Traditional TKD Dwindling

[Hanza]

Over the years I have noticed that more and more mcdojo's keep popping up all around the US. Most of them being olympic style TKD (WTF style). I have went to a few of the to check out the training just to find a very sad sad thing. The training in tkd today is horrible (by my standards) And they keep on making more and more rules for sparring and competitions! It is becoming really really sad to see a martial art once used in the military to fight with turned into a childrens game.

What happened to the tough training!? The good old days when there used to be everything allowed in Tae Kwon do. Leg kicks, take downs, grappling, punches and kicks to the head, less padding. And also, the training has gone down the drain. We used to do body hardening techniques! The old rolling pin on the shins and bashing forearms... What happened to that?

I recall the stories that were told of the Hwa-Rang who's kicks were so swift that they were often mistaken for swords. And their punches were so strong that they could go through wooden armor and still kill their opponent.


Sorry if i am offending anyone, i am not trying to dis Tae kwon do. It is my own style as well. I just would like to see things go back to the way they were.

But if they cant, i wish they would atleast have a place that dedicated itself to this type of training. Tae kwon do used to give muay thai a run for its money in brutality. But not anymore. And i would just like to see that happen.

I am also fully aware that most people just want to join it for the "excercise" or "defense" and do not want to get hurt. But in my opinion, if you want excercise, go to a gym or something. And as for the defense, if you do not train hard, then you will hit the ground hard when it comes time to defend yourself.

I am training in that way for those of you who are wondering. I really hope i did not offend anyone.

I just want to know what you guys think.

~Hanza

 

[exile]

Over the years I have noticed that more and more mcdojo's keep popping up all around the US. Most of them being olympic style TKD (WTF style). I have went to a few of the to check out the training just to find a very sad sad thing. The training in tkd today is horrible (by my standards) And they keep on making more and more rules for sparring and competitions! It is becoming really really sad to see a martial art once used in the military to fight with turned into a childrens game.

Hanza, I could not agree with you more. There are dojangs and individual instructors who teach TKD as a hard, angular real combat art---my instructor is one; our lineage is Song Moo Kwan and the technical content is very close to the Shotokan component of its roots---but you have to look hard and long to find them. And if you don't start off lucky by finding such a dojang, you may never realize just how much has been sacrificed in the process of turning TKD into Olympic-sparring foot-tag.

What happened to the tough training!? The good old days when there used to be everything allowed in Tae Kwon do. Leg kicks, take downs, grappling, punches and kicks to the head, less padding. And also, the training has gone down the drain. We used to do body hardening techniques! The old rolling pin on the shins and bashing forearms... What happened to that?

In two words: Olympic glory. And it's not just TKD. Sport karate has undergone the same development. I'm not going to attack or criticize people who do sport competition in these arts---there's too much denigration in the MAs as it is---but I do believe that diversity is a sign of the health of a skill, art, craft or whatever, and that diversity has been shrinking steadily in TKD training, so far as I can tell, from the time that ring competition became the `public face' of TKD.

But there are counter-tendencies. Have you looked at the work of Simon John O'Neil and Stuart Anslow on the realistic combat applications of TKD hyungs, or the research of Iain Abernethy on Karate kata that so obviously influenced both of those two TKD guys, or the general resurgence of interest in Asian MA patterns/forms as the record of effective fighting systems, with `leg kicks, take downs, grappling, punches and kicks to the head'---and more: sweeps, neck twists, eye and groin strikes, throws and even surplexes (which Gichin Funakoshi himself was aware of and taught)?...the list goes on. There is hope!

I recall the stories that were told of the Hwa-Rang who's kicks were so swift that they were often mistaken for swords. And their punches were so strong that they could go through wooden armor and still kill their opponent.

I myself am a bit skeptical of the legendary history of the Hwarang---the documentary evidence is, I think, just too frail to support much in the way of solidly-based conjecture about just what they did. But we don't need the Hwarang. We have the ROK Black Tigers of the Korean War and the Marines of the Vietnam war to attest, with plenty of excellent documentation, to the lethal effectiveness of TKD as a combat art.

Sorry if i am offending anyone, i am not trying to dis Tae kwon do. It is my own style as well. I just would like to see things go back to the way they were.

