Showing honor and repect

[TKDmel]

Years ago when I took my first step on the MA path, honor and repect was taught in every class, by word, actions, and example. The teachings my master taught were taken seriously by me and I strive to live up to them each and every day. There in lays the problem. My school is small, but growing and other than the owner, there is only 1 actual paid staff member, the manager. She runs the after school program and will be recieving her BB in a month. Day classes will be starting soon and she will be teaching some of them. My position is, that, if I should attend these classes, should she defer to the higher ranking student out of respect for their rank? In years past there was no question that the highest ranking student should be at least offered the honor to lead or not. I have extensive experience teaching classes and at times would like to lead the class if only to try and pass on by word, example and actions, what I have learned through the years. Am I totally off base here?

 

[searcher]

I attend classes on a regular basis that are taught by lower ranking instructors than myself. I will never ask them to defer to me, I feel that it would be wrong of me to expect them to do so. If they ask my advice or for some assistance then I will give it. Otherwise, I am just a student waiting to be taught. If you are wanting to teach some of these classes then you should make them aware of your interest and start teaching.

 

[The Kidd]

We all can learn, when you take a class you are the student. This will help out her (because she can be intimidated that you are in the class) and be an example for the other students. If she asks for help or your opinion by all means help but only if asked, if this will be hard for you to do dont go to the class.

 

[TKDmel]

I attend classes on a regular basis that are taught by lower ranking instructors than myself. I will never ask them to defer to me, I feel that it would be wrong of me to expect them to do so. If they ask my advice or for some assistance then I will give it. Otherwise, I am just a student waiting to be taught. If you are wanting to teach some of these classes then you should make them aware of your interest and start teaching.

Again I must reference my masters teachings, as respect was very important to him as it is with me. In most MA's respect and honor are a prevailing ideology/tenet of the art and in the cultures that brought these arts to the world. We show respect by bowing to our senior belts, as they are the ones we learn from and without their guidance there would be no advancment. In a way we are thanking our seniors for helping us to achieve what ever it is, that is important to us in the MAs.
Our master sometimes had to travel abroad and at those times the classes were taught by the senior most BB. No disrespect was given or taken. It was just a way of saying "I acknowledge your experience and would be honored for you to lead class." Very often the senior BB would say "no thank you" and that would be that. But when they did teach the class, all the students had the benefit of that BBs experience.

I love TKD not just to practice it for myself, but to give back to others the way my seniors gave to me. It is not a question of wanting to teach classes, since as a black belt, I teach by my words, actions and example every minute of every day.

 

[terryl965]

TKDMel Lat start off with a few questions:

1st DO you feel uncomfetalble with a lower Belt teaching you?

2nd If so why>

3rd If you would like to help out with classes do they school you attend know this?

I ask for one reason and that is this, you talk about respect and dignity but if you feel the under belt is not worthly of teaching you, are you not giving them the respect they need. I not saying this is happening but it does appear that way to me right now.

When I go to another school I'm there to train not teach so I do not care about my rank just about the training I'm recieving. I have even been ask to wear a white belt while training no problem it is there school and there rules.
I have always been given respect by those teaching me for most of them know me and know I have been doing this a long time but still I'm a student.

I hope you can find a common grond so you can have inner peace with the training you are recieving.
Master Stoker
Just Terry

 

[Ninjamom]

I was in a tournament once where I overheard a teen student talking about how she hoped a fellow-competitor whom she didn't like would really mess up on her board-break, so that she would win. I called her on her lack of respect and sportsmanship, and for my trouble got a reminder that she was a black belt, and I was not (as in, "who are YOU to correct me?). My, how I hate having to remind young students that I am more than willing to match my grey hair against their black belt, any day of the week!

My point, as had been said before, is that there are many reasons for respect to be given and received, and rank is only one of them. If the Office Manager is your Kwan Jang Nim's representative on location, then whatever respect you do or do not show her is a direct reflection of your respect level for him. Each of us should show mutual respect for our journey along the martial 'way'. And if you desire to teach, I don't think you would be out-of-line to let the Office Manager know that you are available to help teach if needed, and then leave it to her discretion whether she takes you up on the offer or not.

