Strikes, blocks, locks and holds? That's kind of obvious isn't it? Must be a good reason why we don't teach Kata in LINE and combatives training.
Training methodologies of Karate
- Thread starter mccainvb
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Strikes, blocks, locks and holds? That's kind of obvious isn't it? Must be a good reason why we don't teach Kata in LINE and combatives training.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Not understanding it isn't a good reason. But you kinda are teaching kata just in smaller bits and prices or as we like to call Bunkai
If you say so boss.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
In fact the Marine Corps replace LINE with:
MCMAP draws influences from several disciplines including boxing, jujitsu, judo, sambo, krav maga, karate, aikido, eskrima or arnis, hapkido, taekwondo, kung fu, and kick boxing.[7]
So wait they used all these old fashioned useless arts full of dancing and hourse stances to create the new hand to hand system for the Marine Corps. Hmmm strange.
I think this pretty much sums up the discussion. One would wonder why your in a thread discussing the training methods of karate though? Everything in modern SD systems was in kata first. All of it. Whether it is PCR, SPEAR, Boatman, LINE, Krav etc..it all derived from kata.
But okay.
To all the Karateka in the thread though, good replies and information. Big thumbs up.
I have both L.I.N.E and MCMAP instructor certifications. I'm sorry but there is no kata involved at any level
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
I believe the point being made was that all things LINE and MCMAP is within kata.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Sure it is you just don't see it. Everything you learned and teach is found in Kata.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Right none of these systems "invented" anything new. It just took bits and pieces of traditional systems package them up called them something new and then try to distance themselves from the original by putting the original down as old ineffective or dancing
Bingo. S.P.E.A.R. is a good example (I'm an instructor in this system for our agency). It is a fantastic force-on-force/flinch response/gross motor skill system. But I've seen the same exact thing in a pre-WWII H2H Army combat manual (IIRC it was Lituanian or somewhere around there). And it came from karate kata before that.
Nothing new under the sun and all that
Zero
Master Black Belt
I have been training for over 20 years (I am 43). The foundation for what I do started when I was in the marine corps (20 years). I gained a passion for combatives through my military occupation and the last 4 years of my career I was a LINE Instructor. I was heavily involved in different styles of Boxing, Judo, Krav Maga with other guys in the military so self defense has been apart of my everyday life for my entire adult life. Having been deployed much of that time I have been around quit a bit of violence. Obviously I don't come from a TMA background but I have been around scores of people who have been failed by TMA instructors. I'm not bashing karate just how it is taught within the context of self defense and apparently what I think is just normal banter is seen by some as highly offensive. Certainly didn't intend to rile people up
Thanks for that information and perspective on where you are coming from. From that one would hope you have enough experience to "roll with it" when faced with certain situations, although it does seem, as noted by others, that you are commenting on something pretty much based on hearsay, ie the lamentations of others rather than your own experience of karate/kata failing you (it does seem a bit of a step for you to be making such comments - but hey, it doesn't bother me one way or the other, I couldn't care less what you or others thought of a particular style if I am getting from it what I need).
Truth is, there are plenty of people that just can't, or don't, cut it in karate or any martial art (or any activity that requires physical and mental dedication) and maybe some of those have come your way. Unlocking and accessing more traditional MAs may be relatively time consuming when compared to a more compressed soley SD focused modern application so hopefully they get from you what they could not elsewhere - either from a poor karate school/teacher or due to their own short comings.
For some reason I keep having to repeat the fact that my criticism has nothing to do with style or techniques of any TMA. Pretty much everything I teach tactical wise is a strike, block, hold or throw from some other martial art. Kata isn't needed IMO and most in my profession agree with that assumption despite the fact that most of them have multiple years of TMA training WITH KATA. If it has value to a lifelong practitioner I believe you 110% but I have to get my clients comfortable with defending themselves in months not years and there is no way on earth you will EVER convince me that kata will achieve that. There is really nothing for me to understand about it or open my mind up to. If what I am instructing doesn't cut it for my clients they will stop paying me agree? And trust me I'm not cheap by any means.
That is a shame because kata will enable one to successfully defend themselves, in many cases, in less than the 'months' it now takes you. In fact, many principles of kata are easily learned and more importantly, retained in long term memory due to being based upon gross motor responses. Certainly one can train a kata for many years, even a life time. But these are more advanced principles that, while useful in SD, are not needed for a majority of SD situations. Too be honest, if it is taking you months to teach practical self defense then you're doing something very, very wrong. Not meant as a slap in the face, but practical SD doesn't take months to learn. WWII combatives, one of the most useable and effective H2H systems ever created took about a weekend to learn. Based on gross motor skill and rote skill sets it is retained in long term memory. Boatman's edged weapon defense (I'm an instructor) is about 16 hours long and is the only documented edged weapon program that I'm aware of in the world that has the level of success that it does. And again, and even more importantly, it is retained in long term memory.