I don't think you need to worry about that. The KMA section of MT seems (to me, anyway) to be on the same page as you in terms of the virtues of the traditional, combat-effective applications of these arts.

But if they cant, i wish they would atleast have a place that dedicated itself to this type of training. Tae kwon do used to give muay thai a run for its money in brutality. But not anymore. And i would just like to see that happen.

I am also fully aware that most people just want to join it for the "excercise" or "defense" and do not want to get hurt. But in my opinion, if you want excercise, go to a gym or something. And as for the defense, if you do not train hard, then you will hit the ground hard when it comes time to defend yourself.

I am training in that way for those of you who are wondering. I really hope i did not offend anyone.

I just want to know what you guys think.

You won't get any quarrel from me on these points, Hanza! I've no problem myself with people who do MAs as aerobic exercise, but I think that there is a vast amount more to those arts that needs to be preserved for those who are willing to pursue the training style you support.

And as long as you're personally courteous towards those whose opinions you differ from, you shouldn't be in any danger of offending anyone on MT. We pretty much all like each other here, but people have strong opinions that sometimes run head-to-head against each other. Sometimes you just have to agree to differ. No biggie, eh?

 

[Bret Hinds]

The combat training and the study of the forms are the main parts in our school. We train for some tournaments and we kick butt, the way we train is the way one would fight. Not the musical interp. one calls forms in some tournaments. Based on core historical values, we still do palguye. When we fight it is Hands, Feet and Power. Head shots are normal for all ranks! we get in to trouble sometimes at tournaments because of the head shots and back fists. We maybe old school but we love it! All the best in the arts

 

[stoneheart]

I don't even blame it so much on the sport TKD schools. You have to train hard to even dream of competing at the Olympics. It's the daycare dojangs I feel that give TKD a bad name.

 

[searcher]

I agree wholeheartedly. Given that not ALL schools are that way, but I see more and more going that direction. The key is to not let your school go down that path.

 

[zDom]

... What happened to the tough training!? ...
Tae kwon do used to give muay thai a run for its money in brutality. But not anymore. And i would just like to see that happen ... if you do not train hard, then you will hit the ground hard when it comes time to defend yourself. .... I just want to know what you guys think.

Yea, it is sad, isn't it?

There are still a few left who train TKD like a combat art, but I'm rapidly getting the message (thanks to the Internet) that we are so far and few between that most people don't even believe we exist.

I personally would put my TKD (and a few TKDists I know in this area) up against any Muay Thai stylists.

I've pretty much retired from TKD to focus on training hapkido but I still love REAL TKD and it breaks my heart to hear people put it down — mostly because the things they are saying are mostly true

I think part of the problem is there isn't really enough people nowadays willing to endure old-school hardcore training to keep the doors of a dojang open.

I think a possible solution as an instructor is to cater to kids and the average joes for the most part to pay the bills but keep your eyes open for those special types who DO want the real stuff and then teach them in the old ways so we can at least pass it on to one more generation.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Hanza, I could not agree with you more. There are dojangs and individual instructors who teach TKD as a hard, angular real combat art---my instructor is one; our lineage is Song Moo Kwan and the technical content is very close to the Shotokan component of its roots---but you have to look hard and long to find them. And if you don't start off lucky by finding such a dojang, you may never realize just how much has been sacrificed in the process of turning TKD into Olympic-sparring foot-tag.




I myself am a bit skeptical of the legendary history of the Hwarang---the documentary evidence is, I think, just too frail to support much in the way of solidly-based conjecture about just what they did. But we don't need the Hwarang. We have the ROK Black Tigers of the Korean War and the Marines of the Vietnam war to attest, with plenty of excellent documentation, to the lethal effectiveness of TKD as a combat art.

So true. My first TKD instructor was a former ROK officer (Korean war veteran) and our training was MUCH more severe and well-rounded (we spent more time as white belts learning how to fall than in learning how to kick above the waist) than the sport-oriented training I later got in the ATA. To each his own. Both have their place, but there MUST be both for an art to survive, IMO.