 

[ajs1976]

TKDMel,

There was a similiar situation at the TKD school I attend a while ago. The assisant instructor that was leading the classes was a 1st or 2nd Dan and occassionally a 3rd Dan would come to class. It seemed to be a little awkward at first, but what happened was we would bow in with the instructor leading the class and then to the higher belt. At that point the instructor would offer the class to the 3rd Dan, who would in turn politely decline the offer. He would take the class and assist when asked.

My position is, that, if I should attend these classes, should she defer to the higher ranking student out of respect for their rank? In years past there was no question that the highest ranking student should be at least offered the honor to lead or not.

I would discuss the situation with the school owner and see how he wants it handled.

I have extensive experience teaching classes and at times would like to lead the class if only to try and pass on by word, example and actions, what I have learned through the years.

You don't have to be leading the class to do this.

 

[ajs1976]

I was in a tournament once where I overheard a teen student talking about how she hoped a fellow-competitor whom she didn't like would really mess up on her board-break, so that she would win. I called her on her lack of respect and sportsmanship, and for my trouble got a reminder that she was a black belt, and I was not (as in, "who are YOU to correct me?). My, how I hate having to remind young students that I am more than willing to match my grey hair against their black belt, any day of the week!

How old was the teen? (Late or early teens?)

 

[matt.m]

Wow, what a superb topic. I will answer with two examples.

I was a Sgt. in the Marine Corps. My specialty was artillery, even though I was asked on more than a few occassions to work with the infantry during combat. "Don't ***** every Marine is a rifleman" etc. etc.

Anyway, I would defer leadership to a Corporal if he was more knowledgeable than I. I had no problem with that, the person would always ask for my help or knowledge, if applicable. That is what a team effort is all about. One of the best tennants of leadership is principal #2: The best leaders are great followers.

There are times in class where Purple and Brown belts ask for help or opinion from me....I am a 5th gup green belt, they are 3rd gup purple or second gup brown. Is there shame in that? No, not at all.

In Moo Sul Kwan we have a tradition of "If a class is being led, who cares the dan rank.....another dan walks in, the class is called to attention and bows to the dan that just walked in."

My dad is a 5th dan in hapkido. If he is teaching a class he leads and wears the Master belt. If someone else is leading a class he is attending and they are a 1st dan he just wears a plain jane black belt a gets in with everyone else.

Leadership is a lonely place, always a position to be humble with.

I myself have a dan in Judo, however I have the opinion that if someone is more qualified to teach and lead or if its their slot to teach class then by all means I am not going to stop you or worry about it. Also, if you are worth your salt everyone will know it anyway. It doesn't matter where you stand in class.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would think that you would be best just to attend and train. I am sure the Office Manager will also help ask for you to teach. However that choice should be up to her. (It is her class afterall)

 

[TKDmel]

I was in a tournament once where I overheard a teen student talking about how she hoped a fellow-competitor whom she didn't like would really mess up on her board-break, so that she would win. I called her on her lack of respect and sportsmanship, and for my trouble got a reminder that she was a black belt, and I was not (as in, "who are YOU to correct me?). My, how I hate having to remind young students that I am more than willing to match my grey hair against their black belt, any day of the week!

My point, as had been said before, is that there are many reasons for respect to be given and received, and rank is only one of them. If the Office Manager is your Kwan Jang Nim's representative on location, then whatever respect you do or do not show her is a direct reflection of your respect level for him. Each of us should show mutual respect for our journey along the martial 'way'. And if you desire to teach, I don't think you would be out-of-line to let the Office Manager know that you are available to help teach if needed, and then leave it to her discretion whether she takes you up on the offer or not.

During classes, the head instructor (we both were trained under the same afore-mentioned master) will stop class and show respect to any higher BB that comes in and gladly offers the class to the higher belt. There is no problem between any of us BBs that years ago trained together. It seems to be the "newer" generation that takes offense to any other person that may be more knowledgeable. I have offered my assistance to the manager only to be totally disregarded in front of other students. I offered because she was teaching some techniques either incorrectly or could not answer a question that another student had.

Now to address those that train no matter who the instructor is. If I put this in terms that many people can understand, then I am paying for a service that can not be provided by a junior belt, and that is, to train for my next dan. I am paying for someone more knowledgeable than me to show me the correct moves for my forms and my self defense. Clearly impossible if a junior belt is the instructor. It is also a requirement of advancement that all BBs must teach a certain # of hours to be eligible to test.

