's still assuming you're keeping everything else up outside the dojo with training.

And even then, I wouldn't actually agree with that argument. But I think it could hold validity.

 

[skribs]

I think this depends partially on your students. And also length of time. I could see an argument being made that, if you train out of the dojo more than you train in it (IE: 4 hours a week at the dojo, but 11 more at home), that you should have one-two techniques you can become really good at and spend most of your time at the dojo just training that. So you become a complete bomb with those. But that's still assuming you're keeping everything else up outside the dojo with training.

And even then, I wouldn't actually agree with that argument. But I think it could hold validity.

If that's true, then I guess I could see that working. But the way the story was worded, that person would be training that one technique 15 hours a week - 4 at the dojo, and 11 at home. That's how I read that they trained nothing else for that period of time.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If that's true, then I guess I could see that working. But the way the story was worded, that person would be training that one technique 15 hours a week - 4 at the dojo, and 11 at home. That's how I read that they trained nothing else for that period of time.

He mentioned that that's only for mat training time. It's tough to interpret what he means sometimes though.. @Kung Fu Wang , any insights about what you meant? Should they be spending a year only working on the one technique, at the dojo and at home? Or is that just their sole priority at the dojo?

 

[dvcochran]

I think what @Danny T is getting at is that it's a balance, and that's what I tried to suggest, too. If you do:

• Day 1 - 100 front kicks, Day 2- 100 roundhouse kicks, Day 3 - 100 side kicks, Day 4 - 100 back kicks, Day 5 - 100 front kicks, continue ad nauseam. Then what will happen is it takes 4 kicks to get back to the one you were working on.
• Day 1 - 100 front kicks, Day 2 - 100 front kicks, repeat to infinity. Then all you will know is a front kick.
• Day 1 - 25 front kicks, 25 roundhouse kicks, 25 side kicks, 25 back kicks; Day 2 - 25 of each; repeat to infinity. Then you will never dig deep into any kick.

But on the other hand, if you do:

• Day 1 - 70 front kicks, 10 roundhouse kicks, 10 side kicks, 10 back kicks; Day 2 - 10 front kicks, 70 roundhouse kicks, 10 side kicks, 10 back kicks; continue the pattern. Then you will dig deep into each kick, but also maintain the others. Day 2, Day 3, and Day 4 you still do your front kicks, and over the 4 days you still do 100 front kicks. But this way you're not going 4 days between front kicks, and on Days 2, 3, and 4, you'll remember the lessons you learned about the front kick on Day 1.
• Day 1 - 100 front kicks, Day 2 - 25 of each, Day 3 - 100 roundhouse kicks, Day 4 - 25 of each, continue the pattern. In this case, you're only going a day between front kicks. You're really digging deep on odd days, and you're giving every kick equal focus on even days.

Going back to Bruce Lee's quote, I'd personally add a third segment to it. "Fear more the man who has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times, than the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks one time. But fear even more the man who has practiced 10 kicks 1,000 times."

On the other hand, if you have a specific use for one specific kick, and you don't feel the other kicks would fit your fighting style, then by all means - focus on that kick. If you want to be a pugilist and only use the roundhouse kick for leg kicks, or only use the front kick as a push kick, then by all means - focus on the one you plan to use. If you want to use both of those, and don't see much use in your game plan for the side kick or back kick, then just do front kicks on odd days and roundhouse kicks on even days. The further you spread out your practice, the harder it's going to be to maintain each kick.

There is a value in both methodologies.
There are Very, very few Bill Wallace capable kickers who can hang their hat on one primary kick and Always have it work on call. That guy will be more in the 100,000 kick range and kicking butt even when everyone knows what he is going to do.
There is more to that than just the exceptional kick.

 

[dvcochran]

I’ll go one further and say if you learned four kicks on your first day then you ought to find a new teacher because this one is an idiot.

Can you expand on this thinking? I do not follow.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. The drill I like to rep is round kick, front kick, front kick round kick other leg.

And the reason I like this is because it is confusing and forces me to constantly adjust to hit the target and keep balance.

Otherwise honestly stuffed if I know if a hundred kicks a day is better than say 5 times 25.


Mabye more kicks you are bad at or more kicks you would use more frequently?