Training Options, Spread It Out Or Concentrate It More?

[PhotonGuy]

Lets take four basic kicks, the front kick, side kick, round kick, and back kick. Now here are your training options for a session, you can do each of those four kicks twenty five times each for a total of 100 or you can pick one of those four kicks and do just that one kick one hundred times for a total of 100.

In each of those two options you're doing a total of 100 kicks, the difference being that in the first option you're spreading it out among the four kicks in the second option you're concentrating all of your training on just one kick, so what option would you choose?

For somebody who is just starting out in the martial arts 100 kicks might be a bit much for a single workout. Likewise for more advanced and seasoned martial arts practitioners you might do more than 100 kicks in a single workout but for sake of discussion Im leaving it at 100 kicks, feel free to adjust the number based on what you would do in a workout but the point is, would you spread your training out among four kicks or would you concentrate it on just one?

In this example Im using kicks, obviously this same principle can also apply to hand strikes or other martial arts techniques.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It depends on what my purpose is, and how easily I get bored. If I'm doing a general workout, then I'll switch up between different kicks. If there's something wrong with my kick that I'm trying to work on, or for whatever reason I have a specific goal for that workout, then I'll stick with just the one kick. I spent close to about 10 hours in one month working just on a spinning hook kick a while back. Most of my sessions that weren't in a class (either private instruction or by myself) were spent doing that, so there wasn't any spreading out. After I finished that though, on my kicking days I'd switch between kicks just to keep myself entertained, and not spend any more time on a spinning hook kick then any of my other kicks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you want to be a fighter, to repeat 1 kick 100 times is better than to repeat 4 kicks 100 times.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If you want to be a fighter, to repeat 1 kick 100 times is better than to repeat 4 kicks 100 times.

I believe what you meant to say is, to repeat 1 kick 100 times is better than to repeat 4 kicks 25 times.

 

[skribs]

One kick 60 times, the other kicks 10 times each. That way you maintain them all, but focus extra on one of them.

 

[skribs]

If you want to be a fighter, to repeat 1 kick 100 times is better than to repeat 4 kicks 100 times.

Taking @PhotonGuy 's correction into mind...

This seems like too big a stretch of the mantra. If you want to be a fighter, you need a rounded skillset. If you only ever practice one technique, then you will have only that one technique, and it will only work if your opponent leaves themselves open to that one technique. After seeing you use it, they'll adjust and defend against it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Taking @PhotonGuy 's correction into mind...

This seems like too big a stretch of the mantra. If you want to be a fighter, you need a rounded skillset. If you only ever practice one technique, then you will have only that one technique, and it will only work if your opponent leaves themselves open to that one technique. After seeing you use it, they'll adjust and defend against it.

Well to quote Bruce Lee, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

 

[skribs]

Well to quote Bruce Lee, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

And yet, Bruce Lee knew more than 1 kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you want to be a fighter, you need a rounded skillset.

If you are talking about MMA, I will agree with you. When MMA was not available, I know at least 3 facts to support my point.

1. One guy spent 1 year in punching a coconut with ropes tie on to 2 trees. A year later he won the 1st place in Taiwan Sanda tournament.
2. One guy spent 2 years in hip throw. 2 years later he won the 1st place in Taiwan Judo tournament.
3. One guy spent 6 months in single leg. 6 months later he took down 7 guys in a role in Chicago Chinese wrestling tournament by his single leg along. Later on, he won 3 years in a role the 1st place heavy weight title in US Chinese wrestling tournament.

 

[Danny T]

Lets take four basic kicks, the front kick, side kick, round kick, and back kick. Now here are your training options for a session, you can do each of those four kicks twenty five times each for a total of 100 or you can pick one of those four kicks and do just that one kick one hundred times for a total of 100.

In each of those two options you're doing a total of 100 kicks, the difference being that in the first option you're spreading it out among the four kicks in the second option you're concentrating all of your training on just one kick, so what option would you choose?