I, myself, am not taking the latter point of view, and only mention it because practically speaking it can be a concern to many people. I think the work the manager does with the childrens classes is commendable and I do respect anyone who teaches. I myself would be hard pressed to teach children all day long.

I guess it just the values and "way of doing things" that was instilled in me by a great man and a great master.

 

[Kacey]

There is more than one form of rank. When I was a II Dan, I used to go work out at another instructor's studio (she was a I Dan) because I was getting ready to test and needed all the practice I could get. It did not matter that I outranked her - it was her class, and she was the instructor, no matter who showed up. It would not matter now if, as a IV Dan, I show up at a class being taught by a 5th gup - the instructor, like the captain of a ship, is in charge - no matter who shows up.

As others have said, if you want to help teach, then make sure she knows you are willing to assist. If your concern is that you outrank her, and you feel that she should defer to you - why? Because of your relative ranks? Anyone can learn from anyone - if they are willing to do so. One of the 8 examples of poor integrity from the Encyclopedia is "The student who feels ashamed to seek opinions from his juniors" - so if the issue for you is integrity, I don't believe it applies unless you refuse to learn from the office manager.

 

[Marginal]

I have extensive experience teaching classes and at times would like to lead the class if only to try and pass on by word, example and actions, what I have learned through the years. Am I totally off base here?

It's the instructor's class. They can give it away if they choose, but they are under no obligation to bow out the instant a higher rank shows up to train.

On top of that, there's no assurance that a higher rank means that the rank holder knows better how to teach within the organization's guidelines. Nothing more annoying and disruptive than having a 6th dan correct every move on every color belt pattern simply because they haven't been keeping up on standards.

 

[TKDmel]

There is more than one form of rank. When I was a II Dan, I used to go work out at another instructor's studio (she was a I Dan) because I was getting ready to test and needed all the practice I could get. It did not matter that I outranked her - it was her class, and she was the instructor, no matter who showed up. It would not matter now if, as a IV Dan, I show up at a class being taught by a 5th gup - the instructor, like the captain of a ship, is in charge - no matter who shows up.

If I were wanting to practice for a test then that is fine, but if I need to be shown the curriculum for my next test and the instructor is my junior, then how do I learn from that? I totally agree that the flow of knowledge is a 2 way street between junior to senior and vice-versa, but there are limitations.

As others have said, if you want to help teach, then make sure she knows you are willing to assist. If your concern is that you outrank her, and you feel that she should defer to you - why? Because of your relative ranks? Anyone can learn from anyone - if they are willing to do so. One of the 8 examples of poor integrity from the Encyclopedia is "The student who feels ashamed to seek opinions from his juniors" - so if the issue for you is integrity, I don't believe it applies unless you refuse to learn from the office manager.

As stated earlier, I have offered to assist or help in whatever way I can, but my offer was summarily dismissed. The only time I question her abilities is when I know what is being taught is wrong, so it is not a question of refusing to learn from someone who is knowledgeable, but rather from someone who is not up to the task in certain situations.

 

[morph4me]

If I were wanting to practice for a test then that is fine, but if I need to be shown the curriculum for my next test and the instructor is my junior, then how do I learn from that? I totally agree that the flow of knowledge is a 2 way street between junior to senior and vice-versa, but there are limitations.

As stated earlier, I have offered to assist or help in whatever way I can, but my offer was summarily dismissed. The only time I question her abilities is when I know what is being taught is wrong, so it is not a question of refusing to learn from someone who is knowledgeable, but rather from someone who is not up to the task in certain situations.

If you need to be shown the curriculum for your next test wouldn't it make sense to go to a class taught by a senior person? How do you learn the curriculum for your next test by teaching her class?

Did you pull her to the side and discuss what she was teaching wrong or did you say it in front of the class? Was it wrong or just a different way of teaching it? Respect works both ways.

I think that as a sign of respect she should have her class show you respect, but to expect her to turn over her class to you, is undermining her authority and position as the instructor of that class.