 

[wade]

OK, this goes to Exile, I was in Viet Nam with 1 Bn 1st Marines, S-2 scout recon section. If you go to their website you will see pictures of me there.
Sgt Wade Lewis. Anyway, even though I trained in TKD at that time and I did work with the ROK Marines and I did see a little combat, 1 each Purple Heart, 1 each Cross of Gallantry, I really don't ever remember using TKD in actual combat. Who knows, maybe I just forgot, it was a kinda busy time in my life. Anyway, yeah, thinking about it I gotta admit TKD did help me mentally if nothing else. After I returned to the World I did continue, still do and still having fun. Anyway, I teach Olympic style TKD and Krav Maga. I find that it not only works with adults that want to train hard corp but is great with kids that are just getting into the the arts. There are levels and there are levels. How long would (you)-you-meaning anyone) have lasted if someone advanced came on to you at full power when you were first starting? No matter how talanted you are you still have to start at the beginning to get to where you want to be, eh?

 

[terryl965]

There are still some of us Old Scoolers around if you look hard enough.

 

[IcemanSK]

There are still some of us Old Scoolers around if you look hard enough.

Yes there are a few of us left.

 

[MSUTKD]

That is for sure. Good TKD training will not die on my watch!

 

[mango.man]

I guess I am curious what is the definition of "Traditional TKD Training"?

Does it involve corporal punishment in the dojang?
Does it involve endangering a students health or well-being?

"Bashing Forearms" and "Rolling Pins on Shins" that is 19th century techniques and science has shown the dangers of such things. Yes they may have once been acceptable training methods but not today.

My child was once struck with a wooden baton when another child showed up late for class without calling ahead. Well not just my child, but all the black belts in the class. It left a welt on her roughly the size of a plum. Does that mean she was in a traditional school? After all, the excuse that was given was that was the way the Grandmaster was taught, that was the way the Grandmaster taught the instructor and therefore that was how the instructor was going to teach his class. Sounds like tradition to me.

But this homie don't play that. If I ever hit my child in such a manner I would be thrown in jail. And I made it very clear to the instructor that if he ever did such a stupid thing again that I would have him thrown in jail. I then went to the Grandmaster and made it very clear to him that if such a thing ever happened again that not only would I have the instructor thrown in jail, that I would sue the Grandmaster for everything he was worth and with 4 schools and over 600 dues paying students, he is worth a lot.

We have since left that "Traditional TKD Dojang" for this and a variety of other reason. People do not need to be beaten with batons, forced to bash forearms or have their shins abused with rolling pins to understand the deep and holistic meaning of TKD or any martial art.

 

[stoneheart]

The arm and leg conditioning issue aside, I do think a reasonable amount of physical contact is necessary in karate/TKD. Any martial artist should know what it is like to be hit and be given the opportunity to overcome the discomfort and sometimes anger resulting being hit.

This obviously has gray areas in America today with the majority of martial arts students being children. For that reason, I do not train in dojos that cater to the needs of minors.

 

[IcemanSK]

I define "traditional TKD" as a good solid workout, form & technique as very important, & developing character in students by a caring instructor. No corporal punishment involved! But rather, teaching the tenents of TKD as just as important as technique. My sig says it best. I think instructors need to show that they care about their students as people, not just as people who put $$ in our pockets.

 

[wade]

Iceman, nice reply, I completely agree. As for stoneheart, I agree with you on the contact issue. That is why I teach Olympic style TKD, when the students spar, 4 year olds or adults, they follow WTF rules, ie: ho-goo, head guards, ect and they hit as hard as they can. They will get enough of the conditioning for contact when they spar. When I first started (1968), it was pretty brutal and when I first started teaching I was the same way. But to hit a student, youth or adult, as a punishment is wrong. If the only way an instructor can control a student is by beating them up they are doing something wrong. If the attitude is that bad and they won't change, show them the door. If the student just screws up in class, comes late or what ever, punish them in a manner that will be helpful to their training. Pushup, extra kicks, ect. Mangoman, I would have left too.

 

[mango.man]

Yes this is a combat art / combat sport and physical contact should be expected. But "conditioning" just for the sake of "you need to know how it feels so you won't be shocked by it when it happens in real life" is a cop out in my opinion.