For somebody who is just starting out in the martial arts 100 kicks might be a bit much for a single workout. Likewise for more advanced and seasoned martial arts practitioners you might do more than 100 kicks in a single workout but for sake of discussion Im leaving it at 100 kicks, feel free to adjust the number based on what you would do in a workout but the point is, would you spread your training out among four kicks or would you concentrate it on just one?

In this example Im using kicks, obviously this same principle can also apply to hand strikes or other martial arts techniques.

One Session do the 1 kick a 100 kicks.
Subsequent sessions do the other kicks. Repeat as needed.

If you are talking about MMA, I will agree with you. When MMA was not available, I know at least 3 facts to prove my point.

1. One guy spent 1 year in punching a coconut with ropes tie on to 2 trees. A year later he won the 1st place in Taiwan Sanda tournament.
2. One guy spent 2 years in hip throw. 2 years later he won the 1st place in Taiwan Judo tournament.
3. One guy spent 6 months in single leg. 6 months later he took down 7 guys in a role in Chicago Chinese wrestling tournament by his single leg along. Later on, he won 3 years in a role the 1st place heavy weight title in US Chinese wrestling tournament.

And your point?
Are you saying the above persons trained only the punching a coconut or 2 years only training a hip throw or 6 months only training a single leg takedown? I doubt this. They may have concentrated their training on those particular things but seriously doubt that is the only thing that was trained by each.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And your point?
Are you saying the above persons trained only the punching a coconut or 2 years only training a hip throw or 6 months only training a single leg takedown? I doubt this. They may have concentrated their training on those particular things but seriously doubt that is the only thing that was trained by each.

This is the problem for most people's training. It's very difficult to force yourself to concentrate on just 1 technique for a long period of time (such as 6 months, 1 year, or 2 years). But when you realize that this may be the only chance in your life time that you can develop a solid "door guarding" technique, you should be happy to put that restriction on yourself.

For the 3rd person's single leg example, in the entire 6 months, his teacher only allows him to use single leg on the mat. If he uses any technique other than single leg, the winning won't be counted and the match will continue. 6 months later, the teacher asks him to use single leg to set up leg spring, foot sweep, inner hook, downward pull, leg lift, ... The combo sequence training then start from there.

This is the traditional "tree build" method. You first develop a strong main trunk for your tree. That tree then branches out and form a big tree. In your life time, you may develop many trees like this.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it will only work if your opponent leaves themselves open to that one technique. After seeing you use it, they'll adjust and defend against it.

The hardest part of this training method is during that period of time, since your opponent knows that you will only use 1 technique, he will try very hard not to give you that opportunity. You then need to try very hard to create an opportunity to make your single technique work. That can be a very challenge task. The nice thing about this training is, after you have gone through this training, you will know very well how to create opportunity for what you are trying to do.

In wrestling, the moment that you start to drag your opponent around, the moment that all different kind of opportunity will be open to you. In wrestling, there are many "door opening" moves like this. The circular dragging is one of those methods.

So even if your opponent won't give you that opportunity, you have to create that opportunity yourself.

 

[PhotonGuy]

And yet, Bruce Lee knew more than 1 kick.

Obviously. And any seasoned martial arts practitioner, or even a beginning practitioner, will know more than one kick. I learned three different kicks on my first day. In this thread Im not talking about how many kicks you know, Im talking about how many kicks you train with.

 

[PhotonGuy]

One Session do the 1 kick a 100 kicks.
Subsequent sessions do the other kicks. Repeat as needed.

But lets say on day one you pick a certain kick to do 100 times, the front kick for instance. So on day one you do 100 front kicks with your right leg. Then on day two you do 100 sidekicks, on day three you do 100 round kicks and on day four you do 100 back kicks, that is a total of 400 kicks you did in four days of training, 100 kicks each for the four different kicks. Now, lets say instead of doing all four kicks on those four days you only did the right legged front kick, that way you will have done a total of 400 kicks all of which are right legged front kicks without doing any of the other kicks. Your right legged front kick will be that much more developed than if you were to have only done it 100 times over your four training days. What Im getting at is, beware the man who trains with only one kick, he's probably really really good with it.