 

[Bret Hinds]

When I teach, I let the head student at the time lead in warm ups and drills if they wish. I will let the lower dan teach if they want. I will help in teaching if they ask for help or if the class is large where I will take the a part of the class and split it with the other dans. If the class is small I will be quiet and let the lower dan teach. You can learn a lot by watching your other dans teach. As with all our classes we will show respect to both student and teachers at all times! All the best in the arts

 

[Kacey]

If I were wanting to practice for a test then that is fine, but if I need to be shown the curriculum for my next test and the instructor is my junior, then how do I learn from that? I totally agree that the flow of knowledge is a 2 way street between junior to senior and vice-versa, but there are limitations.

As morph4me stated, if you need to learn material for your next test, then why are you coming to a class taught by someone who can't teach you the material? And how will teaching the class yourself teach you the things the instructor present cannot?

As stated earlier, I have offered to assist or help in whatever way I can, but my offer was summarily dismissed. The only time I question her abilities is when I know what is being taught is wrong, so it is not a question of refusing to learn from someone who is knowledgeable, but rather from someone who is not up to the task in certain situations.

You started this conversation by discussing integrity - but you are showing signs that your opinion of yourself is overcoming your own integrity. I have bolded one sentence in your post to make a point: your instructor chose this person to teach this class, and must have had a reason. Questioning her fitness to teach this class is questioning your instructor's integrity in choosing her. Since you have offered to assist with this class, you must be available to do so - so why didn't your instructor ask you to teach it? Do you know for certain that the things being taught "wrong" are not being taught "wrong" for a reason? They may be, and they may not. They may or may not be important details at the rank of the students being taught. As an instructor (and I've been an instructor for 15 years) I teach key aspects of techniques - and sometimes teach them in a way that is "wrong" for more senior students, or that omits some technical detail - to get students to perform a certain way, so that I can get a certain level of performance, and then I refine it. I may teach part of a technique, or simplify one; I may omit some details that are introduced at higher rank.

I find your concern with integrity admirable. I find your questioning of the integrity of this situation problematic. A ship's captain is in charge of the ship - even when more senior ranked officers come aboard. Likewise, the instructor of a class is the instructor of a class - the rank of the students is not relevant, although the instructor may choose (but is in no way required) to relinquish instruction to a student under the circumstances you describe. I have worked out in classes where I outranked the instructor; I have taught classes where students have outranked me - at which point I have offered to let them take over, and they have declined, often because they were assigned by our sahbum to teach the class. Neither situation bothers me, nor would I presume to question my sahbum's choices in the matter.

 

[Elayna]

I have been in the position where there were those that I outranked in the terms of Belt class that taught a class I was in. But the way I look at it is this...
To have true, Honor, Respect and Dignity in the MA we must first understand that there is something to learn from everyone. From someone who has no belt the best of the Grand Masters.
To have respect in this situation I think would not to assume that you should be asked to lead or teach because you are of higher rank, but to respect the teacher enough to know that they are indeed the teacher and they may know something about this "lower rank" student that you do not.
Also, to learn to be humble is also a form of Honor and dignity, not to others, but to yourself.
And that is something wonderful for others to learn from you. Be ok in your position and with who you are. Your time will come. Be patient and wait. Out of respect for yourself, your teacher and the person that is trying to become more.
Because you never know...We dont always know as much as we think we do.

Just a little advice from a mom and someone who has been there and done that if you know what I mean.
Take care.


Elayna.

 

[Ninjamom]

How old was the teen? (Late or early teens?)

Early. 13/14.

Did you pull her to the side and discuss what she was teaching wrong or did you say it in front of the class? Was it wrong or just a different way of teaching it? Respect works both ways.

I think that as a sign of respect she should have her class show you respect, but to expect her to turn over her class to you, is undermining her authority and position as the instructor of that class.

Bingo!

 

[tsdclaflin]

The best way for YOU to show honor and respect is to avoid the class. Even if the instructor is teaching incorrectly, it is not your place to correct them publicly.

I trained at a school were I disagreed with one of the instructors that outranked me. I avoided his classes and attended classes where I trusted and respected the knowledge of the instructor.

If you have lost faith in all the instructors, it is time to find a new school (which I finally did).

You may also want to discuss your concerns with the head instructor or the owner of the school.

Good luck,