If you want to teach my kid what it feels like to get hit, then get in the ring and spar. Don't tell my kid to go "bang your skull on that brick wall for 5 minutes so you will understand how to deal with it should someone throw a brick at your head when you leave here today."

And sport TKD-ists are just as dedicated (some, including myself would argue more dedicated) to learning proper form and technique as "traditional" TKD-ists. It is just that the forms and techniques they employ are different from what you might be used to seeing if that is not your cup of tea.

Finally, part of being a good sportsman in any sport, TKD or otherwise, is understanding and living by the tenents of TKD. Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self Control, Indomitable Spirit. Which of those is lacking in Steven Lopez or any of the other great sport TKD-ists out there today?

 

[stoneheart]

Well, I certainly wouldn't have any child practice any intensive kotekitae (the arm banging). Children's bones and muscles are still developing - I'm not sure any toughness instilled with kotekitae outweigh the risk in scarring.

It's interesting to read that a TKD school still practices arm conditioning. I thought this was a method largely used only by Chinese and Okinawan arts.
http://www.burlingtonkarateandkobudo.ca/kotekitae.htm

 

[Hanza]

I understand where everyone is coming from on the phsical pain point of view. But we are not talking about children here, i was talking about people who wanted it, who wanted the hardcore training. And as for the "science has shown the danger of doing such things" well, science has shown the dangers of alot of things. Personally,in my opinion, i think that if you cant take it then go find a daycare/ exercise dojang.

No offense.

But if i had a kid, and he wanted to, i would teach him that way. I think it is all a matter of whether you fear pain, or not.

 

[mango.man]

I think my ultimate point is if you choose a dojang that is about the infliction of pain, and I choose a dojang that is about producing an Olympian it does not make your school any better than mine. They just have different goals and methods of achieving said goals.

My child trains in sport TKD. For 7 years we followed along the road of the more "Traditional" path. Emphasis on poomseh (both Taegeuk and Palgwe) and discipline and tradition and honoring the mystical Grandmaster regardless of what boneheaded decisions he made.

I can tell you that in the past year or so that we have changed to a sport focus, my child has left more blood, sweat and tears on the mat than in all those years of "traditional" training in martial arts. That dedication and devotion to be the best is what continues to push her today. It frankly amazes me that she is so into it. 6, sometimes 7, days a week she is in the dojang training hardcore for a minimum of 90 minutes. Anywhere from 1500 to 2000 kicks of all types and every one with strength, power and speed. Sometimes she cries during the hour drive home. Sometimes she sleeps on the hour drive home. Sometimes she criticizes herself on the hour drive home. Sometimes she just smiles the whole hour drive home.

Knowing nothing about you or your dojang, I cannot pass judgement on whether your training is any better or worse than that which my child receives. But to think that those practicing sport TKD do not understand what it is like to feel pain or are afriad of pain, well with all due respect sir, you are a nut if you think my sport TKD child does not understand pain or attends a mcdojang or a daycare facility because they focus on sport.

 

[matt.m]

OK, this goes to Exile, I was in Viet Nam with 1 Bn 1st Marines, S-2 scout recon section. If you go to their website you will see pictures of me there.
Sgt Wade Lewis. Anyway, even though I trained in TKD at that time and I did work with the ROK Marines and I did see a little combat, 1 each Purple Heart, 1 each Cross of Gallantry, I really don't ever remember using TKD in actual combat. Who knows, maybe I just forgot, it was a kinda busy time in my life. Anyway, yeah, thinking about it I gotta admit TKD did help me mentally if nothing else. After I returned to the World I did continue, still do and still having fun. Anyway, I teach Olympic style TKD and Krav Maga. I find that it not only works with adults that want to train hard corp but is great with kids that are just getting into the the arts. There are levels and there are levels. How long would (you)-you-meaning anyone) have lasted if someone advanced came on to you at full power when you were first starting? No matter how talanted you are you still have to start at the beginning to get to where you want to be, eh?

Semper Fi Leatherneck....I got out a Sgt. in 97. I did 2 meds, Haiti, Albania, Liberia. Look, I agree. There are a lot of pretty TKD schools. However, there are good ones still. Some people just want flash, that is not the art. That is the sport, I do not like the sport.

I am with you in sentiment.