That is not saying that it would be a bad idea to eventually add a second kick into your training routine. In this example Im using 100 kicks as the number of kicks you're doing but that is just a starting number. As you get more seasoned and more in shape you can do more kicks per workout. Lets say you start out with 100 front kicks per workout, you keep doing that and eventually you build your fitness and endurance up to a level where you can do more kicks. So now, in your workouts you start with doing 100 right legged front kicks and then you do 100 left legged round kicks. That is a total of 200 kicks, 100 which are front kicks and 100 which are round kicks. You're still doing the same number of right legged front kicks per workout but now you're adding in left legged round kicks as your second kick.

You can look at it this way, you started out your training sessions where you devoted 100% to the front kick, now you're devoting 50% to front kicks and 50% to round kicks but you're still developing the front kick as when you were doing it for 100% of your workout, even though now you're only doing it for 50% of your workout because you have increased your workout, you have increased your number of kicks.

 

[skribs]

Obviously. And any seasoned martial arts practitioner, or even a beginning practitioner, will know more than one kick. I learned three different kicks on my first day. In this thread Im not talking about how many kicks you know, Im talking about how many kicks you train with.

If you learn 4 kicks on your first day, and only ever practice one of them, then you only know one kick.

 

[skribs]

If you are talking about MMA, I will agree with you. When MMA was not available, I know at least 3 facts to support my point.

1. One guy spent 1 year in punching a coconut with ropes tie on to 2 trees. A year later he won the 1st place in Taiwan Sanda tournament.
2. One guy spent 2 years in hip throw. 2 years later he won the 1st place in Taiwan Judo tournament.
3. One guy spent 6 months in single leg. 6 months later he took down 7 guys in a role in Chicago Chinese wrestling tournament by his single leg along. Later on, he won 3 years in a role the 1st place heavy weight title in US Chinese wrestling tournament.

Do you have sources for those facts? Because right now it sounds like myths.

It sounds like: 1 year of specific training, 1 year after that training is over, they had the competition. Meaning there was a lot of other training in between.

I'm also going to assume that they had prior training they could lean on. And I find it very hard to believe that they just practiced that one thing for that amount of time. That may have been the focus of their training, but there had to be more to it than that. For example...

This is the problem for most people's training. It's very difficult to force yourself to concentrate on just 1 technique for a long period of time (such as 6 months, 1 year, or 2 years). But when you realize that this may be the only chance in your life time that you can develop a solid "door guarding" technique, you should be happy to put that restriction on yourself.

For the 3rd person's single leg example, in the entire 6 months, his teacher only allows him to use single leg on the mat. If he uses any technique other than single leg, the winning won't be counted and the match will continue. 6 months later, the teacher asks him to use single leg to set up leg spring, foot sweep, inner hook, downward pull, leg lift, ... The combo sequence training then start from there.

Sounds like he was doing more than a single leg, unless "winning" was just for the take-down. If it's anything like the wrestling I took, winning meant you had to pin the guy.

 

[dvcochran]

For balance and sanctity of mind, spread it out. ALWAYS do both sides (left/right) and do a minimum of 20-25 per leg/side, per kick/technique. Any level of resistance (bag) is preferable to save the joints. Full power air kicks take much more technical skill than most people think to avoid cumulative injury. If you want to do sets of 4, you could do the same set for a week then switch it up. If you have a mirror, change up the intent. Do half the kicks slow to develop balance and correct technique, then pick up the pace for the last half. These are great, great sets to work on by yourself, assuming you already 'know' what correct technique is.
Martial Arts are a function over time. As long as you practice regularly/correctly, you will get enough repetition. Mentally, doing 400 of the same kick consecutively would be braining numbing for me.

 

[skribs]

But lets say on day one you pick a certain kick to do 100 times, the front kick for instance. So on day one you do 100 front kicks with your right leg. Then on day two you do 100 sidekicks, on day three you do 100 round kicks and on day four you do 100 back kicks, that is a total of 400 kicks you did in four days of training, 100 kicks each for the four different kicks. Now, lets say instead of doing all four kicks on those four days you only did the right legged front kick, that way you will have done a total of 400 kicks all of which are right legged front kicks without doing any of the other kicks. Your right legged front kick will be that much more developed than if you were to have only done it 100 times over your four training days. What Im getting at is, beware the man who trains with only one kick, he's probably really really good with it.