And they are all found in kata
Kata is like an onion. Peel to the layer that is useable for the situation and length of time you intend to train. But the first layer is just fine for cooking.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Despite your level of skill, you don't know what karate is, simple as that. No biggie. None of us know about everything. I certainly don't. I'm just glad others more eloquent than me have taken the time to hint about what kata and karate is, so those who ARE interested in studying kata as a means of reaching high skill themselves know it is and will continue to be a viable tool to train martial arts and they can look for resources to help them accordingly.
Peace.
That is a shame because kata will enable one to successfully defend themselves, in many cases, in less than the 'months' it now takes you. In fact, many principles of kata are easily learned and more importantly, retained in long term memory due to being based upon gross motor responses. Certainly one can train a kata for many years, even a life time. But these are more advanced principles that, while useful in SD, are not needed for a majority of SD situations. Too be honest, if it is taking you months to teach practical self defense then you're doing something very, very wrong. Not meant as a slap in the face, but practical SD doesn't take months to learn. WWII combatives, one of the most useable and effective H2H systems ever created took about a weekend to learn. Based on gross motor skill and rote skill sets it is retained in long term memory. Boatman's edged weapon defense (I'm an instructor) is about 16 hours long and is the only documented edged weapon program that I'm aware of in the world that has the level of success that it does. And again, and even more importantly, it is retained in long term memory.
And they are all found in kata
Kata is like an onion. Peel to the layer that is useable for the situation and length of time you intend to train. But the first layer is just fine for cooking.
I seriously don't think you have the slightest clue what you are talking about. That or you have some sort of reading comprehension problem.
EddieCyrax said:
I think these sort of posts are missing the point of the anti-kata argument. The argument is not that the techniques contained within kata are no good. The argument is that the training methodology of kata is not effective. You can agree or disagree with that point, but it helps to know what argument is actually being made.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I don't think they are missing the point. I suppose it depends on what your mind is using to fill in the blanks on what both gentlemen are writing.
Every kata has you getting off-line from an attack and then blocking and countering it with your own offense. There can be some disagreement with what the 'block' and 'strike' really mean among the cognoscenti, but I think most people would agree that you can interpret forms to the most basic level of avoid, block/check, strike.
So it follows, at least in my mind, that if you practice the full form you are practicing kata. If you break out the same meaning of the form to practice avoid, block/check, strike with a partner, you are doing kata. And if you are working the same repetitive motion on a heavy bag, or in the air, or on something like a wing chun dummy as a flow drill of sorts, you're still doing kata. This is what I think both gentlemen above imply when they say the newer SD systems are still tied into kata and TMA, no matter how it is sliced.
Perhaps it's not your opinion or thoughts that are causing a problem, but the manner of delivery. One of the shortcomings of forum discussions is that it's textual. Words only. But most of our real human communication takes place in the non-verbals that surround the words. Those are gone here, so sometimes, an opinion comes across much more strongly stated than intended, because it's not softened with that smile or wink that might accompany it in a face to face discussion.
colemcm
Orange Belt
Unless I'm mistaken, I think Steve's point is that his job is to get an individual to be able to defend themselves somewhat effectively within a very short period of time. Since the benefits of training kata don't become more apparent until later on in an individual's training (and I do believe that there are definite benefits that are gained from kata), they fall outside of what he would include in his curriculum.
If this is his point, then I understand it. As a Tai Chi instructor, if I was approached by someone who told me that they had to learn to defend themselves within a very short period of time, I would recommend to an art that wasn't Tai Chi. It's not that I think Tai Chi is ineffective as a martial art (which would make me wonder what the hell have I been doing for the last 15 years), it's that it takes more time to understand the underlying principles of Tai Chi than a person with a pressing need for self defense has.
Then again, maybe I am misunderstanding his position after all.
If this is his point, then I understand it. As a Tai Chi instructor, if I was approached by someone who told me that they had to learn to defend themselves within a very short period of time, I would recommend to an art that wasn't Tai Chi. It's not that I think Tai Chi is ineffective as a martial art (which would make me wonder what the hell have I been doing for the last 15 years), it's that it takes more time to understand the underlying principles of Tai Chi than a person with a pressing need for self defense has.
Then again, maybe I am misunderstanding his position after all.
Very fair analysis......and respectful. Must be that Tai Chi background ;-)
Tai Chi is something that I would really like to bring into the fold. The striking principles are phenomenal