That is not saying that it would be a bad idea to eventually add a second kick into your training routine. In this example Im using 100 kicks as the number of kicks you're doing but that is just a starting number. As you get more seasoned and more in shape you can do more kicks per workout. Lets say you start out with 100 front kicks per workout, you keep doing that and eventually you build your fitness and endurance up to a level where you can do more kicks. So now, in your workouts you start with doing 100 right legged front kicks and then you do 100 left legged round kicks. That is a total of 200 kicks, 100 which are front kicks and 100 which are round kicks. You're still doing the same number of right legged front kicks per workout but now you're adding in left legged round kicks as your second kick.

You can look at it this way, you started out your training sessions where you devoted 100% to the front kick, now you're devoting 50% to front kicks and 50% to round kicks but you're still developing the front kick as when you were doing it for 100% of your workout, even though now you're only doing it for 50% of your workout because you have increased your workout, you have increased your number of kicks.

I think what @Danny T is getting at is that it's a balance, and that's what I tried to suggest, too. If you do:

• Day 1 - 100 front kicks, Day 2- 100 roundhouse kicks, Day 3 - 100 side kicks, Day 4 - 100 back kicks, Day 5 - 100 front kicks, continue ad nauseam. Then what will happen is it takes 4 kicks to get back to the one you were working on.
• Day 1 - 100 front kicks, Day 2 - 100 front kicks, repeat to infinity. Then all you will know is a front kick.
• Day 1 - 25 front kicks, 25 roundhouse kicks, 25 side kicks, 25 back kicks; Day 2 - 25 of each; repeat to infinity. Then you will never dig deep into any kick.

But on the other hand, if you do:

• Day 1 - 70 front kicks, 10 roundhouse kicks, 10 side kicks, 10 back kicks; Day 2 - 10 front kicks, 70 roundhouse kicks, 10 side kicks, 10 back kicks; continue the pattern. Then you will dig deep into each kick, but also maintain the others. Day 2, Day 3, and Day 4 you still do your front kicks, and over the 4 days you still do 100 front kicks. But this way you're not going 4 days between front kicks, and on Days 2, 3, and 4, you'll remember the lessons you learned about the front kick on Day 1.
• Day 1 - 100 front kicks, Day 2 - 25 of each, Day 3 - 100 roundhouse kicks, Day 4 - 25 of each, continue the pattern. In this case, you're only going a day between front kicks. You're really digging deep on odd days, and you're giving every kick equal focus on even days.

Going back to Bruce Lee's quote, I'd personally add a third segment to it. "Fear more the man who has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times, than the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks one time. But fear even more the man who has practiced 10 kicks 1,000 times."

On the other hand, if you have a specific use for one specific kick, and you don't feel the other kicks would fit your fighting style, then by all means - focus on that kick. If you want to be a pugilist and only use the roundhouse kick for leg kicks, or only use the front kick as a push kick, then by all means - focus on the one you plan to use. If you want to use both of those, and don't see much use in your game plan for the side kick or back kick, then just do front kicks on odd days and roundhouse kicks on even days. The further you spread out your practice, the harder it's going to be to maintain each kick.

 

[Flying Crane]

Obviously. And any seasoned martial arts practitioner, or even a beginning practitioner, will know more than one kick. I learned three different kicks on my first day. In this thread Im not talking about how many kicks you know, Im talking about how many kicks you train with.

Bruce didn’t just know more than one kick. He TRAINED more than one kick.

And that quote by Bruce wasn’t meant to be taken literally. He was making a point that if you spread yourself too thin then you won’t develop skill. The actual numbers don’t matter, and what is too thin for one person could be daily routine for another.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you learn 4 kicks on your first day, and only ever practice one of them, then you only know one kick.

I’ll go one further and say if you learned four kicks on your first day then you ought to find a new teacher because this one is an idiot.